The power of faith.

JimiTime

Matthew 17:20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

Is it that there is simply no-one alive with even a mustard seeds worth of faith? Or whats this about?

I often see fellow Christians, falling over themselves to condemn people who forsake medical attention etc, in favour of 'putting themselves in Gods hands' etc. So whats the deal? Is faith powerful or what? Or is it that no-one has even the smallest amount of it? Or is there a context here thats missing?

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

Or is it that no-one has even the smallest amount of it?

That would be my reading of it (genuinely) given the context Jesus said it. His disciples could not heal a possessed child but Jesus could with ease. The impression is that if they even had a small amount of genuine faith they could have done this and more.

This would give the impression that faith is incredibly powerful, but that even the direct followers of it lacked significant amounts of it.

I wonder if the suggestion is that Jesus' super powers stemmed solely from his absolute faith in God, and such abilities would actually be common place if all shared the level of Jesus' faith?

Peregrinus

It's called hyperbole; it's a literary device.

There's a clue in the introductory words, "truly I tell you . . . ", a phrase which turns up often in the gospels and which usually indicates a "teaching moment" - i.e., it's Jesus saying "listen carefully, because I'm about to tell you something which is important, but difficult to understand". And the language which follows is nearly always symbolic or mystical.

Another way to think of this is that when Jesus says "truly I tell you . . ." he is signalling that "I know what I am about to say sounds impossible and, in a literal sense, it is. But listen carefully and reflect prayerfully because, in saying this apparently impossible thing, I am trying to communicate an underlying and difficult-to-grasp divine truth which, being mystical, is not easily conveyed in human language and by reference to human experience"

In the gospels, "truly I say to you" language introduces the following teachings (among others):

- Many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it.
- Unless you become as little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven
- Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
- Only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven
- You who have followed me will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel
- There will not be left here one stone upon another.
- As you did it to the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.
- Unless one is born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of God
- Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me will have eternal life.
- Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you have no life in you.
- Before Abraham was, I am.
- I am the door of the sheep.
- You will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice.
- Whatever you ask of the father in my name, he will give you.

You can see that a lot of these teachings are challenging, or cryptic, or both, and they require a good deal of prayer and reflection. So the same language in Mt 17:20 serves to signal to us that this is a deep and perhaps difficult teaching and, whatever else it is about, it probably isn't about dispensing with the need for earth-moving equipment.

precedes the

JimiTime

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's called hyperbole; it's a literary device.

There's a clue in the introductory words, "truly I tell you . . . ", a phrase which turns up often in the gospels and which usually indicates a "teaching moment" - i.e., it's Jesus saying "listen carefully, because I'm about to tell you something which is important, but difficult to understand". And the language which follows is nearly always symbolic or mystical.

Another way to think of this is that when Jesus says "truly I tell you . . ." he is signalling that "I know what I am about to say sounds impossible and, in a literal sense, it is. But listen carefully and reflect prayerfully because, in saying this apparently impossible thing, I am trying to communicate an underlying and difficult-to-grasp divine truth which, being mystical, is not easily conveyed in human language and by reference to human experience"

In the gospels, "truly I say to you" language introduces the following teachings (among others):

- Many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it.
- Unless you become as little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven
- Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
- Only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven
- You who have followed me will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel
- There will not be left here one stone upon another.
- As you did it to the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.
- Unless one is born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of God
- Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me will have eternal life.
- Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you have no life in you.
- Before Abraham was, I am.
- I am the door of the sheep.
- You will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice.
- Whatever you ask of the father in my name, he will give you.

You can see that a lot of these teachings are challenging, or cryptic, or both, and they require a good deal of prayer and reflection. So the same language in Mt 17:20 serves to signal to us that this is a deep and perhaps difficult teaching and, whatever else it is about, it probably isn't about dispensing with the need for earth-moving equipment.

precedes the

I understand the hyperbole being used, but in the context of the fact that he had just expelled a demon that the disciples could not, he still seemed to be literally saying that faith is powerful didn't he? So what do you think it means? Any ideas? Do you have any insight into it? You don't think the hyperbole was used to accentuate the literal power of faith?

JimiTime

Zombrex wrote: »

That would be my reading of it (genuinely) given the context Jesus said it. His disciples could not heal a possessed child but Jesus could with ease. The impression is that if they even had a small amount of genuine faith they could have done this and more.

This would give the impression that faith is incredibly powerful, but that even the direct followers of it lacked significant amounts of it.

I wonder if the suggestion is that Jesus' super powers stemmed solely from his absolute faith in God, and such abilities would actually be common place if all shared the level of Jesus' faith?

At the time, there was an issue with the disciples faith. At that time they still did not really understand who he was, and did not get that he would be killed and subsequently raised etc. We see later on, they do eventually attain this power. The question remains though, in THIS day, what does this mean? Where are those faithful people with this power? Or is there a context I'm missing?

Helix

biblical speak for: believe and you can do anything

these days it's usually "believe in yourself and you can do anything"

it doesn't actually mean you can turn invisible and fly faster than the speed of light though

JimiTime

Helix wrote: »

biblical speak for: believe and you can do anything

these days it's usually "believe in yourself and you can do anything"

it doesn't actually mean you can turn invisible and fly faster than the speed of light though

Not really. Maybe if the gospels didn't include accounts of blind men seeing, lame men walking, dead men rising etc, you'd have a point, but I really don't see how the above can really be extrapolated from the text.

Onesimus

The mustard seed represent a hot and active faith that is needed by the apostles in order to be perfect and acheive great things in Christ. The mountains represent obstacles within oneself.

Festus

JimiTime wrote: »

Or is there a context I'm missing?

Yep, the bit where Zombrex introduced a false premise and stated that Jesus could do what He did because He had faith in God.

homer911

I'm reminded of the author Adrian Plass, who tried practising on a paper clip!

http://www.adrianplass.com/articles/door_interview.htm

Sacred Diary..(very funny)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/031026913X

qrrgprgua

I think many have lost the true sense of Faith. Many in Ireland who say they are Religious or Catholics have little or no real faith. If you really believed in Christ it would change your life. He came to tell us to cure in his name.. Since we have lost his faith he no longer has disciples to carry forth is message. I think somewhere in the Gospels, he says will he find faith on earth when he returns.

lmaopml

From my own little thoughts, I think that Jesus may have been speaking about doubt and fear and faith all combined together in the initial 'mustard seed' Church of the time. St. Peter had faith and then had fear also and sunk while while walking on water and called out to be saved in Matthew, when Jesus addressed him the same way ' O you of little faith, why did you doubt...'

He was speaking to the early Church - The 'Mustard Seed' is also represented in the 'Parable of the Mustard Seed' that speaks of the 'Kingdom of God' - and how it is like the mustard seed that grows in the 'soil', which I think represents faith in Christ strengthened by the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps, he was addressing the early Church in a grave manner about their faith because they actually 'saw' and still feared, they had just seen Moses and Eli'jah I think? Perhaps he was preparing them to become THE mustard seeds that would grow become strong and as the parable says that attracted the birds to nest in it's branches - Perhaps also inline with the vine and it's fruit etc. and also the Great Commission?

I think Onesimus possibly addressed how it equates to a person in their own personal life 'these days' when in these days the Kingdom of God, and the mustard seed has taken root and is being preached everywhere, just like Jesus wanted. I think he hit the nail on the head when he mentions that the mustard seed and mountain are metaphorical in relation to having faith through crisis or upheaval when a situation seems all but a lost cause, that leaning on your faith will move that mountain.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

The question remains though, in THIS day, what does this mean? Where are those faithful people with this power?

That is a good question.

Put it this way, do you feel your faith gives you the power to heal a person who is possessed by a demon? This is what the disciples puzzled at what they were unable to do. Jesus' answer was that you didn't have faith.

It seems reasonable to assume that if such a person exists they are very rare or currently non-existent. Which means faith among Christians is quite low, from God's point of view.

lmaopml

Jimi, I think most Christians understand the Lords prayer and the opening verse too.

When Christians pray they submit themselves to God's will above all things as a matter of 'faith', even if the road is difficult, and the path is really hard, it's not about 'magic' or having faith in ones own will or desires or wishes etc. or about testing God by proving faith miraculously, or about testing ourselves and how 'faithful' we are, there is only one perfect God, perfect judge. We entrust our faith to him, and pray for him to shift the mountains in our hearts.

Some people don't 'get that', they think it's an instruction to do 'magic' of some sort that is awesome, but forget that God won't be tested, and forget or indeed misrepresent that 'faith' is about trust too - where our heart is there is our faith. People are given different gifts.

A Mountain can be moved by humans right now, roads are cut through them, and motorways built over them, nothing fantastic there at all anymore - the 'mountain' that is most subborn is the one that resides within the heart, and the greatest miracles happen right there, the greatest mountains are shifted right there - a change of heart is a miracle.

PDN

JimiTime wrote: »

Matthew 17:20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

Is it that there is simply no-one alive with even a mustard seeds worth of faith? Or whats this about?

I often see fellow Christians, falling over themselves to condemn people who forsake medical attention etc, in favour of 'putting themselves in Gods hands' etc. So whats the deal? Is faith powerful or what? Or is it that no-one has even the smallest amount of it? Or is there a context here thats missing?

Jimmy, I think you're raising two distinct issues here.

One is the difference between faith and presumption, as regards forsaking medical attention. I believe that God is capable of answering prayer so that, if I crashed my motorcycle and my helmet flew off, He could still preserve my life. That would be faith. On the other hand, I could choose never to wear my crash helmet - that would be presumption.

As for faith resulting in miracles, there are plenty of people who still have faith - and they can testify to miracles.

Recently I was in a remote region of Northern India working with an indigenous church group. They work in villages that still adhere to a very primitive and intolerant variety of Hinduism (caste system still dominant etc). I asked them how on earth they start new churches in such a hostile environment, since just going into a village and preaching would get them stoned.

The reply? "We send an evangelist or pastor into a village, and they offer to pray for people. If God works a miracle and heals someone dramatically, then others are attracted and we start a church. If God doesn't work a miracle then we leave and go on to the next village."

My next question was how many churches they have started this way. The answer? Over 3000.

Much closer to home, here in Ireland I know thousands of Christians who have prayed in various situations and claim to have experienced miracles. I have seen a number myself. Having said that, miracles are still comparatively rare, whether here in Ireland or in India. And the prayers that remain unanswered would IMHO greatly outnumber the miracles.

lmaopml

PDN wrote: »

Jimmy, I think you're raising two distinct issues here.

One is the difference between faith and presumption, as regards forsaking medical attention. I believe that God is capable of answering prayer so that, if I crashed my motorcycle and my helmet flew off, He could still preserve my life. That would be faith. On the other hand, I could choose never to wear my crash helmet - that would be presumption.

As for faith resulting in miracles, there are plenty of people who still have faith - and they can testify to miracles.

Recently I was in a remote region of Northern India working with an indigenous church group. They work in villages that still adhere to a very primitive and intolerant variety of Hinduism (caste system still dominant etc). I asked them how on earth they start new churches in such a hostile environment, since just going into a village and preaching would get them stoned.

The reply? "We send an evangelist or pastor into a village, and they offer to pray for people. If God works a miracle and heals someone dramatically, then others are attracted and we start a church. If God doesn't work a miracle then we leave and go on to the next village."

My next question was how many churches they have started this way. The answer? Over 3000.

Much closer to home, here in Ireland I know thousands of Christians who have prayed in various situations and claim to have experienced miracles. I have seen a number myself. Having said that, miracles are still comparatively rare, whether here in Ireland or in India. And the prayers that remain unanswered would IMHO greatly outnumber the miracles.

I love this post PDN, about how the word is spread and how miracles do happen and then it opens the way to spreading the Gospel. To be a witness for such a living thing is really special imo.

I just wonder at prayers that remain unanswered though? Maybe they aren't always answered the way we like, but I don't think a solitary prayer goes unanswered, maybe not answered the way we like it to be always, but never unanswered on reflection...?

Peregrinus

JimiTime wrote: »

I understand the hyperbole being used, but in the context of the fact that he had just expelled a demon that the disciples could not, he still seemed to be literally saying that faith is powerful didn't he? So what do you think it means? Any ideas? Do you have any insight into it? You don't think the hyperbole was used to accentuate the literal power of faith?

Couple of thoughts:

First, faith in what, exactly? Jesus doesn’t say, explicitly. Jesus himself drove the demon out, so the implication is that the disciples lack the faith which Jesus had. But what faith is that? Elsewhere, Jesus invites people to believe in him and, specifically, to believe that he is the Messiah, but it doesn’t make sense to think that Jesus could drive out the demon because of his self-belief and, even if that were so, self-belief is faith of an entirely different kind to that to which Christians are called, whereas Jesus is calling his disciples to manifest the same faith that he himself manifests.

It’s interesting to contrast this version of the story with Mark’s rather fuller version (in Mk 9). In Mark’s version, when the disciples ask why they were unable to drive the demon out the answer is “This kind can only come out through prayer”. And that suggests that Matthew understands the “faith” that he mentions to be the kind of faith that is manifested in the “prayer” to which Mark refers.

To whom does Jesus pray? Not to himself, obviously; he always prays to the Father. So “faith” here, I think, is not a specifically Christian faith, accepting Jesus as the Messiah and/or the Son of God, but rather faith in God. Faith, as I understand it, is not simply a matter of belief, but also a matter of trust. I think the key point being got across in this story is that we are to acknowledge our dependence on God, and to trust in his providence, and if we do this we are capable of great things, extraordinary things (because, perhaps, our understanding of the nature of the relationship between ourselves and God is in line with the reality of that relationship).

As for moving mountains, that’s not in Mark’s version of this story, but it does turn up elsewhere in Mark, in the story of the withered fig tree (Mk 11:23), where those who believe in their heart can tell mountains to be uprooted and, for good measure, thrown into the sea. And something similar turns up in Luke (Lk 17:6), where it isn’t associated with any particular sign. (In Luke’s version faith the size of a mustard seed doesn’t cause mountains to move; it causes mulberry trees to uproot themselves and - again - throw themselves into the sea, but the parallel is obvious.)

So we have a similar figure of speech turning up in three completely different contexts in Mt, Mk and Lk. And I suggest that what this indicates is the there really was a figure of speech that Jesus used involving faith, prayer or belief, and comparison to a mustard seed, and immovable things moving and/or being thrown into the sea. And this was recalled by the evangelists and that imagery was used by them where they thought it would be effective in their various narratives and/or where there was a memory of Jesus actually using it. (He may have used it more than once, of course. It's a good line.)

As for impossible things that are supposed to happen, we focus on their impossibility and, therefore, the necessarily miraculous nature of their happening. But that’s perhaps because we are hung up on the natural/supernatural distinction. As you possibly know, there’s a (fringe) practice of “snake handling” among some Pentecostal churches in the US, where believers are encouraged to manifest their faith by handling venomous snakes in reliance on the promise in Mk 16 that they won’t be hurt. (They are very frequently hurt, and a number have died.) But this movement was unknown before modern times; fixation on miracles, and the “miraculosity” of miracles as a “proof” of God, is a distinctly modern phenomenon.

When Jesus says that faith can move mountains he’s not saying that faith can do miraculous (i.e. scientifically inexplicable) things; he’s saying that it can do extraordinary and extravagant things. Neither Jesus nor his audience were interested in whether these things could be scientifically accounted for. That notion - once it had been explained to them - would probably have struck them as not very interesting.

The irony is that we can and do move mountains, by natural means - enough explosives, and enough big trucks, and enough organization, will do the trick. And a great many things that we achieve by faith - hospitals, universities, the writing of the scriptures, great art, monasticism - are not at all scientifically inexplicable. That doesn’t diminish their importance as signs of faith.

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

Jimmy, I think you're raising two distinct issues here.

One is the difference between faith and presumption, as regards forsaking medical attention. I believe that God is capable of answering prayer so that, if I crashed my motorcycle and my helmet flew off, He could still preserve my life. That would be faith. On the other hand, I could choose never to wear my crash helmet - that would be presumption.

As for faith resulting in miracles, there are plenty of people who still have faith - and they can testify to miracles.

Recently I was in a remote region of Northern India working with an indigenous church group. They work in villages that still adhere to a very primitive and intolerant variety of Hinduism (caste system still dominant etc). I asked them how on earth they start new churches in such a hostile environment, since just going into a village and preaching would get them stoned.

The reply? "We send an evangelist or pastor into a village, and they offer to pray for people. If God works a miracle and heals someone dramatically, then others are attracted and we start a church. If God doesn't work a miracle then we leave and go on to the next village."

My next question was how many churches they have started this way. The answer? Over 3000.

Much closer to home, here in Ireland I know thousands of Christians who have prayed in various situations and claim to have experienced miracles. I have seen a number myself. Having said that, miracles are still comparatively rare, whether here in Ireland or in India. And the prayers that remain unanswered would IMHO greatly outnumber the miracles.

Here's the thing. And please be aware, that I'm being slightly devils advocate here. There's little ambiguity in what Jesus says about faith. With faith, YOU can tell the mountain to move (yes I know its hyperbole, but the point stands). He doesn't say, 'and God will then run it through a filter and decide if its what he wants too'. In turn with this, consider what he says about asking ones father for bread and not been given a stone instead.

So this powerful faith that Jesus speaks of, does not resemble this 'Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't' type of doctrine does it? The language seems to suggest something you can take to the bank! Now I'm not saying we SHOULD be seeing people moving mountains, but the scripture seems to indicate something a lot more powerful than this 'maybe' doctrine. I think of Elisha and the bears, Jesus raising Lazarus, the apostles healing people. These people did not have 'touch and go' moments. They spoke with faith and the spirit of God, and their words by no means fell to the ground.

Not only do I say the above, but I also say that having ambiguity about this is actually dangerous, as it opens wide the way for falsehood in these matters. I put forward a theory on these matters, and I do so without scoffing at 'miracle' claims etc. This is my theory: Contrary to many modern Christian movements, the gifts of the spirit are not imparted on people at this moment in time, but God still hears our supplications. He chooses if and when he acts, but the power bestowed on the people of biblical times is being stored up to return to mankind at an appointed time. When God once again pours out his spirit upon those he annoints, there will be no ambiguity, no 'hit and miss', just spiritual authority like the apostles had. At the moment, its like the times described in 1 Sam 3:1 The boy Samuel ministered before the LORD under Eli. In those days the word of the LORD was rare; there were not many visions.
So what does that mean in terms of Jesus' saying on Faith. Well, in my theory, which is there to be reasoned/tweaked/shot to pieces:), I would put forward that he was speaking to those with him at that point in time. Those anointed to be his disciples then. This power given to them as a witness to where the gospel they would preach had come from. Once it had gone throughout the earth, there was little need for the supernatural element of the witness. As we go through the ages, and the witness gets more and more scoffed at and diluted/corrupted, God will once again anoint his disciples with the gifts of the spirit as a witness for the nations before Armageddon comes.

Feel free to pull it to pieces:)

Coillte_Bhoy

qrrgprgua wrote: »

]Many in Ireland who say they are Religious or Catholics have little or no real faith. If you really believed in Christ it would change your life. He came to tell us to cure in his name.. Since we have lost his faith he no longer has disciples to carry forth is message. I think somewhere in the Gospels, he says will he find faith on earth when he returns.

Exactly, yet in a census thread you're celebrating the fact that 84% say they are catholic. Bit hypocritical, no?

lmaopml

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Exactly, yet in a census thread you're celebrating the fact that 84% say they are catholic. Bit hypocritical, no?

Yes, it is in some ways - but the truth is that there are very many people you could point the finger at as being 'hypocritical' - everybody is a hypocrit - you too, but everybody is human with the means to self examine.

I think I agree with Jimi in some ways, it's a good thread - and a nice diversion too!

I don't think that one can expect to always call down what we call a miracle - I think the greatest miracles are more subtle, actually the subtle ones are probably the ones that change the course of a persons life and that is the power of Christ, and Christianity, it's a new outlook, a new vantage point, one that allows a person to say something is good, something is bad - and not say some actions like Nazism was 'merely' wrong to some people but not to others - It's common sense. Christ is full of common sense and wisdom and love - he takes no prisoners. He doesn't do 'merely'.