What's the point?

_Kaiser_

Here's a question.... should we ask the Admins to close this forum?

Now, I know that most (if not almost all) people reading this will of course instinctively say "hell no!!" (maybe with something like "debate is good" tacked on), but let's consider this for a minute. Let me also start off by saying that I've no political ties - not a member of any party, don't vote for the same crowd regardless.. I'm just "average PAYE Joe" (except my name's not actually Joe!)

In the wake of (only the latest) damning report on our political system, we've watched a parade of politicians deny allegations, make dramatic exits (before they were pushed) and had another set of them trying to score points along the lines of "we're not as dirty as you are" - but beyond all that.. what's really going to change? Does anyone here actually believe that anyone named in this report will ever see the inside of a jail cell? In fact, does anyone think that they'll even be "inconvenienced" at all in the fallout? Does anyone really believe that this report (again only the latest in a series) will force changes?

We got a massively expensive and long-winded report to tell us what most citizens already know - that our political establishment is riddled with corruption and incompetence from top to bottom - hell, I could've told them that and I wouldn't have charged €300 million for it!

But seriously... the problem is not the political establishment at all - that's merely the symptom. No, the problem is the Irish people. We all give out about "the system" and "the politicians" but that's for show. Given the same opportunity, I genuinely believe that most Irish people would do exactly the same things that they give out about their elected officials doing now - and that's a point that I take no pleasure in.

I've said this before on these Boards and I'll say it again - I believe that the Irish people as a race are not yet mature enough to govern themselves. We are too consumed by our own greed and selfish attitudes that "politics" doesn't extend much beyond our front door - maybe to the end of the road! - which of course is why we have TD's spending most of their time fixing local pot holes, or helping John and Mary with their planning application and so on rather than attending to the business of running the country!

It's this "me first" attitude - added to our Irish begrudgery and "cute hoorism" - that is the fundamental problem in this country and - let's be honest - it's not going to change as long as those responsible for making the changes are the very same people who benefit from the current arrangements.

"So what are YOU doing Kaiser2000?!" I hear you asking at this point (an attitude very amusingly put to music by Homer Simpson with his "can't someone ELSE do it?" fight against the Springfield garbage collectors). Well, in order to change a system you first have to join it and work from within, but again our Irish psyche instinctively rebels against change or non-conformist ideas - plus to join our (currently very broken) system you need money.. not something I have very much of as a PAYE worker at the moment!

Which in fact brings me to another point. I'm in my mid-30s (with the greying and receding hairline to prove it!) and I'm fortunate to currently be working again having been unemployed for a year in 2010. I pay my taxes, I pay my bills and I don't "screw" the system in any way (now be honest - how many of you are thinking "well aren't you stupid?" right now? Perhaps, but that's just another example of the mindset I'm talking about).

If *I* don't pay my ESB bill, or pay my rent, or tax my car I'll very quickly find myself cut-off, homeless and in front of a judge facing some real consequences.. why is that? At what point do we accept that certain people (cause that's all they are remember) are above or immune from these same rules that the rest of us must play by? What makes them "special" and worse, makes US think they're special?

I could go on and on and on -but I'm rambling now, the washing is done and ranting makes me hungry, so I'll come back to my original question - what's the point? Should we just accept that "democracy" in this country is hopelessly broken at this stage? Should we continue to accept that regardless of what soundbites are coming from "the top" it'll be business as usual, or should those of us who have had enough (and have the means) just leave this corrupt, bankrupt little backwater and try to find somewhere where politics and and citizenship at least works to a level where the "good of the country" isn't just a slogan? Does such a place even exist?

Who's going to change it? You??

Drumpot

I agree with your sentiments but not all of your post. .

Ireland is indeed still a relatively new democractic state but I dont see major differance from the UK (corruption rife - some politicians claimed expenses for a moat . . A moat!) or the U.S.A (wont even go into the corruption that goes on there and that doesn even factor in the complete extra level morons they vote - Palin was close to becoming the vice president! Nuff said).

Ireland is a victim of human nature that has a strong impulse for self interest, wanting more (in many cases at somebody elses expense) and not just doing whatever you can get away with, but doing so in a manner that you have justified to yourself.

Morals and principles are ideals, just as capilism is a marketing idea and the problem is usually the people implementing or "practising" these ideals. In truth, they hide behind these codes to further their own gains and completely ignore logic in favour of populist conventional "wisdom" that seems to make subjective debates more commonly engaged in then objective ones.

I have said to anybody who listen that the problem with politics is the values of the electorate (or lack of values!). The politicians of this country represent the electorate and mirror us all. Either we vote them in or we dont do enough to get better alternatives in. Absentee landlords is what we are in between elections and then after 4 years of sh*t we will be offered a nice budget , pre election , that the government knows will grease interest of the self vested electorate.

You cant teach to those who dont want to be thought or enlightened to their ironic disgust at politics. Look in the mirror, you decide what political culture exists in Ireland. To do nothin to change it is no better then doing something to abuse it.

If you have a drug problem, two of the most important things that you have to recognise to overcome your addiction is to awknowledge you have a problem and stop taking the drug. As an electorate, with "the anybody but FF" mandate we gave this government, we simply blamed our existing drug dealer for our "affliction" and simply replaced them with another dealer that promised we would never get bad gear off them!