Would like a CMOD to review

CptSternn

Hi all.

Could a CMOD please review a few posts for us?

Here is a thread that was closed:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056582396

What is bothering is the mod closed it, then edited a few posts and has since added new content. Not only that, he posted a defence of the people involved and claimed we were unfairly blaming travelers even though they were mentioned in the news article posted, then later he deleted his posts even after the thread was closed, apparently to save face. Should mods be editing their own incorrect posts after closing a thread?

This thread I am also requesting review on:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056582994

To sum up why, I will repost what I said to the MOD...

Clareman wrote:

Hi,

I am not defending anyone or any group, this is an ongoing legal issue so it can't be discussed freely on here, also I didn't take from your post that you were speaking about just the people involved yesterday, I took it to say that you were speaking about all members of the travelling community.

Per the legal issue, the legal issue was never discussed. All I said was they ran through a school brandishing a machete. This has been reported by every news outlet in the country and a few international wires in Europe as well. You cannot claim I was discussing something I clearly wasn't especially if the information I posted was nothing more than had already been reported by international media.

Per the 'animals' comment, you need to go back and read the post more clearly. Not trying to say you have a poor comprehension of English grammar, but the structure of my sentence and the paragraph clearly show I was speaking about a select group.

I started first with a post clearly stating I wasn't speaking about all travelers.

I'm in no way saying all travelers are bad

I then followed up by speaking of specific incidents regarding the travelers in question

For example they brought in an arbitrator to work with them last year

THEM in this sentence is clearly not all travelers, I am speaking specifically about the group involved in the local feud.

This was followed by this sentence...

And here we are again, another school and hundreds of small children terrorised, scarred for life, by these animals.

Again THESE makes reference to the aforementioned subject of the ones involved in the arbitration, the ones who engaged in the verb in the sentence, the ones who terrorised.

I think you have over reacted and you need to go back and read the post more clearly as you have obviously had it in your mind to block such posts and are using your lack of grammar comprehension as a reason to penalise myself. I also think an apology is in order.



The bottom line is we are not discussing anything more than is currently in the local/national/international news. The names, addresses, and details of those arrested have been made public. Many of us have small children under the age of six who personally witnessed this behaviour this time AND the previous incident two years ago when the same people hacked the fingers off another man in front of OUR children. All we are asking is that we can openly discuss current events in our area like they do in other forums. If anyone strays from that, then feel free to moderate them, but to stop threads when nothing has happened in efforts to stop something from happening is a bit draconian (thought crime?).


Thanks in advance!

Mr Magnolia

I'm reviewing this now.

CptSternn

Mr Magnolia wrote: »

I'm reviewing this now.

Thanks!

Mr Magnolia

CptSternn wrote: »

Hi all.

Could a CMOD please review a few posts for us?

Here is a thread that was closed:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056582396

What is bothering is the mod closed it, then edited a few posts and has since added new content. Not only that, he posted a defence of the people involved and claimed we were unfairly blaming travelers even though they were mentioned in the news article posted, then later he deleted his posts even after the thread was closed, apparently to save face. Should mods be editing their own incorrect posts after closing a thread?

I can see deleted posts and edits and there are no deleted posts on that thread.

The moderator has agreed to leave 'closed threads closed' in future as users are unable to discuss the updates being provided. I agree with the call that the thread is best left closed as speculation about the event could hinder any prosecutions.

This thread I am also requesting review on:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056582994

To sum up why, I will repost what I said to the MOD...



Per the legal issue, the legal issue was never discussed. All I said was they ran through a school brandishing a machete. This has been reported by every news outlet in the country and a few international wires in Europe as well. You cannot claim I was discussing something I clearly wasn't especially if the information I posted was nothing more than had already been reported by international media.

Per the 'animals' comment, you need to go back and read the post more clearly. Not trying to say you have a poor comprehension of English grammar, but the structure of my sentence and the paragraph clearly show I was speaking about a select group.

I started first with a post clearly stating I wasn't speaking about all travelers.



I then followed up by speaking of specific incidents regarding the travelers in question



THEM in this sentence is clearly not all travelers, I am speaking specifically about the group involved in the local feud.

This was followed by this sentence...



Again THESE makes reference to the aforementioned subject of the ones involved in the arbitration, the ones who engaged in the verb in the sentence, the ones who terrorised.

I think you have over reacted and you need to go back and read the post more clearly as you have obviously had it in your mind to block such posts and are using your lack of grammar comprehension as a reason to penalise myself. I also think an apology is in order.



The bottom line is we are not discussing anything more than is currently in the local/national/international news. The names, addresses, and details of those arrested have been made public. Many of us have small children under the age of six who personally witnessed this behaviour this time AND the previous incident two years ago when the same people hacked the fingers off another man in front of OUR children. All we are asking is that we can openly discuss current events in our area like they do in other forums. If anyone strays from that, then feel free to moderate them, but to stop threads when nothing has happened in efforts to stop something from happening is a bit draconian (thought crime?).


Thanks in advance!

Discussion on forum moderation is not the fodder for regional forums. The helpdesk or feedback are designed and moderated by the Admin to ensure a balanced debate on moderation. The moderator made the correct call in closing this thread, in fact it should have been closed as soon as it was noted.

Generally we leave calls on specific events like this up to the forum moderators to decide upon as they cause a lot of hassle and work for the mods, there's no hard fast rule. Generally there's not much to actually discuss with regard to such topics. Nobody likes stifling discussion but where court cases are pending moderators are asked to err on the side of caution.


Regarding the post for which you received an infraction:

CptSternn wrote: »

I want to add I don't want them to be singled out, but I also don't think they deserve special treatment. For example they brought in an arbitrator to work with them last year at a cost to us the tax payer. How much did they spend again on this? The arbitrator was one of the men who negotiated the Good Friday Agreement, and he wasn't cheap.

And here we are again, another school and hundreds of small children terrorised, scarred for life, by these animals. Thats not fair, as calling them animals makes animals look bad.

I think they should be treated like anyone else who would engage in such behavior - lock them away for life. Does anyone here really think if you or I did something so abhorrent that we wouldn't be locked away for years?

Take off the kid gloves and stop pouring money down that hole.

By starting your second paragraph with 'and here we are again' it reads that you're continuing to refer to the same group in your second paragraph that you were in your first. You have not provided adequate separation between your statements if this was indeed what you were trying to do.

Black Swan

RED CARD REVIEW

The DRP forum has normally been used to resolve official warnings, infractions, and bans. An infraction (red card) associated with this DRP had resulted from the following posts on a thread started by CptSternn in the Clare forum:

CptSternn wrote: »

So we can't discuss Travelers?

It's not like we are coming here and just randomly singling out a group of people for an inappropriate discussion. These people over the past year have been behaving like this in public.

CptSternn wrote: »

So we can't discuss Travelers?

I want to add I don't want them to be singled out, but I also don't think they deserve special treatment...

And here we are again, another school and hundreds of small children terrorised, scarred for life, by these animals. Thats not fair, as calling them animals makes animals look bad.

Although this may, or may not have been CptSternn’s intention, it would appear from these comments that an unfortunate association could easily have been made between “Travelers” and “animals.” Consistent with this view, please see Beruthiel’s post in Help regarding the substitution of Blacks for Travelers in CptSternn’s above posts. Yet another poster made the same association on the Clare forum. It places the action of mod Clareman into perspective, and justifies it.

TWO VIOLATIONS OF FORUM CHARTER

Two threads in the Clare forum started by CptSternn violated the charter twice regarding in-thread discussion of moderation. Not to discuss moderation in-thread applies to the Clare forum, and also most forums within boards.ie, which should have been known by CptSternn, who has been a member of boards since February 2007. Examples:

CptSternn wrote: »

So we can't discuss Travelers? Just curious as why this topic is VERBOTEN. I mean, every thread over the past few years has been heavily modded and then closed.

CptSternn wrote: »

I won't flame the fires here, as I have already started the dispute resolution process to see if we can't get a few threads unlocked here...
Until the current dispute process runs its course, anyone who wants to join in a healthy conversation about topics currently banned...

Contrary to what CptSternn claims about the Clare forum being “heavily modded,” the fact that CptSternn had not been banned for a closely occurring and repeated violation of the Charter regarding in-thread discussions of moderation suggests otherwise. Furthermore, closing these threads was consistent with the Charter and justified.

SUMMARY

• Agree with the points covered by Regional Cmod Mr Magnolia (above); especially regarding the exercise of caution in closing threads that may be associated with an ongoing criminal investigation.
• Agree with the closing of two threads that had been started by CptSternn to specifically discuss moderation, which were in violation of the Charter, as well as accepted posting practices for most forums on boards regarding in-thread discussion of moderation.
• Although CptSternn may or may not have intended for his red carded post to be received as it was by both mods and other members of his audience, I do not find compelling evidence from his DRP comments (above), or from the thread review to overturn the action by mod Clareman, therefore it stands.

It appears that the requested Cmod review of this DRP has been completed. If CptSternn wishes to ask for a review by the Administration, he should do so now. If not, then it is requested that this DRP be closed as resolved.

CptSternn

After having reviewed many threads here in the forum, it appears no one ever gets anything overturned, it's just the CMODS backing up the MODS and the ADMIN then backing up the CMOD.

Is there any reason to further the DRP?

It's a sad day when men with machetes wearing masks can run through my son's school hacking off peoples fingers in front of small children who are now scarred for life, and we can't say boo about it because the MODS here @ Boards.ie are more worried about offending the people who engaged in this behaviour than they are the victims of this heinous crime.

CptSternn

How do we get an admin to review it? Might as well go the full monty since we are here sure! I would like to see this through.

Black Swan

CptSternn wrote: »

How do we get an admin to review it?

CptSternn requests Administrative review. Would an Admin please review this DRP at their earliest convenience? Thanks.

Khannie

Black Swan wrote: »

CptSternn requests Administrative review. Would an Admin please review this DRP at their earliest convenience? Thanks.

I'll look into this. I've read the threads in question and need some clarification on something. It might take a while to get that given the weekend that's in it so hold tight please CptSternn.

CptSternn

Khannie wrote: »

I'll look into this. I've read the threads in question and need some clarification on something. It might take a while to get that given the weekend that's in it so hold tight please CptSternn.

No worries, it's a holiday weekend sure!

Thanks!

Khannie

Alright....let's get down to this so....

First off, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about what DRP is for. You don't post in here if you have a disagreement with how a moderator moderates. This is only for appealing against any disciplinary measures that have been imposed on you. In this case that means the red card. Since some aspects of moderation have already been discussed I'll address them.

CptSternn wrote: »

What is bothering is the mod closed it, then edited a few posts and has since added new content. Not only that, he posted a defence of the people involved and claimed we were unfairly blaming travelers even though they were mentioned in the news article posted, then later he deleted his posts even after the thread was closed, apparently to save face. Should mods be editing their own incorrect posts after closing a thread?

First off, nearly none of this is true and that's a bad start. There was one edited post and no deleted posts from that thread. It is theoretically possible that a post was made and deleted within the short timeframe after posting that means the database doesn't keep track of it. I'm pretty sure this is around the 60 second mark and if that is the case, the mod removed them for reasons that will remain up to them. We're all entitled to delete a post within that timeframe and consider it water under the bridge. The one and only edit was done to add a news link.

CptSternn wrote: »

After having reviewed many threads here in the forum, it appears no one ever gets anything overturned, it's just the CMODS backing up the MODS and the ADMIN then backing up the CMOD.

This is also not true. I have personally overturned decisions in here as a cmod and on many occasions I have reached a conclusion or compromise that both parties are happy with.

The reason most decisions are upheld is that most decisions are sound. There are also quite a few people who come in here to chance their arm. That's just the nature of the forum.

Mr Magnolia wrote: »

Discussion on forum moderation is not the fodder for regional forums. The helpdesk or feedback are designed and moderated by the Admin to ensure a balanced debate on moderation. The moderator made the correct call in closing this thread, in fact it should have been closed as soon as it was noted.

Couldn't agree more with this. You are not to start another thread in that forum discussing the moderation within that forum.

CptSternn wrote: »

It's a sad day when men with machetes wearing masks can run through my son's school hacking off peoples fingers in front of small children who are now scarred for life, and we can't say boo about it because the MODS here @ Boards.ie are more worried about offending the people who engaged in this behaviour than they are the victims of this heinous crime.

I agree with you that it's a very sad day when that happens in a school. If it happened in my childs school I would definitely be very, very upset about it. Having said that, you've been given a clear reason on more than one occasion on why you can't discuss a pending legal case. I'm not sure what more anyone can do for you there.

On to the red card: You try and (rudely!) argue your way out of it in the first post, even going so far as to demand an apology. It doesn't stack up for me. If you're going to make posts that can be interpreted as a racial slur (and yours easily could be), you're going to have to be careful about your wording or face the consequences. Given your explanation I considered lowering it to a yellow, but I feel that would be too light. The red card stands.

I can understand how it's bloody awful for you to have to live with things like that happening in your neighbourhood and it's perfectly natural that you would like to discuss them with people from your locality. The pending legal case means that's not a runner though unfortunately. Firing up threads questioning moderation isn't a runner either (have a look at the helpdesk / feedback, though I'm pretty sure you already have). Maybe when the case is over you can discuss the issue, though given your history on the forum over this issue I'd suggest you tread carefully when doing so.

CptSternn

Khannie wrote: »

First off, nearly none of this is true and that's a bad start. There was one edited post and no deleted posts from that thread. It is theoretically possible that a post was made and deleted within the short timeframe after posting that means the database doesn't keep track of it. I'm pretty sure this is around the 60 second mark and if that is the case, the mod removed them for reasons that will remain up to them. We're all entitled to delete a post within that timeframe and consider it water under the bridge. The one and only edit was done to add a news link.

Edited and removing what you said is just as bad and no different in this case. The mod posted that we should all be ashamed because the person in question was not a member of the travelling community. Within the hour the news reported the opposite. The mod by then had locked the thread and then when he was found to be wrong deleted his original comment by editing it.

So my claim regarding this is true, and bad form since he had the last word (i.e. telling us all off) and then later after locking the thread removed his incorrect postings telling us off.

I can understand how it's bloody awful for you to have to live with things like that happening in your neighbourhood and it's perfectly natural that you would like to discuss them with people from your locality. The pending legal case means that's not a runner though unfortunately. Firing up threads questioning moderation isn't a runner either (have a look at the helpdesk / feedback, though I'm pretty sure you already have). Maybe when the case is over you can discuss the issue, though given your history on the forum over this issue I'd suggest you tread carefully when doing so.

But this isn't just about the current case. This is the second time in a year this has happened and there have been multiple previous events that are just as bad if not worse which have already made their way through the system, but any discussion of those is locked as well.

When we talk about the travellers running through the school with machetes, we are talking about the time LAST summer when they butchered the man in the car park in front of dozens of 5-7 year old children, not this newest almost identical event.

I'll abide by your decision, fair enough, but just wanted to clarify those two points.

Khannie

CptSternn wrote: »

Edited and removing what you said is just as bad and no different in this case. The mod posted that we should all be ashamed because the person in question was not a member of the travelling community.

I checked again. You are partly correct, so my apologies. The original post did include this:

"none of the people arrested are down as members of the travelling community".

There was no mention of the word ashamed or any indication that anyone should be ashamed. It was just a statement of fact as the mod understood it at the time. To be fair he did link to posts indicating that the accused were living on a halting site.

CptSternn wrote: »

But this isn't just about the current case. This is the second time in a year this has happened and there have been multiple previous events that are just as bad if not worse which have already made their way through the system, but any discussion of those is locked as well.

When we talk about the travellers running through the school with machetes, we are talking about the time LAST summer when they butchered the man in the car park in front of dozens of 5-7 year old children, not this newest almost identical event.

I'll abide by your decision, fair enough, but just wanted to clarify those two points.

Fair enough. I think we're done here. I think it's possible to have the discussion you want, but you'll need to be very careful while having it. Maybe have a chat with the mod up front about what's OK and what's crossing the line. Mods are volunteers and they don't necessarily want to spend their time dealing with keeping threads from crossing the line into contempt of court.

Black Swan

Khannie wrote: »

I think we're done here.

Given that the Admin decision is final for DRPs, and Admin Khannie has concluded that "I think we're done here," it is requested that this DRP be closed and marked resolved.