Is Sinn Fein and the DUP trying to use Scottish independence as a diversion ?

thecommietommy

Peter Robinson has said that Unionists must not “stand idly by”, but instead do what they can to convince the Scottish people to remain within the Union. On the other hand, Martin McGuinness has welcomed the SNP’s move and suggested that they would like to see a similar vote on a united Ireland take place in the near future – perhaps in 2016, the centenary of the Easter Rising.

In order to distract from the fact that they are both implementing cuts on the jobs, services and living standards, could they both try using Scottish independence issue as a diversion ??

southsiderosie

Since the most important political issue in the North has always been 'the national question', I'm guessing no. Any potential independence vote in Scotland would have significant implications for Northern Ireland - not necessarily in a constitutional sense, but certainly for both propaganda purposes and as a future guide to how Westminster would react.

Dirk Gently

It's the other way around, the assembly is a distraction to the national question which is the core principle of both the dup and sf. I suppose you could say Scottish independence is distracting them from being distracted.

KeithAFC

Getting sick of the DUP now. They do very little work with the working class Unionist/Loyalist community in Ulster. I hope we can get another Unionist party to challenge them. What does Peter Robinson do for the working class people? Nothing.

Dirk Gently

has any unionist party ever associated themselves with working classes, save for the P.U.P? It's a product of the apartheid system you had going on up there that the nationalist groups associated themselves with working class politics and unionist parties didn't need to. Now there's a vacuum because the discrimination has largely been broken down and there is cross community working poor and cross community upper classes.

southsiderosie

What exactly do you want Robinson to do, Keith? His entire political movement's raison d'être is maintaining the union, yet other members of that union may be actively opting out.

As for unionist leadership in working class communities, that has been lacking for a while, so that can't get fixed overnight. Running candidates like Sammy Douglas may be a step in the right direction though.

KeithAFC

southsiderosie wrote: »

What exactly do you want Robinson to do, Keith? His entire political movement's raison d'être is maintaining the union, yet other members of that union may be actively opting out.

As for unionist leadership in working class communities, that has been lacking for a while, so that can't get fixed overnight. Running candidates like Sammy Douglas may be a step in the right direction though.

A lot more than he is doing. Like getting more involved in local issues. Don't want to turn this thread into DUP bashing but they are starting to annoy me.

Dirk Gently

KeithAFC wrote: »

. Don't want to turn this thread into DUP bashing but they are starting to annoy me.

welcome to the free state kid :pac:

Richard

thecommietommy wrote: »

Peter Robinson has said that Unionists must not “stand idly by”, but instead do what they can to convince the Scottish people to remain within the Union. On the other hand, Martin McGuinness has welcomed the SNP’s move and suggested that they would like to see a similar vote on a united Ireland take place in the near future – perhaps in 2016, the centenary of the Easter Rising.

In order to distract from the fact that they are both implementing cuts on the jobs, services and living standards, could they both try using Scottish independence issue as a diversion ??

They could do, and they are doing!

But I think that interventions from NI Unionists will only make Scots remember that that they are also in a union with Northern Ireland that some might not be keen on, whilst interventions from Irish Nationalist will remind them that fiscal autonomy isn't always everything it's cracked up to be.

Richard

Dirk Gently wrote: »

has any unionist party ever associated themselves with working classes, save for the P.U.P? It's a product of the apartheid system you had going on up there that the nationalist groups associated themselves with working class politics and unionist parties didn't need to. Now there's a vacuum because the discrimination has largely been broken down and there is cross community working poor and cross community upper classes.

The DUP used to be the working class party, whilst the UUP was for the ascendency.

There seems to be a lot of disillusioned working class loyalists out there, but they're not turning to the PUP (or anyone else) in great numbers.

southsiderosie

To bring things back to the OP, I think the fiscal issues around the Scots vote could be huge. How would NI disentangle from Whitehall given its economic weakness? It would be interesting to see how Scotland manages this - and they have oil.

woodoo

KeithAFC wrote: »

Getting sick of the DUP now. They do very little work with the working class Unionist/Loyalist community in Ulster. I hope we can get another Unionist party to challenge them. What does Peter Robinson do for the working class people? Nothing.

The DUP strike me as a Middle/Upper Class party of well off farmers, buisnessmen and professional types. They'd be more interested in titles and money than the working classes.

john reilly

KeithAFC wrote: »

Getting sick of the DUP now. They do very little work with the working class Unionist/Loyalist community in Ulster. I hope we can get another Unionist party to challenge them. What does Peter Robinson do for the working class people? Nothing.

its well known that sinn fein do great work within working class communities. so maybe its time for you to open a branch of sinn fein in your community, you could call it the wolfetone branch in keeping with your protestant ethos

Iwasfrozen

john reilly wrote: »

its well known that sinn fein do great work within working class communities. so maybe its time for you to open a branch of sinn fein in your community, you could call it the wolfetone branch in keeping with your protestant ethos

Doesn't help much with the auld unionist ethos though.

Dubhlinner

KeithAFC wrote: »

A lot more than he is doing. Like getting more involved in local issues. Don't want to turn this thread into DUP bashing but they are starting to annoy me.

What do you make of the PUP Keith? Have some very forward thinking policies imo. I started a thread about them on republican.ie a while back

Policing:

A fairer system of police recruitment. The PUP have always accepted the need for specialist recruitment procedures for the PSNI due to our troubled past. Whilst the Catholic imbalance has been addressed there is a new divide emerging between working class and middle class recruits. A police force works best when it’s officers are drawn from the communities in which they work. We actively encourage greater recruitment from working class areas of Northern Ireland.



Education:

- Financial incentives for parents to enrol their children into integrated schools. Integrated education is vital to removing fear and suspicion between the two communities in Northern Ireland. It is unacceptable that our children are educated separately for the first sixteen years of their lives because of their parents’ religious beliefs. The PUP will work to increase participation in integrated education across NI.

Dirk Gently

southsiderosie wrote: »

It would be interesting to see how Scotland manages this - and they have oil.

It looks like low business taxes and high public services is what they're promising, although they are slashing admin roles while protecting front line services. They could end up in a race to the bottom trying to out compete with the UK on tax breaks, killing the tax base altogether. It will be interesting to see the bidding war that will no doubt happen to attract business on either side of the boarder. I think as part of any agreement it would be madness not to link uk/scottish taxes for a period of time after independence, preferably with scotland being allowded a percent or 2 lower for a period. I don't think it will work out as civilised as that though.

As for NI, well it's completly dependant on public wages. It's not viable as a stand alone entity. There's two options, dependance on london or depenance on Dublin, or as a lot of people will look at it, do they want the NHS or the HSE.

HamletOrHecuba

john reilly wrote: »

its well known that sinn fein do great work within working class communities.

If you had seen the state of decline and disintergration in Sinn Fein strong holds in west Belfast you would not be so certain of them doing great work. Also whether people want to admit it or not Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland is an ethnic nationalist party which seeks the good of its own ethnos over that of the Ulster British; so outside of trendy leftie "guilty prods" I cant see any of the Ulster British voting for them.

HamletOrHecuba

Richard wrote: »

The DUP used to be the working class party, whilst the UUP was for the ascendency.

There seems to be a lot of disillusioned working class loyalists out there, but they're not turning to the PUP (or anyone else) in great numbers.

While its true that the DUP have moved a little to the right as they have absorbed UUP voters I dont think they have moved as far to the right as some people make out; their voting record in Westminster shows that they still vote left on economic issues despite their making occasional noises at home to seduce UUP voters.

PUP are not a proper alternative because they are far to socially liberal and PC on one hand and on the other hand linked to thugs who love to throw their weight around in far to many working class estates.

john reilly

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

If you had seen the state of decline and disintergration in Sinn Fein strong holds in west Belfast you would not be so certain of them doing great work. Also whether people want to admit it or not Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland is an ethnic nationalist party which seeks the good of its own ethnos over that of the Ulster British; so outside of trendy leftie "guilty prods" I cant see any of the Ulster British voting for them.

surely the state of west belfast was down to the lack of funding from unionist run state bodies

HamletOrHecuba

john reilly wrote: »

surely the state of west belfast was down to the lack of funding from unionist run state bodies

The fact that got significantly worse during Gerry Adam's watch is the fault of Unionist run state bodies completely and has nothing to do with Sinn Fein? Are you sure?? Also are you not forgetting power sharing?

Continuity Wolfe Tone

Sinn Féin generally do a better job to help working class nationalists than the DUP do to help working class unionists/loyalists. Thats probably because in the past Unionist politicians didn't really have to "look after" their working class because they were all bound together by the sash - and everything that entails.

While things like anti social behavior, drugs etc have risen in nationalist areas I'd suggest that the largest reason behind that is the absence of the provos.

Are they using the Scottish situation as a distraction? I don't think so, it's very important. You could also ask are they using stuff like McGuinness going to Windsor park, or Robinson to a GAA game as a distraction? While I'm half expecting to read an article about Robinson having a fenian brekky this type of thing is important.

LordSutch

Dirk Gently wrote: »

They could end up in a race to the bottom trying to out compete with the UK on tax breaks, killing the tax base altogether.

You mean trying to out compete with what's left of the UK, after the break up of . . .

I can't see Scotland breaking up the UK anyway, England & Scotland are just too entwined & deply connected to be seperated by the dreams of Alex Salmond and his Braveheart fetish, somebody should tell that man that it was only a film, and not reality!

deise go deo

LordSutch wrote: »

You mean trying to out compete with what's left of the UK, after the break up of . . .

I can't see Scotland breaking up the UK anyway, England & Scotland are just too entwined & deply connected to be seperated by the dreams of Alex Salmond and his Braveheart fetish, somebody should tell that man that it was only a film, and not reality!

You may dismiss him and his plans for Scotland, but he is Scotlands first minister and he has a Majority in Scotlands assembly, so its not like his opinion carries no weight. Especially when you consider that the clear trend over the last few years has been increasing support for Scottish Independance, and decreasing oppisition to it.

The referendum campaign has not started yet, but it is inevitable that there will be one,(Who would have believed that ten years ago?) I can't say Salmond will win, but it is certainly a posibility.

LordSutch

I would imagine that a new & brave independent Scotland would be an aggressive economic threat to the Irish economy, possibly vying for some of the same jobs too! so I'm not too sure that Irish people should be hoping/wishing that Scotland breaks away from the Union, because it might proove to be hard news for our economy.

deise go deo

LordSutch wrote: »

I would imagine that a new & brave independent Scotland would be an aggressive economic threat to the Irish economy, possibly vying for some of the same jobs too! so I'm not too sure that Irish people should be hoping/wishing that Scotland breaks away from the Union, because it might proove to be hard news for our economy.

So you think Independance would allow Scotland's economy to be more competitive and attract more jobs to Scotland?

I thought it was just a braveheart fetish?

dlofnep

LordSutch wrote: »

Y
I can't see Scotland breaking up the UK anyway, England & Scotland are just too entwined & deply connected to be seperated by the dreams of Alex Salmond and his Braveheart fetish, somebody should tell that man that it was only a film, and not reality!

Same could have been said about Ireland, and dreams of our own independence. And Scottish independence and the story of William Wallace wasn't fictional, it was a reality. Moreover - The 'union' of Scotland and England, was not actually supported by the Scottish people.

It's always interesting to see the wordplay Unionists use when describing the legitimate aspiration of independence. A 'Braveheart Fetish' isn't the words a balanced, and intellectually honest commentator would use to describe to aspiration of millions of Scots, who aspire to see Scotland run it's own affairs entirely.

Why anyone would lower themselves to use demeaning phrases to describe the act of determining your own affairs, is beyond me. Have a bit of intellectual rigour.

LordSutch

dlofnep wrote: »

It's always interesting to see the wordplay Unionists use when describing the legitimate aspiration of independence. A 'Braveheart Fetish' isn't the words a balanced, and intellectually honest commentator would use to describe to aspiration of millions of Scots, who aspire to see Scotland run it's own affairs entirely.

Why anyone would lower themselves to use demeaning phrases to describe the act of determining your own affairs, is beyond me. Have a bit of intellectual rigour.

In fairness my Braveheart comment is hardly demeaning, (don't be so timid) Salmond himself wants the vote on the 700th anniversary of the battle of Bannockburn in June 2014. I am sure that members of the Scottish Labour party, and the Scottish Liberal party have uttered a lot worse in the corridors of Holyrood than 'Braveheart fetish'. By the way, I don't represent myself as a "balanced, and intellectually honest commentator" I am not sitting on the fence, and I don't want the Union to break up! ergo I am quite obviously anti-Salmond and his manufactured movement, which lets be honest is a one man show, with a little help from Ms N.Sturgeon . . .

KeithAFC

LordSutch wrote: »

In fairness my Braveheart comment is hardly demeaning, (don't be so timid) Salmond himself wants the vote on the 700th anniversary of the battle of Bannockburn in June 2014. I am sure that members of the Scottish Labour party, and the Scottish Liberal party have uttered a lot worse in the corridors of Holyrood than 'Braveheart fetish'. By the way, I don't represent myself as a "balanced, and intellectually honest commentator" I am not sitting on the fence, and I don't want the Union to break up! ergo I am quite obviously anti-Salmond and his manufactured movement, which lets be honest is a one man show, with a little help from Ms N.Sturgeon . . .

They have as much a chance of winning the referendum as Sinn Fein getting a United Ireland in 2014. That would be no chance. I think Alex Salmond should try and milk it for all it is worth now and then get out as soon as he can.

thecommietommy

It's been said that SF's input into the Good Friday Agreement was to 'ghettoise' NI, i.e. make it so that political parties are been seen to " look after their own " rather than having a cross community apporach. Looks like most people have fallen into SF's trap and they hope that the ever growing Catholic population will be in the majority in a decade or two, which they probably will. However, the divisions of society in the north can only be resolved by breaking down the sectarian barriers between the communities. This cannot be achieved by right-wing politicians who have an interest in maintaining division. Unity can only be built around the common interests of working-class people from both communities – fighting against cuts and for jobs, houses and a decent future for all.

dublinscot

LordSutch wrote: »

Salmond himself wants the vote on the 700th anniversary of the battle of Bannockburn in June 2014.

No, that's just something dreamt up and publicised by the unionists to make it look as if the SNP are only concerned with fighting ancient battles.

The SNP intend to hold the referendum in the autumn, not June.

dlofnep wrote: »

It's always interesting to see the wordplay Unionists use when describing the legitimate aspiration of independence. A 'Braveheart Fetish' isn't the words a balanced, and intellectually honest commentator would use to describe to aspiration of millions of Scots, who aspire to see Scotland run it's own affairs entirely.

Why anyone would lower themselves to use demeaning phrases to describe the act of determining your own affairs, is beyond me. Have a bit of intellectual rigour.

It's pretty much all the No campaign has to go on - mud-slinging and scare stories.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

john reilly

thecommietommy wrote: »

It's been said that SF's input into the Good Friday Agreement was to 'ghettoise' NI, i.e. make it so that political parties are been seen to " look after their own " rather than having a cross community apporach. Looks like most people have fallen into SF's trap and they hope that the ever growing Catholic population will be in the majority in a decade or two, which they probably will. However, the divisions of society in the north can only be resolved by breaking down the sectarian barriers between the communities. This cannot be achieved by right-wing politicians who have an interest in maintaining division. Unity can only be built around the common interests of working-class people from both communities – fighting against cuts and for jobs, houses and a decent future for all.

who is going to pay for these

Dubhlinner

LordSutch wrote: »

I would imagine that a new & brave independent Scotland would be an aggressive economic threat to the Irish economy, possibly vying for some of the same jobs too! so I'm not too sure that Irish people should be hoping/wishing that Scotland breaks away from the Union, because it might proove to be hard news for our economy.

Indeed. Low minimum wage there. If they got control of corporation tax how low you reckon they'd go? I suspect they're likely going to be "good europeans" though and not go anywhere near as low as Ireland

HamletOrHecuba

john reilly wrote: »

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who is going to pay for these

Plenty of serious wealth in the UK still; since Thatcher there has been a huge rise is the inequality of the distribution of it, though when someone talks of halting or reserving that the rebel Shinners ask who will pay for it?