Grow your Own - Grapes?

bonehead

Hi

I am new to the whole Grow your own,
I have built a house and am doing my garden now, as part of it, i've just put in 4 raised beds.
(I've just sown my Spuds last weekend!)

I was in the garden center and saw them selling Grape Vines.
I would love if the back wall of my house was a grape vine hedge, I love the idea of fruit hedges instead of a laurel or something like that.

I'd love to brew my own wine. (I've done beers in the past)

But, here's the thing, Will Grapes grow in Ireland??
the wall is south facing and would get sun from about 2 -3 hours after sunrise for the day.

Has anybody done this before?
Will it work?

thanks

SNAKEDOC

there are varieties that will grow here and even the varieties that require warmer conditions can grow in a green house dedicated to vines. also you could grow the vine outside with the roots in a shed or green house for warmth. Have a nose around and ask in the garden centre for a variety that suits you. bare in mind though that vines do not make for hedges per say as at the end of the growing season a lot of the vine is trimmed down roughly 75% of the overall vine If i was trying to cordon off a garden with fruit hedge why not blackberry or raspberry. they will fill out and produce fruit year in yeer out without much care.

Micheal GIY

Good advice from snakedoc. Yes, people successfully grow vines in Ireland, including in the north west where you might expect less sunshine and heat. I only know of people growing them in a tunnel, greenhouse of conservatory though.

For productive hedging, which is a great idea, it depends on what kind of a height you want. Raspberries would make for a good block as a hedge after a few years (you can't beat thorns for keeping people out!). However, as you will be cutting them back each year, then you will never really have a thick hedge. An alternative would be to go for something like cobnuts or filberts - the cultivated version of hazel nuts. This means you get a proper hedge, but also a worthwhile crop. Good luck.

bonehead

Thanks For the replies.

I'm not too worried about the hedge filling out. it's the back wall of the garden and its in the country, so it's just a field behind me.

I had though about blackberries for it but the thorns put me off.

If there is a variety of Grape that will grow, I think I'll try it. I can anchor some guide wires from the wall for the vines to grow on , and after the season when we trim them back.
We can hang some nice things from the wires?? Or something like that.

I'm still considering some sort of mixed hedge for the rest of the house, the sides are quite long, just over 70 Meters. I was thinking of something that I can keep low as the site is quite high and my neighbor has planted Laurel on his side although it's not grown up yet, but that will form the barrier when it does.

I must look into the Cobnuts and fiberts that Micheal GYI has suggested, I've not come across these before.

It's great, I've a real blank canvas to work from and am getting loads of ideas from Magazines and here, are there any tricks I'm missing?
Do you know if there is a specific Mag I should check out?

Sgt Pepper 64

bonehead wrote: »

Hi

I am new to the whole Grow your own,
I have built a house and am doing my garden now, as part of it, i've just put in 4 raised beds.
(I've just sown my Spuds last weekend!)

I was in the garden center and saw them selling Grape Vines.
I would love if the back wall of my house was a grape vine hedge, I love the idea of fruit hedges instead of a laurel or something like that.

I'd love to brew my own wine. (I've done beers in the past)

But, here's the thing, Will Grapes grow in Ireland??
the wall is south facing and would get sun from about 2 -3 hours after sunrise for the day.

Has anybody done this before?
Will it work?

thanks

Google is your friend! (search growing grapes in ireland)

Black Hamburgh is the variety to go for apparently.
I know they grow in the UK so theres no reason they cant be grown here

http://www.garden.ie/howtogrow.aspx?id=995
http://www.garden.ie/howtogrow.aspx?id=365
http://www.gardenplansireland.com/forum/about739.html


This site is by far my favourite!

http://irishherault.wordpress.com/2010/01/06/irish-vineyards/

Northumbria

bonehead wrote: »

Hi

I am new to the whole Grow your own,
I have built a house and am doing my garden now, as part of it, i've just put in 4 raised beds.
(I've just sown my Spuds last weekend!)

I was in the garden center and saw them selling Grape Vines.
I would love if the back wall of my house was a grape vine hedge, I love the idea of fruit hedges instead of a laurel or something like that.

I'd love to brew my own wine. (I've done beers in the past)

But, here's the thing, Will Grapes grow in Ireland??
the wall is south facing and would get sun from about 2 -3 hours after sunrise for the day.

Has anybody done this before?
Will it work?

thanks

Not sure if you've planted them by now, but I'm replying anyway.

Don't go for any of the classic wine varieties. Ireland is really only suited to the newer hybrid varieties.
Try Triomphe d'Alsace (one of the best in cool, wet climates), Rondo, Solaris, Seyval Blanc, Leon Millot. Out of those, Solaris and Triomphe are probably the best and they might ripen in the open, definitely should do if they were against a south facing wall.

If they are under-ripe and overly acidic when they've been picked then sometimes you can sometimes get away with chaptalisation (adding sugar before the wine ferments).

If you need any advice on a particular variety or set of varieties then just ask.

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

Google is your friend! (search growing grapes in ireland)

Black Hamburgh is the variety to go for apparently.
I know they grow in the UK so theres no reason they cant be grown here

http://www.garden.ie/howtogrow.aspx?id=995
http://www.garden.ie/howtogrow.aspx?id=365
http://www.gardenplansireland.com/forum/about739.html


This site is by far my favourite!

http://irishherault.wordpress.com/2010/01/06/irish-vineyards/

It's grown here - but always in a greenhouse, a very bad choice outside. It will never ripen outside in Ireland, and very rarely in Southern England unless there is some pretty drastic climate change. It is more at home in Iberia and Southern France.

Supercell

Northumbria you sound like you know your stuff. Last year I got a Vanessa which I grew in a pot against a southwest facing wall . it grew pretty vigorously but no grapes (was only about 7 inches tall when I got it and was about 10 foot tall by autumn). I'm going to give it another year before giving up on that variety- is Vanessa a poor choice for Ireland?
This year I also got a Himrod plant I intend to try growing along the same wall - should I hold up more hope for that one?

I think i'll definitely get hold of a Triomphe d'Alsace and a Solaris too and give them a go as well after reading your post above.

Northumbria

Northumbria you sound like you know your stuff.

Yes, I have multiple vines myself. have done a lot of research and I'm in the process of launching a website about grapes in cool summer climates.

Last year I got a Vanessa which I grew in a pot against a southwest facing wall . it grew pretty vigorously but no grapes (was only about 7 inches tall when I got it and was about 10 foot tall by autumn).

Many grape vines are vigorous and the UK and Ireland have good conditions for the vines themselves to put on a lot of growth, but grapes are more variable. Also, a grape vine in very fertile soil will often put on a lot of growth at the expense of fruit. Don't provide too much nitrogen, although most vines suitable for the UK and Ireland will grow fast regardless of whether they're fed.

7 inches tall at time of purchase suggests that it is either a 1 or 2 year old plant - they fruit from the age of 4 onwards, sometimes 3 if you're lucky. It might fruit this year, if not then give it a couple more years. I wouldn't chuck it out if it doesn't fruit anyway, they make nice ornamental plants - just put it wherever you want and grow it for the foliage.

I'm going to give it another year before giving up on that variety- is Vanessa a poor choice for Ireland?

Yes. I don't have that variety myself, but the I have data for it from Oslofjord in Norway. The summers there aren't too different from Ireland's, one or two degrees warmer perhaps. But it is considered a poor variety there outside - it ripens very late (October).
This suggests that it requires more heat and sunlight to ripen earlier than it gets there. Also bear in mind that the grapes will stop ripening and will be slightly damaged if there is a bad frost in October. So outside in Ireland it might ripen against a warm wall perhaps, but I think in most cases it would only ripen in years with an "Indian summer".
It is described as a very nice tasting grape though and it is a seedless table grape, not a wine grape. It is one for the greenhouse.

This year I also got a Himrod plant I intend to try growing along the same wall - should I hold up more hope for that one?

Basically the same as Himrod - seedless table grape that fails to ripen in Norway and in the UK is only recommended in Southern England.
American hybrid varieties (which your two are) were developed for cold hardiness in winter, that's not a problem in Ireland or Britain. Summers across most of the USA a perfect for grapes, their issue is the cold in winter. Here it's getting them to ripen grapes in summer that is the issue, and for that the French, German and Russian hybrids are the best.

I think i'll definitely get hold of a Triomphe d'Alsace and a Solaris too and give them a go as well after reading your post above.

Triomphe is considered bomb proof even in Northern England and will ripen when others fail. It is considered a inferior wine on its own though, it is usually blended with other varieties. What sort of wine do you want to make?

Varieties for white wine: Solaris, Seyval Blanc (both very good wines and very good in cool climates - Seyval's nickname in English vineyards is Save all because it is reliable even in bad years)

Varieties for red wine: Rondo (very good wine and good in cool climates. Makes a good eating grape too), Triomphe d'Alsace (will put up with cool, wet summers better than others), Muller Thurgau.


The varieties you already have can make a wine but it won't be too good and it won't age well.
If you need any more advice I'll be happy to help.

Supercell

Thank you so much, great help and advice, I''d give you two thanks for that post if I could!
I have limited space in my greenhouse and am unable to grow indoors so need varieties that crop well and are edible outdoors.
Don't have enough space to grow wine making amounts so table grapes is what I'm after. I think I'll get a couple of Rondo vines to start off with for red grapes. Would like a couple of green ones too - would any of the ones ones ones on this UK site be OK for outside growing in Ireland (Dublin)?

Northumbria

Supercell wrote: »

Thank you so much, great help and advice, I''d give you two thanks for that post if I could!
I have limited space in my greenhouse and am unable to grow indoors so need varieties that crop well and are edible outdoors.
Don't have enough space to grow wine making amounts so table grapes is what I'm after. I think I'll get a couple of Rondo vines to start off with for red grapes. Would like a couple of green ones too - would any of the ones ones ones on this UK site be OK for outside growing in Ireland (Dublin)?

Ah, I see. I was recommending varieties for wine making because you said you wanted to make wine in the first post.
Well as table grapes I must say that Triomphe d'Alsace are poor. They are small with thick skins and lots of seeds. It is good for blending in wines, but I doubt many would enjoy eating it.

On that site I only saw three that I'd recommend for table grapes in Ireland. The rest are mostly wine grapes (can be eaten, but will be quite astringent, seedy, thick skinned and small) and American table grapes that need warmer summers to ripen (Southern England is their limit).
There are often dual purpose varieties sold though, it is just that most nurseries selling vines don't know enough about grapes to sell ones that really are suitable as table grapes.

The 3 on the bottom of the first page - Regent, Rondo and Phoenix are good dual purpose grapes though, Rondo in particular.
Rondo ripens the earliest and has the best quality as a table grape and also makes a decent wine too - so Rondo is the best one in my opinion. Rondo beats the others because it ripens earlier than them - in september (the others in october), so hopefully missing any early bad weather. All grapes are usually seeded, even most table grapes outside of the English-speaking world contain seeds. They aren't too big or too many in Rondo and it is good in cooler climates and quite reliable.

So forget about Triomphe if you want an eating grape, go for Rondo which does wine and eating grapes.
For green eating grapes, go for Phoenix. Again, it will make a decent white wine too.

Supercell

Big thanks again Northumbria. Have ordered Rondo and Phoenix as suggested. I do intend to make wine eventually but that will be in the next house i get which will definitely have a much bigger garden! Getting experience with these vines now should be very useful for then.

onedmc

My vines grow very rapidly and produce a good crop of small but sweet grapes however they die back considerably each winter loosing a lot of the previous years growth. Otherwise they are very nice in the garden and give nice autumn colour. Varity is golden champion.


The blackberrys are a nightmare to manage putting on 8 to 10 foot of growth each year that has to be cut back. Quality of the fruit is hit and miss, too much rain and they are big and sour and a short dry spell they drop really quickly. Never really got the hang of them

bonehead

Thanks everybody

Where can I buy Triomphe d'Alsace in Ireland?
I'm gonna plant it this year and see what happens!

Northumbria

onedmc wrote: »

My vines grow very rapidly and produce a good crop of small but sweet grapes however they die back considerably each winter loosing a lot of the previous years growth. Otherwise they are very nice in the garden and give nice autumn colour. Varity is golden champion.

You're meant to cut them back in winter anyway. They stay more productive if they're kept under control and with a lot of new wood.
One of the problems in our climate is that grape vines tend to be too vigorous and that many varieties suitable for our climate are naturally vigorous anyway. High vigor can lead to low productivity since the plant invests its energy in leaf and branch production, so they are pruned each year.

There's not much to it, it depends on how you grow yours though. Mine is two permanent branches from the trunk, the rest are cut off at the end of the year and the branches trimmed back to a meter each. I took 70% off mine this last year, it grew very large indeed (I should have controlled it better really, pinched out new shoots after a point).

bonehead wrote: »

Thanks everybody

Where can I buy Triomphe d'Alsace in Ireland?
I'm gonna plant it this year and see what happens!

I'm not sure. You could probably get it from the UK, shipping won't be too much. Like I said though, it is a wine variety and the grapes are small and seedy, I'm not sure you'd want to eat them.










I have no idea where you can buy it in Ireland, you'll just have to search gardening websites.

redser7

Nice photos. So is what we are seeing there mostly new wood? What time of year were they taken? What varierty is that?
I have a white Aldi one I bought last year in a pot and want to plant it out soon. It never said what variety it was so not sure whether to try it in the tunnel or outside.

Northumbria

redser7 wrote: »

Nice photos. So is what we are seeing there mostly new wood? What time of year were they taken? What varierty is that?
I have a white Aldi one I bought last year in a pot and want to plant it out soon. It never said what variety it was so not sure whether to try it in the tunnel or outside.

Yes, apart from the thick branches which are left permanently to direct the grape vine in the right direction. Most grape vines fruit on the current years growth, previous years growth becomes unproductive over time.

Those photos were taken in early September 2012 and it is Triomphe d'Alsace ripening.

I have that Aldi vine too (along with my other named varieties). I gave it to my parents and I'm training it against a shed up a single wire for them. If it's good then great, but if not then I haven't lost anything.
What part of Ireland are you in? I'm thinking it will be some French, German or Eastern European wine grape, probably not the best thing for our climate or the best for eating, but it might be okay.
If you want to produce grapes off it then try it in the tunnel, it might always be a variety that requires more heat than Ireland has got. It looks to be a 1 year old plant though, it will only begin fruiting when it is 3 years old so you might want to buy an established plant of a good, named variety for the tunnel.

johndoe99

bonehead wrote: »

I had though about blackberries for it but the thorns put me off.

you can buy thornless blackberry trees, think i have the 'Chester' variety.

redser7

Northumbria wrote: »

Yes, apart from the thick branches which are left permanently to direct the grape vine in the right direction. Most grape vines fruit on the current years growth, previous years growth becomes unproductive over time.

Those photos were taken in early September 2012 and it is Triomphe d'Alsace ripening.

I have that Aldi vine too (along with my other named varieties). I gave it to my parents and I'm training it against a shed up a single wire for them. If it's good then great, but if not then I haven't lost anything.
What part of Ireland are you in? I'm thinking it will be some French, German or Eastern European wine grape, probably not the best thing for our climate or the best for eating, but it might be okay.
If you want to produce grapes off it then try it in the tunnel, it might always be a variety that requires more heat than Ireland has got. It looks to be a 1 year old plant though, it will only begin fruiting when it is 3 years old so you might want to buy an established plant of a good, named variety for the tunnel.

Thanks a lot for that. I'm in Dublin. I might just put it in a large pot for now and see how it goes. Might treat myself to a more mature one next autumn after doing more research. Cheers

Supercell

Northumbria may i ask for your expertise one more time please?

I watched this video on youtube before planting the vines i got and followed it to a tee for the Rondo vine when I planted it but then I panicked a bit and thought it seemed a bit brutal to prune to three buds so I planted the Pheonix vine without pruning. I've read that vines can only be pruned during winter and early spring and am wondering if I killed my Rondo by pruning it to the third bud as suggested on the video?
Am I OK and if so should i do the same to the Pheonnix vine?

Northumbria

Supercell wrote: »

Northumbria may i ask for your expertise one more time please?

I watched this video on youtube before planting the vines i got and followed it to a tee for the Rondo vine when I planted it but then I panicked a bit and thought it seemed a bit brutal to prune to three buds so I planted the Pheonix vine without pruning. I've read that vines can only be pruned during winter and early spring and am wondering if I killed my Rondo by pruning it to the third bud as suggested on the video?
Am I OK and if so should i do the same to the Pheonnix vine?

It should be fine, they're quite resilient. When did you prune them? I wouldn't bother pruning Phoenix this time, just prune it next winter when it has established itself a bit.

Northumbria

This is personally how I'm going to grow two of my new vines this year. It's a very classic system and still used in steep vineyards in Germany (especially the Mosel valley).
It's perhaps not quite as efficient as training along wires, but sticking a stake in the ground is very easy and it's more convenient if the vine is in a pot too (which some of mine are for now).

I trained my grape vines along wires and pruned using the cordon system last year and it is a pain in the arse, certainly the average person wouldn't want to do it. So up a trellis or up a stake would be best for most people.
If up a trellis then keep two canes and prune down to them each winter, leaving only the those two. Each summer the vine can be allowed to spread all along the trellis as it inevitably will.
If up a stake then either just train the vine straight up as one or branch it out into two canes, this is often recommended for cooler climates in case the vine dies back (the theory being that one cane will survive).