ICF Construction

Bobs77

Hi All, I need some advice with an ICF build, can any one give me any indpendant advice on this is it a difficult build and is it worth it v's traditional build. Do you need a builder that has experience in this type of build, they are hard found in Cavan. Many thanks for any advice at all on this.

sas

Bobs77 wrote: »

Hi All, I need some advice with an ICF build, can any one give me any indpendant advice on this is it a difficult build and is it worth it v's traditional build. Do you need a builder that has experience in this type of build, they are hard found in Cavan. Many thanks for any advice at all on this.

Forget about it and look into Wide Cavity. There's quite a bit of info. on it on this site as well as several people who are currently building that way.

The typical ICF systems available here offer u-values easily achieved and bettered by wide cavity.

The render on the outside of ICF is expensive relative to traditional plaster.

External surface is less durable than blockwork.

I built with external insulation having dismissed ICF. I think the options have come full circle and now cavity construction has been brought up to date.

I hugely regret that I'm not starting now...

witty username

Hi OP, I did some projects with this around 2004-2005 when everyone was trying to keep blockies off the site, even back then ICF was almost on par with standard block and cavity cost-wise, only there was a learning curve to be overcome with how to build it. These days, not worth the hassle. As previous poster advised, wide cavity is a good way to go.

Poor Uncle Tom

Some of their roofing systems are worth looking at.

Seany1981

Hi Bobs77. Just wondering if you used ICF in the end and if you have any feedback. I am considering it for my own house next year. Seems ideal for a self built?

BE_MIEI

Steer well clear of ICF, in my experience its nothing but trouble.

Poor Uncle Tom

BE_MIEI wrote: »

Steer well clear of ICF, in my experience its nothing but trouble.

A rather broad sweeping statement, please explain.

manufan16

Bobs77 wrote: »

Hi All, I need some advice with an ICF build, can any one give me any indpendant advice on this is it a difficult build and is it worth it v's traditional build. Do you need a builder that has experience in this type of build, they are hard found in Cavan. Many thanks for any advice at all on this.

I am at slabbing and plastering stage of an ICF build and I would not consider it a difficult build if you put in the research but that could be said about any type build really.
I would say Yes you definitely need a builder/contractor with ICF experience esp at initial stages when the concrete is being poured as the last thing you want is some of the bracing coming free that holds the ICF walls in place while the concrete is being poured and you have concrete flowing all over your site.

Whichever ICF company you buy from Im sure they have a few contractors they use, talk to each of them first and I would not see your location as an issue as most would travel.

Good luck.

BE_MIEI

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

A rather broad sweeping statement, please explain.

The external render is too thin, highly susceptible to impact damage.
Repairs are expensive as they require specialist materials and labour.
Also, the system doesn't lend itself readily to any alteration or remodeling.

How do you fix your satellite dish?
Wall mounted television?
Internal shelving?
External side gate?
External water tap?
External lights?
Alarm box?
Etc, etc, etc.

Poor Uncle Tom

BE_MIEI wrote: »

The external render is too thin, highly susceptible to impact damage.
Repairs are expensive as they require specialist materials and labour.
Also, the system doesn't lend itself readily to any alteration or remodeling.

How do you fix your satellite dish?
Wall mounted television?
Internal shelving?
External side gate?
External water tap?
External lights?
Alarm box?
Etc, etc, etc.

It sounds like one particular supplier has made a bad impression with you.

I have worked with three different types so far and I've found substantial differences in each. Most now have fixing rails incorporated for fixing lights, shelves, presses, etc., etc.

Every type of construction has pros and cons, dismissing one type because it could be hard to remodel, if it's ever needed, could be seen as being too harsh.

BE_MIEI

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

It sounds like one particular supplier has made a bad impression with you.

I have worked with three different types so far and I've found substantial differences in each. Most now have fixing rails incorporated for fixing lights, shelves, presses, etc., etc.

Every type of construction has pros and cons, dismissing one type because it could be hard to remodel, if it's ever needed, could be seen as being too harsh.

The original poster asked for independent advice with respect to ICF Construction vs Traditional Construction. I have experience in both and gave my advice based on my experience. Whats the problem?

Poor Uncle Tom

No problem at all, just teasing out a broad sweeping statement you made, as I've already stated in post No. 7.

Seany1981

Thanks for all the Pros and Cons. I thinks there are as many disadvantages with ICF as there are with blockwork or timber frame but there seem to be more Advantages once all the details are ironed out. The main issue i have is with the external render. I have seen a number of ICF houses where you can see the joint betweent the ICF blocks coming through the render and hairline cracks are beginning to appear. Is it possible to get guarantees on the render?

Poor Uncle Tom could you PM me the names of the three ICF companies you have worked with and advise who you found the best.

just do it

BE_MIEI wrote: »

Steer well clear of ICF, in my experience its nothing but trouble.

Is this on a one-off build or experience gained from a number of builds? Any system built poorly will give trouble.

just do it

Seany1981 wrote: »

I thinks there are as many disadvantages with ICF as there are with blockwork or timber frame but there seem to be more Advantages once all the details are ironed out.

I looked at ICF and at one point it was my perferred option. However I've now swung towards wide cavity (250mm to be precise). I'm interested to hear why you think ICF is has advantages over wide cavity?

BE_MIEI

just do it wrote: »

Is this on a one-off build or experience gained from a number of builds? Any system built poorly will give trouble.

The shortcomings of this system, that I've listed in a previous post, do not rely on the quality of build, i.e. they exist when the system is built perfectly. The real and very serious problems arise when the system is built poorly.

Seany1981

I will be doing a lot of the work on site myself and i would be able to erect the ICF but would not be able to do the block work. Obvoiously i will have to be trained up by a supplier or installer prior to commencing. This will obviously save on the cost of a blocklayer . The other advantages i see are:

Easier to get good airtightness
Much quicker than blockwork
Good u-value
Better quality insulation
No thermal bridges
Structural guarantee - from some suppliers
Very solid construction
No need for basalt wall ties which are very expensive. €2.20 each and i would need approx 2,000 of them. If you can get a reputable engineer who is happy to go with stainless steel wall ties then you would save €1.60 per tie, but i haven't been able to find one.
I havent calculated the costs exactly but the ICF will save me in the region of €10k if i do the labour on it myself.

Seany1981

BE_MIEI wrote: »

The external render is too thin, highly susceptible to impact damage.
Repairs are expensive as they require specialist materials and labour.
Also, the system doesn't lend itself readily to any alteration or remodeling.

How do you fix your satellite dish?
Wall mounted television?
Internal shelving?
External side gate?
External water tap?
External lights?
Alarm box?
Etc, etc, etc.

Any of the internal issues you have listed are the same as if you had drylined internally. I think with a bit of planning any of the external issues could be avoided or resolved. Are there any other specific issues you ahve encountered? I am concerned about the plaster but need to look into it a bit more.

BryanF

Seany1981 wrote: »

I will be doing a lot of the work on site myself and i would be able to erect the ICF but would not be able to do the block work. Obvoiously i will have to be trained up by a supplier or installer prior to commencing. This will obviously save on the cost of a blocklayer . The other advantages i see are:

Easier to get good airtightness
Much quicker than blockwork
Good u-value
Better quality insulation
No thermal bridges
Structural guarantee - from some suppliers
Very solid construction
No need for basalt wall ties which are very expensive. €2.20 each and i would need approx 2,000 of them. If you can get a reputable engineer who is happy to go with stainless steel wall ties then you would save €1.60 per tie, but i haven't been able to find one.
I havent calculated the costs exactly but the ICF will save me in the region of €10k if i do the labour on it myself.

Who has worked out the details for you? What professional help will you have on site, (and not just signing certs)? in my experience there are several areas not thought out by the ICF companies. Air-tightness and thermal bridging at windows, eaves, threshold, roof steels, chimney etc. the integration of the different trades and protection of ICF at interfaces also needs to be managed carefully.

Seany1981

I'm still at very early stages at the minute. Just finalising design and planning application so have a bit more research to do. I would intend looking at all the details you have mentioned above and developing construction details for them all. Pre-pour checks would be completed by the ICF Supplier and i have plenty of carpenter friends who can give me a hand. Like i said i do need to look into it more but ICF seems like a good option at the minute.

just do it

Seany1981 wrote: »

Like i said i do need to look into it more but ICF seems like a good option at the minute.

I was in the same boat as you a few years ago Seany. But over the course of time I swung to full fill wide cavity construction as the best my preferred option. Theoretically I reckon EWI is the best but comes at a cost and I'm not confident enough that it will last 40 years never mind 100years.

Cavanjack

just do it wrote: »

Seany1981 wrote: »

Like i said i do need to look into it more but ICF seems like a good option at the minute.

I was in the same boat as you a few years ago Seany. But over the course of time I swung to full fill wide cavity construction as the best my preferred option. Theoretically I reckon EWI is the best but comes at a cost and I'm not confident enough that it will last 40 years never mind 100years.

Planning on building myself next year. Had myself convinced to build using EWI until I met a salesman selling it 6 months ago. He reckoned EWI not worth the money. Said I'd be better off with full fill cavity or better again ICF. So I'm back to square 1 again and thinking of going with the full fill wide cavity.

Seany1981

What do you mean by EWI?

Clseeper

EWI - External wall insulation

darragh_haven

I'm in the finishing stages of my ICF build. it'll be 2 years since i started and i've taken it slow, working out the details in advance of each stage. Delayed due to a baby, working in england, change of job and returning home to take over the farm.
I've been introduce to fixing system for external lights etc, by the plasterer who is a polish guy, he brought them in from germany. Now i'm getting them direct for myself. Specificallly designed for EWI and ICF, so that problem is fixed.
Anyone looking to pick my limited brains on the icf can pm me, or have a look at the house. I would also think EWi is a v good system on the outside of a concrete block system with a cavity.
Originall my block layer put me off pumping the cavity....:eek:

badgerwex

Hi sas. New to this so I need to ask a few questions if you dont mind. Does wide cavity build mean that you have to use external insulation too? What do you mean by u-values,and percentage wise how much more is the external render on an icf build compared to traditional plaster? Thinking of building an icf house but somebody mentioned a wide cavity build to me in passing. He may have mentioned a six inch cavity but i could be mistaken.