Govt & Media shamelessly lying about Household Charge numbers

regress

There are about 1.8 million households liable to register for the Household Charge with about 1.73 million required to pay. However the fugue given out by the media is only 1.6 million. The govt says this is the number it expects to register and it us now routinely reported by media as number required to register.

Similarly the govt is releasing figures for those that have registered for Charge but is refusing to say how many have paid. Media is routinely reporting this registration figure as number who have paid.

Is this laziness, sloppy journalism or is there a hidden agenda.

Outkast_IRE

regress wrote: »

There are about 1.8 million households liable to register for the Household Charge with about 1.73 million required to pay. However the fugue given out by the media is only 1.6 million. The govt says this is the number it expects to register and it us now routinely reported by media as number required to register.

Similarly the govt is releasing figures for those that have registered for Charge but is refusing to say how many have paid. Media is routinely reporting this registration figure as number who have paid.

Is this laziness, sloppy journalism or is there a hidden agenda.

Expect the deadline to be extended and continued threats in various guises.

The_Conductor

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Expect the deadline to be extended and continued threats in various guises.

The deadline won't be extended- they have already a prescribed series of fines which kick in depending on how late the fine is paid- alongside legislation enabling them to dock the payments in several different ways from refuseniks.

None of us like paying taxes- and this is a tax- we got complacent in the good times when the government was rolling in it- now that times are tough and future revenue streams need to be secured- this is just something we are going to have to grit our teeth at, and pony up.

Ireland was almost unique in a western context in not having a property tax- its also one of the reasons that the ongoing costs associated with property ownership here are considerably lower than elsewhere- and why renting is reviled.........

We need to raise the funds- or alternatively cut our expenditure by a commensurate amount (on top of the 16.5 billion still coming down the line).

If we are not going to take a mature attitude to running our affairs- we may as well throw in the towel and hand over the keys to the EU/IMF. However harsh the medicine our own crowd are coming up with- you can be certain the medicine the troika would decree, would be a million times worse........

regress

Plenty of threads discussing merits of Houshold charge in general. I was hoping someone might have an opinion on the misinformation being spread by the media.

Bonbon12

regress wrote: »

Plenty of threads discussing merits of Houshold charge in general. I was hoping someone might have an opinion on the misinformation being spread by the media.

Where are you getting the number of 1.73 million homes from?

Outkast_IRE

smccarrick wrote: »

The deadline won't be extended- they have already a prescribed series of fines which kick in depending on how late the fine is paid- alongside legislation enabling them to dock the payments in several different ways from refuseniks.

None of us like paying taxes- and this is a tax- we got complacent in the good times when the government was rolling in it- now that times are tough and future revenue streams need to be secured- this is just something we are going to have to grit our teeth at, and pony up.

Ireland was almost unique in a western context in not having a property tax- its also one of the reasons that the ongoing costs associated with property ownership here are considerably lower than elsewhere- and why renting is reviled.........

We need to raise the funds- or alternatively cut our expenditure by a commensurate amount (on top of the 16.5 billion still coming down the line).

If we are not going to take a mature attitude to running our affairs- we may as well throw in the towel and hand over the keys to the EU/IMF. However harsh the medicine our own crowd are coming up with- you can be certain the medicine the troika would decree, would be a million times worse........

I have nothing against a property tax based on a fair system , but this €100 euro placeholder charge is a load of ****e ,there are plenty of existing models in other countries that work one of those should of been implemented immediately and they could of had the details sorted by the time the next budget comes round.

And there is already murmers of the household tax deadline being extended with things such as the leaflet problems and misinformation to the public being reasons. If they are going to insist on this charge then they will need to do something to sweeten its public perception.

regress

Bonbon12 wrote: »

Where are you getting the number of 1.73 million homes from?

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/how-many-properties-will-be-liable-for-the-household-charge.html

Zamboni

regress wrote: »

Plenty of threads discussing merits of Houshold charge in general. I was hoping someone might have an opinion on the misinformation being spread by the media.

It could be just sloppiness. If anything I have noticed an anti-household charge sentiment on various radio programmes.
Unsurprisingly, RTE seem to be playing ball and are keen to highlight more adherance.
This will the biggest public display of civil dosobedience/non-complaince in modern Irish history and I personally think it is fantastic.
I am not liable for it but I most certainly would not pay it.

smccarrick wrote: »

If we are not going to take a mature attitude to running our affairs- we may as well throw in the towel and hand over the keys to the EU/IMF. However harsh the medicine our own crowd are coming up with- you can be certain the medicine the troika would decree, would be a million times worse........

I tend to agree with you on most things but not on this point.
Our operating deficit needs to be dealt with by drastically cutting public expenditure on state employment and welfare.
If the CPA was properly tackled and welfare was addressed in last years budget and a progressive property tax was properly introduced and communicated I doubt there would as much antagonism.
I agree we need to have a mature attitude in running our own affairs but ignoring the white elephants in the room and begging property owners for spare change is not mature in my opinion.

Pawwed Rig

Zamboni wrote: »

Our operating deficit needs to be dealt with by drastically cutting public expenditure on state employment and welfare.
If the CPA was properly tackled and welfare was addressed in last years budget and a progressive property tax was properly introduced and communicated I doubt there would as much antagonism.
I agree we need to have a mature attitude in running our own affairs but ignoring the white elephants in the room and begging property owners for spare change is not mature in my opinion.

This will be done in the next few budgets. Bear in mind the household charge is only worth €160million which is chumpchange when you look at the size of the problem we have. It is also probably the lowest tax that has been introduced. For example the 2% VAT increase will cost each of us alot more than that per annum.

To answer the OP I think there is alot of misinformation being published in the media. They generally seem to be actively encouraging people not to pay it by giving much more column inches to the nay sayers.
I also don't understand why they want to extend the deadline? I paid mine yesterday and it took under 10 mins. i didn't like paying it but this is the mess Irish people have gotten themselves into.

Victor

regress wrote: »

There are about 1.8 million households liable to register for the Household Charge with about 1.73 million required to pay.

Those numbers are guesstimates.

However the fugue given out by the media is only 1.6 million.

The media is notorious for glossing over on numbers. They only deal in soundbites, not details.

The govt says this is the number it expects to register

Are you sure its an official number?

and it us now routinely reported by media as number required to register.

I imagine they are taking the figure of the expected income of €160m and dividing it by €100.

regress

I think initially the govt said they expected 1.6 m out of 1.8 m to register. However the number they expected to register is now being reported as number required to register. In effect lowering bar by 200,000.

The_Conductor

regress wrote: »

I think initially the govt said they expected 1.6 m out of 1.8 m to register. However the number they expected to register is now being reported as number required to register. In effect lowering bar by 200,000.

Its 1.84 million- based on the number of live electrical supplies in the country, with a presumption of 240-250k not being liable for one reason or another (ghost estates and a plethora of other exemptions).

The big problem now- which has yet to be satisfactorily resolved- is how data protection would apply to customers of ESB Networks- and could the company be forced to share this data.

Victor

smccarrick wrote: »

The big problem now- which has yet to be satisfactorily resolved- is how data protection would apply to customers of ESB Networks- and could the company be forced to share this data.

Already covered in the act.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=19980&CatID=87

Data sharing and exchange.

14.—(1) Notwithstanding any enactment or rule of law—

(a) a relevant person shall, upon a request from a local authority, provide the local authority with such information in the possession or control of the relevant person or, where the relevant person is a body corporate, any subsidiary (within the meaning of section 155 of the Companies Act 1963) of the relevant person as the local authority may reasonably require for the purpose of enabling the local authority to perform its functions under this Act,

(b) a local authority shall, at such intervals as the Revenue Commissioners may specify, provide the Revenue Commissioners with such information obtained by the local authority pursuant to this Act, including tax reference numbers, as the Revenue Commissioners may reasonably require for the purpose of enabling them to perform their functions under a specified enactment, and

(c) a local authority shall, upon a request from, and at such intervals as may be specified by, a Minister of the Government, a local authority or a prescribed person, provide the Minister of the Government, the local authority or the prescribed person, as may be appropriate, with such information obtained by the local authority pursuant to this Act as the Minister of the Government, the local authority or the prescribed person concerned may reasonably require for the purpose of enabling him or her to perform his or her functions.

(2) The Minister shall not prescribe a person for the purposes of paragraph (c) of subsection (1) unless he or she is satisfied that the provision by a local authority of information obtained by the local authority pursuant to this Act to such person will assist the person in discharging a function conferred on, or delegated to, him or her by or under any enactment.

(3) In this section—
“Act of 2010” means the Value-Added Tax Consolidation Act 2010;

“relevant person” means—
(a) the Private Residential Tenancies Board established under section 150 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004,
(b) the Electricity Supply Board established in accordance with the Electricity (Supply) Act 1927,
(c) the Revenue Commissioners,
(d) the Minister for Social Protection, or
(e) any other person standing prescribed for the time being;

“specified enactment” means—
(a) the Tax Acts,
(b) the Capital Gains Tax Acts,
(c) the Act of 2010,
(d) the Stamp Duties Consolidation Act 1999, or
(e) the Act of 2003;

“tax reference number” means—
(a) in relation to an individual, that individual’s personal public service number (within the meaning of section 262 of the Act of 2005), or
(b) in relation to a body corporate—
(i) the reference number stated on any return of income form or notice of assessment issued to that person by an officer of the Revenue Commissioners, or
(ii) the registration number of the body corporate for the purposes of the Act of 2010.

I bought my rural house in 2002 paying 3000 euro stamp duty. I have a septic tank which cost 7000 euro as clare county council would not give planning permission without a bio clear unit. it runs on my electricity, gets cleaned every 2nd year at a cost of 150 euro. I do not have public surage, waste collection I pay for, we have no park in our parish, no library, I have no street lighting, no bus service, no footpaths.
I have miles and miles of huge potholes and despite numerous calls to Clare county council nothing has been done.
What am I paying this 100 euro charge for?????

I need a car to travel to work, petrol this morning was 168.9 at my nearest station 5 miles away. My car tax went up, I pay universal social charge, paye tax and prsi.
I can no longer get dental or optical on my stamp. I now have to work until I am 68 and not 65 as I believed my whole life.
Why would I pay???????
I have 2 children that I spent my life savings on sending to college and they have both emegrated as they could not find suitable work here.
So schools will not interest me as my grandchildren will be brought up in Canada and New Zealand.
Why would I pay?????
Please tell me???
Yvonne

Pawwed Rig

Deleted User wrote: »

I bought my rural house in 2002 paying 3000 euro stamp duty. I have a septic tank which cost 7000 euro as clare county council would not give planning permission without a bio clear unit. it runs on my electricity, gets cleaned every 2nd year at a cost of 150 euro. I do not have public surage, waste collection I pay for, we have no park in our parish, no library, I have no street lighting, no bus service, no footpaths.
I have miles and miles of huge potholes and despite numerous calls to Clare county council nothing has been done.
What am I paying this 100 euro charge for?????

I need a car to travel to work, petrol this morning was 168.9 at my nearest station 5 miles away. My car tax went up, I pay universal social charge, paye tax and prsi.
I can no longer get dental or optical on my stamp. I now have to work until I am 68 and not 65 as I believed my whole life.
Why would I pay???????
I have 2 children that I spent my life savings on sending to college and they have both emegrated as they could not find suitable work here.
So schools will not interest me as my grandchildren will be brought up in Canada and New Zealand.
Why would I pay?????
Please tell me???
Yvonne

While I agree with most of your post the fact is that it is a requirement of the EU IMF bailout to introduce this charge.
Bear in mind Fianna Fail were predominantly elected from rural areas. So blame your neighbours.

Kosseegan

Deleted User wrote: »

I bought my rural house in 2002 paying 3000 euro stamp duty. I have a septic tank which cost 7000 euro as clare county council would not give planning permission without a bio clear unit. it runs on my electricity, gets cleaned every 2nd year at a cost of 150 euro. I do not have public surage, waste collection I pay for, we have no park in our parish, no library, I have no street lighting, no bus service, no footpaths.
I have miles and miles of huge potholes and despite numerous calls to Clare county council nothing has been done.
What am I paying this 100 euro charge for?????

I need a car to travel to work, petrol this morning was 168.9 at my nearest station 5 miles away. My car tax went up, I pay universal social charge, paye tax and prsi.
I can no longer get dental or optical on my stamp. I now have to work until I am 68 and not 65 as I believed my whole life.
Why would I pay???????
I have 2 children that I spent my life savings on sending to college and they have both emegrated as they could not find suitable work here.
So schools will not interest me as my grandchildren will be brought up in Canada and New Zealand.
Why would I pay?????
Please tell me???
Yvonne

Why did you build a house is such a paradise? It serves you right. There is no reason for you not to have bought a house near your work and other facilities. That is what has ruined this country. People building in their own boreen with no sewage and expecting everybody else to subsidise them and the overheads the put on services.

SerialComplaint

Deleted User wrote: »

I bought my rural house in 2002 paying 3000 euro stamp duty. I have a septic tank which cost 7000 euro as clare county council would not give planning permission without a bio clear unit. it runs on my electricity, gets cleaned every 2nd year at a cost of 150 euro. I do not have public surage, waste collection I pay for, we have no park in our parish, no library, I have no street lighting, no bus service, no footpaths.
I have miles and miles of huge potholes and despite numerous calls to Clare county council nothing has been done.
What am I paying this 100 euro charge for?????

I need a car to travel to work, petrol this morning was 168.9 at my nearest station 5 miles away. My car tax went up, I pay universal social charge, paye tax and prsi.
I can no longer get dental or optical on my stamp. I now have to work until I am 68 and not 65 as I believed my whole life.
Why would I pay???????
I have 2 children that I spent my life savings on sending to college and they have both emegrated as they could not find suitable work here.
So schools will not interest me as my grandchildren will be brought up in Canada and New Zealand.
Why would I pay?????
Please tell me???
Yvonne

If you choose to live in a rural location, then you know the pros and cons of that. You can't expect to have libraries, playgrounds and parks on every corner. Clare does have a good number of playgrounds, and 16 branch libraries (more than in my heavily populated county of Dun Laoghaire Rathdown. The County Council promotes local businesses that keep your county alive. Their planning and building control department make sure that you don't wake up with a horrendous hotel on your front doorstep some morning. Their building control dept make sure that all new buildings are safe, and are accessible for people with disabilities. Their Fire Service are the ones who will come out in the middle of the night to get you out of your crashed car or your burning house. And there is lots more detail on the other parts of their website.

Local Government in Ireland is far from perfect, but yes, we do get something for our €100

The_Conductor

Deleted User wrote: »

I bought my rural house in 2002 paying 3000 euro stamp duty.

I bought mine in 1999 and paid 18k in stamp duty (I didn't qualify for First Time Buyer's relief, as it was, at the time). My home isn't rural- its an apartment. My next door neighbour is now selling for a little over half of what I paid in 1999......

Deleted User wrote: »

I have a septic tank which cost 7000 euro as clare county council would not give planning permission without a bio clear unit.

As I live in an apartment complex- we pay 1500-2000 per annum for maintaining our sewage, water, cabling and other amenities (the largest component of which is insurance).

Deleted User wrote: »

it runs on my electricity, gets cleaned every 2nd year at a cost of 150 euro.

Yes- its a septic tank- other people have other sewage and related bills- septic tanks may be predominantly a rural solution to sewage- but there are other systems in place in urban areas, often before we connect to services provided by councils.

Deleted User wrote: »

I do not have public surage, waste collection I pay for, we have no park in our parish, no library, I have no street lighting, no bus service, no footpaths.

Everyone pays for waste collection- its not free anywhere- and we pay for our own street lighting etc. We have no park nearby, despite being in an urban area very poor public transport, our footpaths are dangerous and there is very little cognisance of the fact that some people actually walk- rather than drive everywhere.

Deleted User wrote: »

I have miles and miles of huge potholes and despite numerous calls to Clare county council nothing has been done.
What am I paying this 100 euro charge for?????

Ask them for their annual accounts and see exactly where its spent.

Deleted User wrote: »

I need a car to travel to work, petrol this morning was 168.9 at my nearest station 5 miles away.

Diesel is 161.9 here- we're all in the same boat.

Deleted User wrote: »

My car tax went up, I pay universal social charge, paye tax and prsi.

All our car tax went up- and those of us with older cars now have benefit of an annual NCT rather than a biennial one.......

Deleted User wrote: »

I can no longer get dental or optical on my stamp. I now have to work until I am 68 and not 65 as I believed my whole life.

Ditto- this isn't a rural issue. My health is dire, I'll be surprised if i last to age 68........

Deleted User wrote: »

Why would I pay???????

Why should any of us pay? Because we are citizens of the country and subscribe to all that entails. If you no longer to avail of the benefits of being an Irish citizen- its your prerogative to up sticks and move elsewhere- however you'll have to subscribe to whatever the new location considers to be the norm....... We are paying for a health system and a social welfare system- which between them encompass almost 80% of government expenditure- the other 20%- is spread so thinly on the ground that the services we once considered normal are rapidly evaporating before our very eyes. Lots of people are making an informed decision to leave- most for economic reasons, some because they are fed up- but people are leaving by their thousands.......

Deleted User wrote: »

I have 2 children that I spent my life savings on sending to college and they have both emegrated as they could not find suitable work here.

I too have 2 children- all my income is dedicated to bringing them up to the best of my abilities. I cannot see a future for them here either!

Deleted User wrote: »

So schools will not interest me as my grandchildren will be brought up in Canada and New Zealand.
Why would I pay?????
Please tell me???
Yvonne

Until such time as you renounce living here- the Irish social welfare system, healthcare etc- and move elsewhere- then you pay. Once your children have grown up and moved to Canada/New Zealand (or where-ever) perhaps you'll make an informed choice and move yourself too. I know I will........

Blackjack

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Bear in mind Fianna Fail were predominantly elected from rural areas. So blame your neighbours.

Any stats to back this up?.
In the 2007 elections, Fianna Fail topped the %age of first preference votes in all but 2 (north central and south central) of the 12 Dublin constituencies, Comparing to 21 of the remaining 31 outside of Dublin. In fact in the 2007 elections, you could argue that the constituencies without large urban centres were the only ones that did not return FF as the highest of first pref votes.

All of the constituencies that would be considered as being in the "greater Dublin area" showed FF as having the highest percentage of first pref votes, the exceptions being the 2 centrals as mentioned above.

I think we probably need to blame urban dwellers as much as anyone else, to be entirely fair and honest.

http://www.rte.ie/news/election2011/results/

Pawwed Rig

Blackjack wrote: »

Any stats to back this up?.
In the 2007 elections, Fianna Fail topped the %age of first preference votes in all but 2 (north central and south central) of the 12 Dublin constituencies, Comparing to 21 of the remaining 31 outside of Dublin. In fact in the 2007 elections, you could argue that the constituencies without large urban centres were the only ones that did not return FF as the highest of first pref votes.

All of the constituencies that would be considered as being in the "greater Dublin area" showed FF as having the highest percentage of first pref votes, the exceptions being the 2 centrals as mentioned above.

I think we probably need to blame urban dwellers as much as anyone else, to be entirely fair and honest.

http://www.rte.ie/news/election2011/results/

Sure http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members_of_the_30th_Dail

Blackjack

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Sure http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members_of_the_30th_Dail

By my count at least half of the FF members were elected in constituencies around Dublin (Kildare, Meath east etc) or with cities (Galway west, limerick east, cork, Waterford etc).

Have you any proof that it was from predominantly rural areas that FF were elected?.

true

Deleted User wrote: »

I do not have public surage, waste collection I pay for, we have no park in our parish, no library, I have no street lighting, no bus service, no footpaths.
I have miles and miles of huge potholes and despite numerous calls to Clare county council nothing has been done.
What am I paying this 100 euro charge for?????

You have good points there. As someone else said, there are leaks in the bucket and why should we be expected to keep filling the bucket - I know I will not until the leaks are fixed. eg as regards libraries, there are far too many. Most are empty most of the time, overheated and fully of overpaid people chatting about their holidays. People can go to internet shops or buy secondhand books in charity shops if they really want. That will save hundreds of millions a year. Same with parks, street lighting etc - you and I are already paying too much for it. And there are currently hundreds of overpaid people in planning departments of county councils around the country doing nothing as the construction industry is dead. As you correctly say, What are we paying the 100 euro charge for?????

regress wrote: »

There are about 1.8 million households liable to register for the Household Charge with about 1.73 million required to pay. However the fugue given out by the media is only 1.6 million. The govt says this is the number it expects to register and it us now routinely reported by media as number required to register.

Similarly the govt is releasing figures for those that have registered for Charge but is refusing to say how many have paid. Media is routinely reporting this registration figure as number who have paid.

Is this laziness, sloppy journalism or is there a hidden agenda.

The media gets advertising revenue from government departments, so you can expect at least some of it to take a pro-government spin. RTE in particular is quite biased. It refuses to identify the elephant in the room as the individuals themselves there are doing quite nicely, thank you.

Victor

Blackjack wrote: »

By my count at least half of the FF members were elected in constituencies around Dublin (Kildare, Meath east etc) or with cities (Galway west, limerick east, cork, Waterford etc).

Those constituencies have about 86 seats - more than half.

Pawwed Rig

Blackjack wrote: »

By my count at least half of the FF members were elected in constituencies around Dublin (Kildare, Meath east etc) or with cities (Galway west, limerick east, cork, Waterford etc).

Have you any proof that it was from predominantly rural areas that FF were elected?.

Well I suppose it depends on your definition of rural. You are assuming all constituencies around Dublin are urban when in effect Meath, Kildare, Wicklow and parts of Dublin (I am thinking Dublin North) are fairly rural.
Anyway we can agree to differ as we are fairly off topic here.

SerialComplaint

true wrote: »

eg as regards libraries, there are far too many. Most are empty most of the time, overheated and fully of overpaid people chatting about their holidays. People can go to internet shops or buy secondhand books in charity shops if they really want. That will save hundreds of millions a year.

Please name the libraries that are 'empty most of the time' - what branches are you talking about? Perhaps you haven't noticed, but many people don't have the money to go to internet shops or buy second hand books. That's why they available of the free service at their local library. Sheesh, "let them eat cake" eh?

Blackjack

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Anyway we can agree to differ as we are fairly off topic here.

We are pretty off topic alright.

Back on - I don't care if anyone paid stamp duty, that's not an excuse not to pay a tax that every homeowner now needs to pay.

A 2 bedroom flat in Edinburgh will generally attract a minimum of 100 pounds sterling a month in council tax and water charges.

People should count themselves lucky its as little as it is.

Figerty

Nonsense, You paid stamp duty as a transaction tax not as value added tax... you paid that in the materials... have you looked at the stamp duty in the UK and the legalities were fixed fee not a percentage of the purchase price.

Anyone who built in the country side paid the local development levy about 3-4000 euros.

Jan O'Sullivan gets €17,000 extra to sit at meetings she cant vote at. That is 1700 home oweners paying 100 euros to have her sit at meetings.

Bertie gets €3000 a week on a pension. That is 15000 householders paying €100 per year for a man that isn't even retirement age.

We pay road tax to service the roads and services and tax on fuels
We pay VAT on everything
We paye PRSI to cover health
We pay tax on earnings to cover the rest.

Pay the tax to prop up the system if you wish. I'm not paying it untill they trim the fat and get real. Phil Hogan preeching to us isn't going to change our minds when the same fella blurted the budget details before the finance minister had the chance to. He can't be trusted.

If you are foolish enough to believe that it will stay at 100 euros then away you go. You don't need to pay it, you think you do because of the rubbish you have been fed.

Blackjack wrote: »

We are pretty off topic alright.

Back on - I don't care if anyone paid stamp duty, that's not an excuse not to pay a tax that every homeowner now needs to pay.

A 2 bedroom flat in Edinburgh will generally attract a minimum of 100 pounds sterling a month in council tax and water charges.

People should count themselves lucky its as little as it is.

Markdub2000

Kosseegan wrote: »

Why did you build a house is such a paradise? It serves you right. There is no reason for you not to have bought a house near your work and other facilities. That is what has ruined this country. People building in their own boreen with no sewage and expecting everybody else to subsidise them and the overheads the put on services.

I live in an estate in west Dublin, I pay a management fee for public liability, street lights, landscaping.
I pay my road tax for roads and street lighting
I pay prsi and health insurance for hospitals
I pay my income tax for social welfare
I pay a gym because there are no civil ameneties of an acceptable standard.
I buy my own books
I pay a tv licence
If I call the fire service or an ambulance I'll be charged 500euro an hour under the latest legislation!
Therefore everything in this leaflet for public services has already been paid for through, indirect taxation, direct taxation, charges for using these services etc etc
I certainly am not going to pay for the carry on of these idiots


I hope this government and last will burn in hell
If u want to be more like Europe - then fine try living on 1.35euro an hour the salary of a vodafone employee in Spain
Or 40 k a year for an engineer in France
These countries have to have property tax as revenue from waged and vat is so extremely low in comparison.
We are paying nearly 1/4 of everything we buy in VAT for gods sake.

If you sell an item in a shop for 100 euro, 23 euro of that goes in VAT straight off, 25 euro goes in tax due to rates, vat on electricity and gas supplies to the building
Of that 25 euro goes to the wages, 8 of that is paid in prsi, income tax, universal social charge.
This doesn't include tax on the fuel spent collecting the items from the warehouse, waste charges, etc etc

So for every item a shop sells nearly 70% goes to the government is some form of tax or another - people need to realise how much money they are already contributing to the government by way of their income tax and then how much they contribute from their take home pay on VAT for day to day leaving such as transport, food, clothing, savings, insurance levies etc etc - are they for REAL??

you'll soon come to the conclusion your taking sfa home..

Fine, I'll pay a household charge- but only if I get free healthcare, 7 euro prescriptions, a park not riddled with drugs, a public transport system that works.
I own a number of properties and I will be passing the charge along with prsi on top of the rent - I'm certainly not going to subsidise renters to live - this government and last are spineless disgusting soulless degenerate maggots and the only way they can redeem themselves is to kill themselves ( thanks southpark - they couldn't have put it better)

The_Conductor

Markdub2000 wrote: »

If u want to be more like Europe - then fine try living on 1.35euro an hour the salary of a vodafone employee in Spain

Just to clarify- the minimum wage in Spain is Euro6 per hour- with a monthly minimum payment of Euro 633.33 (they get 14 monthly payments- which equals the minimum wage). The starting pay for vodafone employees who are on an hourly rate (most aren't) is Euro 10 per hour.

France- yes, 40k isn't an unusual salary for an engineer- however they actually have a free public health system that works, and when they're not on strike, a very good inexpensive public transport system.

The big reason we demand higher salaries (and all sorts of other payments here) is because the cost of living is so much more expensive here. We need to drive down the cost of living- utilities esp. electricity and gas being top of the list- followed by groceries- and once we have our cost of living down to a European norm- we need to chop the living hell out of salaries for those lucky to be in employment, social welfare and pensions- alongside the costs for trades etc.

We have priced ourselves out of existence- and yet another tax isn't helping matters- we need to redesign this country from the bottom up.........

n900guy

smccarrick wrote: »

Ireland was almost unique in a western context in not having a property tax- its also one of the reasons that the ongoing costs associated with property ownership here are considerably lower than elsewhere- and why renting is reviled.........

Renting is reviled because rental property standards are appalling, almost uniquely so in the western context.

And a property tax is the norm - this household charge is not one. It is an "ownership tax", as tenants or people living in social-housing are not required to contribute anything for "funding your local services" (to quote the official website).

We need to raise the funds- or alternatively cut our expenditure by a commensurate amount (on top of the 16.5 billion still coming down the line).

It's not one or the other. Funds need to be raised but targetting property owners exclusively and not tenants like in other countries with yearly service charges (e.g., UK council tax, Netherlands gemeente taxes) is shortsighted and unique in the western context.

If we are not going to take a mature attitude to running our affairs- we may as well throw in the towel and hand over the keys to the EU/IMF. However harsh the medicine our own crowd are coming up with- you can be certain the medicine the troika would decree, would be a million times worse........

The recommendation was for a property services charge. Instead, the government introduced a property ownership tax.

Markdub2000

smccarrick wrote: »

Just to clarify- the minimum wage in Spain is Euro6 per hour- with a monthly minimum payment of Euro 633.33 (they get 14 monthly payments- which equals the minimum wage). The starting pay for vodafone employees who are on an hourly rate (most aren't) is Euro 10 per hour.

France- yes, 40k isn't an unusual salary for an engineer- however they actually have a free public health system that works, and when they're not on strike, a very good inexpensive public transport system.

We have priced ourselves out of existence- and yet another tax isn't helping matters- we need to redesign this country from the bottom up.........

I beg to differ - my girlfriend worked in vodafone Valencia for 1.35 an hour - I thought it was slave labour to be honest - 35k a year for engineering was considered a fantastic rate - the charges both movistar and vodafone levied on there customers there were as expensive as the networks here.

I recently heard two m&s employees talking about the refund of the USC - people here are being paid a pittance too. Yet they are one of the most expensive stores that operate here.

You cannot drive down the costs and salaries without devastating a particular section of society

markpb

Markdub2000 wrote: »

I recently heard two m&s employees talking about the refund of the USC - people here are being paid a pittance too. Yet they are one of the most expensive stores that operate here.

Is it not likely that they were working less than 35 hours a week?

Markdub2000

Unlike Europe most Irish are educated to a high standard, salaries must reflect that, I certainly didn't bring 3 kids up to have them work in mcdonalds - I like most parents didn't spend 50k on degree courses for them to work for 30k a year - our salaries must reflect what we are - a first world nation - if u want to go backward move elsewhere

Markdub2000

markpb wrote: »

Is it not likely that they were working less than 35 hours a week?

I doubt it she was talking about a 9 hour shift she had to do the following day - 6am to 3pm - I felt so sorry for them they were in their mid 40s what chance have they got

So if ur nostalgic about 1990's pay put on ur pastel jumper and go sit on a dole queue - you'll feel right at home....

We are a consumer driven society, bar this week, most people depend on shops, bars and indoor activities for entertainment... unlike most of Europe we don't get a significant summer

It is external forces that drive the cost of living here now - a cinema ticket in Spain costs 5.25 - Liffey valley is up on 12 euros --- why is this so?

Hollywood know they can charge different rates for different markets - I saw it on one of their press conferences !!!
U can rent two new movies for 2 euro a night in France - but here it's 8.50 - I dont think the rates have ever been as low as the price in Europe - even since we got a video first in 1982 I think they've been above a pound...
The problem is the euro - it's just not suitable for this country - we must have our own currency or the GBP or the dollar

Giblet

Markdub2000 wrote: »

Unlike Europe most Irish are educated to a high standard, salaries must reflect that, I certainly didn't bring 3 kids up to have them work in mcdonalds - I like most parents didn't spend 50k on degree courses for them to work for 30k a year - our salaries must reflect what we are - a first world nation - if u want to go backward move elsewhere

Our salaries must reflect what we are, a country which owes more than it makes.

Markdub2000

Giblet wrote: »

Our salaries must reflect what we are, a country which owes more than it makes.

Then the cuts need to be made by the sections that have borrowed - we seem to be able to afford public bikes,

Giblet

And these cuts will hit every sector, less people will be required and less demands on services provided by private sectors, as well as more demand for those jobs. Driving salaries down. Simple really, you are owed nothing, degree or not.

true

Markdub2000 wrote: »

Unlike Europe most Irish are educated to a high standard, salaries must reflect that

Markdub2000 wrote: »

I certainly didn't bring 3 kids up to have them work in mcdonalds

I would say most McDonalds workers in Europe can speak more modern languages than most young adults in Ireland. We are not a superior race of educated geniuses who can afford to import all our workers for our service industries.

Giblet wrote: »

Our salaries must reflect what we are, a country which owes more than it makes.

+1. The countries bailing us out have lower salaries than the shower running us.

To get back to the OP, there are lies, damn lies and statistics. I would take anything RTE or the government says with a pinch of salt.

Blackjack

Figerty wrote: »

Nonsense, You paid stamp duty as a transaction tax not as value added tax... you paid that in the materials... have you looked at the stamp duty in the UK and the legalities were fixed fee not a percentage of the purchase price.

Anyone who built in the country side paid the local development levy about 3-4000 euros.

Jan O'Sullivan gets €17,000 extra to sit at meetings she cant vote at. That is 1700 home oweners paying 100 euros to have her sit at meetings.

Bertie gets €3000 a week on a pension. That is 15000 householders paying €100 per year for a man that isn't even retirement age.

We pay road tax to service the roads and services and tax on fuels
We pay VAT on everything
We paye PRSI to cover health
We pay tax on earnings to cover the rest.

Pay the tax to prop up the system if you wish. I'm not paying it untill they trim the fat and get real. Phil Hogan preeching to us isn't going to change our minds when the same fella blurted the budget details before the finance minister had the chance to. He can't be trusted.

If you are foolish enough to believe that it will stay at 100 euros then away you go. You don't need to pay it, you think you do because of the rubbish you have been fed.

You forget we pay tax to pay social welfare and house the 14% unemployed also.

I don't believe it's going to stay at 100 euros but as I already pointed out you would pay at least 100 pounds a month in the uk which goes to fund local services - fire, police, council services etc

I have no doubt that the areas that have the highest number who refuse to pay will be the most vocal of all should their local services start to deteriorate.

The_Conductor

Markdub2000 wrote: »

I beg to differ - my girlfriend worked in vodafone Valencia for 1.35 an hour - I thought it was slave labour to be honest - 35k a year for engineering was considered a fantastic rate - the charges both movistar and vodafone levied on there customers there were as expensive as the networks here.

I recently heard two m&s employees talking about the refund of the USC - people here are being paid a pittance too. Yet they are one of the most expensive stores that operate here.

You cannot drive down the costs and salaries without devastating a particular section of society

The minimum wage I quoted is accurate- I pulled it from one of their government websites. It may be that she was not an employee- but was engaged in some sort of promotion work? 14 monthly paychecks per annum of a minimum of 633.33 is the official minimum wage in Spain.

People are paid a pittance here- when deductions are taken into account- though their gross salaries may appear incredibly generous. I'm in a good job myself- yet, I would be slightly better off on social welfare (and have been informed I qualify for a free GP visit card by the local public health nurse).

Our country is in a mess- and the piecemeal changes we are half heartedly implementing are making matters worse- we need a thorough overhaul.

Victor

Markdub2000 wrote: »

If you sell an item in a shop for 100 euro, 23 euro of that goes in VAT straight off, 25 euro goes in tax due to rates, vat on electricity and gas supplies to the building
Of that 25 euro goes to the wages, 8 of that is paid in prsi, income tax, universal social charge.
This doesn't include tax on the fuel spent collecting the items from the warehouse, waste charges, etc etc

So for every item a shop sells nearly 70% goes to the government is some form of tax or another

And here is the crux of the matter - a basic lack of numeracy.

23% + 25% (gross exaggeration) + 8% = 56%, which isn't "nearly 70%".

Excluding appropriations-in-aid, in 2012 the government will take €39.9 billion in taxes (expenditure €61.5 billion). GNP will be €159 billion (GDP €129 billion), that is 25-31%, not "nearly 70%".

http://budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2012/Documents/Estimates%20of%20Receipts%20and%20Expenditure%20for%20the%20Year%20ending%2031%20December%202012.pdf

http://budget.gov.ie/budgets/2012/Documents/Economic%20and%20Fiscal%20Outlook.pdf

Twiki

For what it's worth, 18.7% of an item's selling price goes in VAT (at top rate).