The Fourth Book of Kings; Iconoclasm and Iconophilia.

HamletOrHecuba

Came across this today.

18:3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did.

18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

18:5 He trusted in the LORD God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor any that were before him.

18:6 For he clave to the LORD, and departed not from following him, but kept his commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses.


Now given that God previously had done miracles through the Brazen Serprent (which was a type of Christ as we read in St John's Gospel) and yet God all blessed its destruction it would seem that God blesses both Iconoclasm and Iconophillia according to the circumstances.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

wolfsbane

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Came across this today.

18:3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did.

18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

18:5 He trusted in the LORD God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor any that were before him.

18:6 For he clave to the LORD, and departed not from following him, but kept his commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses.


Now given that God previously had done miracles through the Brazen Serprent (which was a type of Christ as we read in St John's Gospel) and yet God all blessed its destruction it would seem that God blesses both Iconoclasm and Iconophillia according to the circumstances.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

God never gave it to be venerated/idolised/worshipped. He gave it as a focus for the Israelites to look to in repentance toward God. He promised to heal those who looked at it. Not that it was anything in itself. But later generations made it something. Made it a source of spiritual power - and so idolatry.

When we pray to images/idols, no matter in what guise, we sin.

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Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

HamletOrHecuba

wolfsbane wrote: »

God never gave it to be venerated/idolised/worshipped. He gave it as a focus for the Israelites to look to in repentance toward God. He promised to heal those who looked at it. Not that it was anything in itself. But later generations made it something. Made it a source of spiritual power - and so idolatry.

When we pray to images/idols, no matter in what guise, we sin.

Do you distinguish idolizing from worshiping? Clearly anyway veneration is different from worship.

God is Immaterial and was understood to be by the Old Testament- never the less the Old Testament did have "holy" material things that were venerated not least being the Temple itself and in particular the Holy of Holies.

HamletOrHecuba

The text also says to me that from the days of Moses himself incense was burned to the Brazen Serpent which suggests that it was acceptable to God when done from one vantage point but not from another.

wolfsbane

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Do you distinguish idolizing from worshiping? Clearly anyway veneration is different from worship.

God is Immaterial and was understood to be by the Old Testament- never the less the Old Testament did have "holy" material things that were venerated not least being the Temple itself and in particular the Holy of Holies.

Respecting God by treating what He says is holy as such, is different from bowing down to it. Nothing created is to be bowed down to. Even the Holy Temple was not an object of prayer. The pious prayed to the God who resided there.

Folk who pray to statues of Jesus, or Mary or other saints are in great error. The same error that perverted the purpose of the bronze snake into idolatry. Call it 'veneration' or whatever, it is idol worship.

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Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

wolfsbane

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

The text also says to me that from the days of Moses himself incense was burned to the Brazen Serpent which suggests that it was acceptable to God when done from one vantage point but not from another.

It most certainly was not so venerated in Moses' day. The text says 'unto those days' - that is, the days when the king destroyed it. That does not mean this worship began at its creation, just that it had began sometime later and continued till then.

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Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Doc Farrell

This may be of some value in educating any readers who agree with the above poster that one billion Catholics are idol worshippers.

http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac1001.asp

HamletOrHecuba

wolfsbane wrote: »

Respecting God by treating what He says is holy as such, is different from bowing down to it. Nothing created is to be bowed down to. Even the Holy Temple was not an object of prayer. The pious prayed to the God who resided there.

Folk who pray to statues of Jesus, or Mary or other saints are in great error. The same error that perverted the purpose of the bronze snake into idolatry. Call it 'veneration' or whatever, it is idol worship.

But I, by your great mercy, will come into your house; in reverence will I bow down toward your holy temple.

Psalm 5:7

Are you saying that anyone who uses a piece of Religious art during prayer is as much an idol worshiper as those who danced before around the golden calf?

Surely it can only be classed as idol worship if worship is actually given towards the statue as something Divine? Im not saying that Iconophilia doesnt have dangerous attached to it but by presuming a worse case scenario in all instances are you not over stating things and failing to distinguish attitudes that may be radically different?

HamletOrHecuba

wolfsbane wrote: »

Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

If we read that Bible verse along with Exodus 36 where God inspires Moses to fashion images of Cherubim for the Ark it becomes clear I think that it isnt a prohibition of all Religious Art though.

HamletOrHecuba

wolfsbane wrote: »

It most certainly was not so venerated in Moses' day. The text says 'unto those days' - that is, the days when the king destroyed it. That does not mean this worship began at its creation, just that it had began sometime later and continued till then.

I was talking about the veneration with incense as opposed to worship- for unto those days to me at least suggestions since soon after its fashioning but you are right it is vague.

qrrgprgua

wolfsbane wrote: »

Respecting God by treating what He says is holy as such, is different from bowing down to it. Nothing created is to be bowed down to. Even the Holy Temple was not an object of prayer. The pious prayed to the God who resided there.

Folk who pray to statues of Jesus, or Mary or other saints are in great error. The same error that perverted the purpose of the bronze snake into idolatry. Call it 'veneration' or whatever, it is idol worship.

we have had this discussion before. We don't pray to any object. We pray to God and God alone. We ask Mary to intercede.. but we don't pray to her as if she were a goddess. Imagery and Icons go back to the time of the Apostles. Christians who believed wanted to view the God who became man.. God became tactile, he allowed us to see him.. then and now via images that have been passed from generation to Generation. We don't pray to an image we pray to God. We kneel in prayer, as Paul kneel in Prayer. For this reason I kneel before the Father.....

Images focus our prayer, remind us for Christs suffering on the Cross.

HamletOrHecuba

Lets please not turn this into a Protestant versus Catholic food fight.

wolfsbane

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

But I, by your great mercy, will come into your house; in reverence will I bow down toward your holy temple.

Psalm 5:7

Are you saying that anyone who uses a piece of Religious art during prayer is as much an idol worshiper as those who danced before around the golden calf?

Surely it can only be classed as idol worship if worship is actually given towards the statue as something Divine? Im not saying that Iconophilia doesnt have dangerous attached to it but by presuming a worse case scenario in all instances are you not over stating things and failing to distinguish attitudes that may be radically different?

It is not as bad as pagan idol worship, if the intention is not to worship it. But the error remains - God has forbidden us from making images to pray to.

The excuse that one is not praying to the image but to the person behind it is irrelevant. One is using the image to pray through, and that only can be done by praying to it. The mental agility to keep the image as a mere bit of plaster while at the same time praying through it must be remarkable. Is this what most Catholics do?

Jesus Christ is the only 'image' of God we are to bow before. And that does not include an image of that 'image'. So there is no place for images in our prayers. We are to worship God in spirit and in truth.

BTW, bowing toward the Temple was bowing toward God who dwelt there - not using the Temple as an icon of God.

**********************************************************************
Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

wolfsbane

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

If we read that Bible verse along with Exodus 36 where God inspires Moses to fashion images of Cherubim for the Ark it becomes clear I think that it isnt a prohibition of all Religious Art though.

Quite so. But when folk bow to Cherubim or Bronze Snakes, then action has to be taken. The Presbyterians have an image of the Burning Bush draped in most of their churches. I see no problem with that. But if Presbyterians began to pray to/through the Burning Bush image, then idolatry would have entered their church.

If Catholics wanted to keep pictures/images of Mary on their wall as a reminder of this godly woman, that would be fine. One can see pictures and busts of famous Christians in many Christian homes and churches. But no one praying to/through them.

******************************************************************
Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

wolfsbane

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

I was talking about the veneration with incense as opposed to worship- for unto those days to me at least suggestions since soon after its fashioning but you are right it is vague.

Veneration with incense is worship - as the Christians knew who refused to accord that 'veneration' to Caesar and were martyred for their stand.

******************************************************************
Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

wolfsbane

qrrgprgua wrote: »

we have had this discussion before. We don't pray to any object. We pray to God and God alone. We ask Mary to intercede.. but we don't pray to her as if she were a goddess. Imagery and Icons go back to the time of the Apostles. Christians who believed wanted to view the God who became man.. God became tactile, he allowed us to see him.. then and now via images that have been passed from generation to Generation. We don't pray to an image we pray to God. We kneel in prayer, as Paul kneel in Prayer. For this reason I kneel before the Father.....

Images focus our prayer, remind us for Christs suffering on the Cross.

Could one get a fag-paper between this focussing and idolatry? Would any on-looker see the difference? Do most Catholics know the difference?

And how can you pray to the Father, if this focussing is needed - He is invisible and cannot be represented by an image. So if you can pray to the Father without use of an image, why invent such a dangerous practice for others you wish to talk to?

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Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

HamletOrHecuba

wolfsbane wrote: »

Could one get a fag-paper between this focussing and idolatry? Would any on-looker see the difference? Do most Catholics know the difference?

Yes I think they could, people can see how the Byzantine Orthodox have a much greater veneration of their Religious art than Copts or Roman Catholics
have for theirs- and if you talk to a Hare Krishna about how they regard their idols the difference will be even more stark.

I dont deny though that their can be elements of idolatry with the Roman Catholic world- for instance in Ireland a supposed "visionary" has been selling awful looking pictures for a lot of money claiming that these pictures if you buy one will protect you. That to me would count as idolatry.

HamletOrHecuba

wolfsbane wrote: »

BTW, bowing toward the Temple was bowing toward God who dwelt there - not using the Temple as an icon of God.

But God is omnipresent is He not? Surely the Temple was a God Blessed focus of worship of the immaterial and omnipresent God?

HamletOrHecuba

wolfsbane wrote: »

Veneration with incense is worship - as the Christians knew who refused to accord that 'veneration' to Caesar and were martyred for their stand.

Yes but they were being asked to burn incense to Caesar as a god- doing so in those circumstances would have been clearly acknowledging his divinity. People may bow to the Queen of England but as long as by doing so they are not recognizing her as divine I cant see how doing is a sin. Same with incense burning surely?

wolfsbane

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Yes but they were being asked to burn incense to Caesar as a god- doing so in those circumstances would have been clearly acknowledging his divinity. People may bow to the Queen of England but as long as by doing so they are not recognizing her as divine I cant see how doing is a sin. Same with incense burning surely?

Incense-burning, like bowing, can have secular uses. But doing so in a religious context is worship.

So if you burn incense in front of an image of Mary merely to make the place smell better, then OK. But I doubt it is ever used so. It is used to worship. Calling it veneration is like calling lying being economical with the truth.

If I burnt incense to the Queen of England, I would be guilty at least of misleading the on-looker into idolatry. Everyone knows that bowing to her is merely a mark of respect. Even so, bowing to an image of her would be the same error as burning incense to her.

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Jeremiah 44:16 “As for the word that you have spoken to us in the name of the Lord, we will not listen to you! 17 But we will certainly do whatever has gone out of our own mouth, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, were well-off, and saw no trouble.

wolfsbane

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

But God is omnipresent is He not? Surely the Temple was a God Blessed focus of worship of the immaterial and omnipresent God?

God in a special way dwelt in the Holy of Holies. That's why He ordered the nation to worship there.


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Jeremiah 44:16 “As for the word that you have spoken to us in the name of the Lord, we will not listen to you! 17 But we will certainly do whatever has gone out of our own mouth, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, were well-off, and saw no trouble.

wolfsbane

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Yes I think they could, people can see how the Byzantine Orthodox have a much greater veneration of their Religious art than Copts or Roman Catholics
have for theirs- and if you talk to a Hare Krishna about how they regard their idols the difference will be even more stark.

I dont deny though that their can be elements of idolatry with the Roman Catholic world- for instance in Ireland a supposed "visionary" has been selling awful looking pictures for a lot of money claiming that these pictures if you buy one will protect you. That to me would count as idolatry.

I agree that some people are more explicit about their worship of idols. But even the ordinary Irish Catholic of my generation seemed to have idolatrous ideas about their images.

That was compounded by their ignorance of the existence of the anti-image section of the Ten Commandments. I had one of my young Catholic peers deny such a thing was in the Bible. It seems the Catechism they used had shortened the commandment to merely forbidding worship of other gods, and omitting any reference to images. That was 50+ years ago, of course. Can any of our Catholic friends here confirm that?

******************************************************************
Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

tommy2bad

It seems the Catechism they used had shortened the commandment to merely forbidding worship of other gods, and omitting any reference to images. That was 50+ years ago, of course. Can any of our Catholic friends here confirm that?

True but we were explained how it meant making gods of idols because of course their were no other gods.

HamletOrHecuba

wolfsbane wrote: »

God in a special way dwelt in the Holy of Holies. That's why He ordered the nation to worship there.

So you accept the principle that God can be present in a special way in created things?

The Byzantine Orthodox would also argue that God dwells in Icons in a special way.

wolfsbane

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

So you accept the principle that God can be present in a special way in created things?

The Byzantine Orthodox would also argue that God dwells in Icons in a special way.

We know God dwelt in the Temple - because He said so. There are no grounds for believing Him to dwell in icons. It is man-made religion.

**********************************************************************
Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.