Drive train refresh

jozi

A friend has asked me to give her bike a good going over but I need some help choosing components.

The bike is a Giant Cypress ladies bike like this one

Here are the components I thought of getting but I'm not sure if they are compatible with each other of if they fit her bike

Shimano Alivio Chainset Octalink M410 - 170 or 175mm?
Shimano ES25 Bottom Bracket Octalink - Which size is correct?
Shimano HG50 Chain 7 Speed
Shimano Tiagra Cassette 7 Speed HG50

If there are better and cheaper alternatives to the above I'd also like to hear, she's on a very low budget to get her bike fixed and properly usable again. I also have to replace her brake pads and all cables but this is a bit more straight forward.

Does anyone know if this: Cyclo Tools Pro Series Cassette Lockring Remover Shimano Fit will work with the cassette? Also, any recommendation for the tool to remove the bottom bracket? X-Tools BB Tool Octalink/Square

Thanks,
Jozi

Paul Kiernan

Do you really need to change the BB and the crankset? Are they loose/worn?
It appears to have an RPM square taper BB. It's not clear whether the rear 7-speed is a cassette or a screw-on freewheel? The tool you need will depend on what it is. That's the correct BB tool, it's a lot of money for something you'll use once! You'll also need a crank removal tool.

I'd be inclined to change just the chain, assuming it's rusty! Get some degreaser and a toothbrush and clean up everything else. If you have the tools open up BB, headset, wheel bearings and degrease, clean and regrease with something like this.

This shop will have most of what you need at better prices than CRC.

jozi

Thanks for your reply Paul.

She has been complaining about a clicking in her BB for a long time now which was the reason behind adding this to the list.

She does have a rusty chain alright, and after 4yrs of use I think the teeth both front and rear will be like hooks. I may get away with replacing both and a chain and leaving the BB for another time?

If looking at the rear cassette, how do I determine if it's screw on or not? I know on my own bike there was a locking ring.

Thanks also for the link to that other site, I must have a look and compare both with the parts I need.

Paul Kiernan

I had got it in my head that the bike was suffering from lack of use, not overuse, my mistake:o.

Check chain wear. Each link is one inch long so 12 links should be 12". If it's up to about 12 1/8" everything is probably OK, if 12 1/8" to 12 1/4" you'll need to replace chain and cassette and if more than 12 1/4" then chainrings are probably gone too.

BB's are cheap enough so if you're replacing the cranks it's probably best to do the BB too (if you can get the old one off:)).

When in doubt, give Sheldon a shout.

jozi

Definitely over use and lack of maintenance. Last phone call was about her brakes screeching, the screeching being the pads worn to nothing and a metal on metal sound. So the big overhaul is to happen now.

Will the crank come of with some wiggling (or a bit of force) or do I need the tool?

I'll get her to measure a complete link on the chain, should be fun, and go from there.

woody_2000

jozi wrote: »

If there are better and cheaper alternatives to the above I'd also like to hear, she's on a very low budget to get her bike fixed and properly usable again. I also have to replace her brake pads and all cables but this is a bit more straight forward.

The above mentioned Woolly Hat Shop has an interesting selection of Shimano Acera groupset options. This might be an interesting and worthwhile upgrade to the bike - and a drivetrain and v-brake option might be the way to go - because of brake levers, brake blocks, etc. The bike probably uses a 68mm BB cassette and the BB axle/spindle length on the included BB cassette should match the included chainset. Not sure if brake/shifter cables are included. Unless she's very tall (i.e. 5' 10"+) a 170mm crank length should probably be sufficient.

Other things to consider might a new steering headset if the existing one is a bit "iffy" - and some good grease and ball bearings for the wheel hubs is probably a must (3/16" bearing for front hub and 1/4" ball bearing for rear hub). Also check for scoring/pitting in the hub cups and cones. Suitable spanners for hubs are required. New pedals might also be required, and a suitable spanner for same.

Specialist tools required for the drivetrain would be a tool to remove/fit the BB, a tool to remove the crankset (or an angle grinder used very carefully) tools to fit/remove the rear cassette, and a chain tool.

It could be a worthwhile project if the frame, forks, handlebars/stem, wheels, etc. are in serviceable condition - and a good cost effective upgrade to give you essentially a functionally new and higher spec. bike. New tyres/tubes may also be a worthwhile investment.

I completely refurbished a 4 year old Giant Escape with new/upgraded parts in a similar manner very recently - giving the bike a completely new lease of life, and at less than half the price of getting a similarly specified new bike.

Hopefully there's some answers in there for you somewhere. Just my passing 2c. Rgds.

Paul Kiernan

You're very unlikely to get the cranks off without the tool. Most likely you'll break something and you'll certainly remove most of the skin from your knuckles:).

You could buy a complete toolset for €40-50 which would contain essentials like the BB tool, the crank remover, cassette tool, chain whip, chain breaker as well as other specialist and general tools.

jozi

Thanks for the advice Woody. I agree with you on upgrading parts but unfortunately she's not in a position to be spending big money. I thought about her wheels and headset needing new bearings but I'm going to guess she won't be interested or have the money, I'll put it by her though!

What do you measure to work out the BB cassette? 170mm cranks is prop right, she's not very tall. Angle grinder to cut the chain of, sounds like fun

I'll have a look into buying a toolset although I already have the chain breaker and rear cassette that works with my own bike.

woody_2000

jozi wrote: »

Thanks for the advice Woody. I agree with you on upgrading parts but unfortunately she's not in a position to be spending big money. I thought about her wheels and headset needing new bearings but I'm going to guess she won't be interested or have the money, I'll put it by her though!

What do you measure to work out the BB cassette? 170mm cranks is prop right, she's not very tall. Angle grinder to cut the chain of, sounds like fun

I'll have a look into buying a toolset although I already have the chain breaker and rear cassette that works with my own bike.

A new headset could probably be got for around €10-15, and wheel hub ball bearings and grease should probably cost no more than about €5. So approx. €20 in total for both. Whatever about the headset, the wheel bearings should probably be done anyway. If the ball bearings are ok (i.e. shiny and reflective) then maybe just some good quality grease should be ok.

AFAIK, a 68mm BB shell/casing length is probably the most usual, and that's what my Giant Escape uses. That's more than likely what the Giant Cypress uses also. The axle/spindle length is mainly determined by the crankset being used and this is often specified with the crankset. A full drivetrain groupset will already have the correct/matching axle/spindle length BB included.

I had to get the ol' angle grinder out, as the crankset was beyond removing by other more usual means. Great care is required though! :eek:

It's a pity to waste good frame/forks, wheels, etc. - and you will have an upgraded spec. bike at the end of it. The right tools are always invaluable for good maintenance

woody_2000

Just had a look back over this thread, and just to clarify on the groupset link I linked to previously. The link I provided might not have been that clear. Here's a better link directly to an example Shimano Acera groupset: click here.

The total Acera drivetrain and v-brake groupset appears to work out at less than €150, which isn't too bad at all - especially for an upgraded spec, and compares very favourably to the components you were initially considering.

Approx. €200 in parts could give you a completely refurbished bike which would probably cost over €400 new. Rgds.

Paul Kiernan

The length of a bottom bracket is measured from the outside edges of the crank spindle. It varies from about 110mm to 122mm. A few mm out probably won't matter a great deal as the front mech can usually adjust sufficiently to handle it. The type of crank usually dictates what length BB is required.

Some more info from Sheldon here.

In my opinion, and with all due respect, the bike in question is not an expensive model. All the components, from frame to finishing kit, are from the budget end of the spectrum. I would not be inclined to throw a lot of money at it. By all means, buy a mid range component if it's on clearance at 70% off, but otherwise just stick with the budget one.

Check out these German sites as well, Rose (cranksets from €13!), €6 delivery and Bike Discount, €8 delivery.

woody_2000

Paul Kiernan wrote: »

Check out these German sites as well, Rose (cranksets from €13!), €6 delivery and Bike Discount, €8 delivery.

Rose is where I got most of my parts last month. A full 8-speed Alivio drivetrain cost me approx. €120 including a combo Alivio brake/shifter with all brake/shifter cables included. I spent a total of approx. €250 on my bike, plus tools and maintainance products (approx. €350 total). That included tyres, saddle, pedals, brake pads, etc. To get something similar new would cost over €500. Apart from a few minor scratches on the frame, etc. the bike is as good as new - and with an arguably better and more consistent spec. Buying the drivetrain from Rose cost approx. half of what it would cost from Chain Reaction Cycles. I also sourced parts from Amazon (Reebok saddle and EBC disc brake pads) and Chain Reaction Cycles (wellgo 939 pedals) also.

Woolly Hat compares very favourably for the newer version Acera 9-speed groupset.

on_the_nickel

This thread was not what I was expecting having slightly mis-read the first sentence.

jozi

The going over bit was it :P

I spoke to her earlier, she can't really allow herself to spend big money on this. Part because of job uncertainty and the possibility of leaving the country.

So just the drive train, I might throw in some wheel bearings and a headset if I can get her to stretch to it.

She measured her chain earlier today, approx 12" 1/4 so the lot has to go I think. I'll have a gander tomorrow or over the weekend and the other sites mentioned and stick a post up. Many thanks for all the advice everyone.

woody_2000

If on a tight budget maybe the following might work (8-speed):

Shimano Nexus single speed crankset - €16.00
Shimano Altus rear derailleur - €13.50
Shimano HG31 8-speed cassette - €7.50
Shimano HG70 chain - €12.00
Shimano UN55 bottom bracket - €11.00

Total drivetrain cost - €60.00

Shifter(s), etc. would be a seperate matter for consideration - plus cables, etc. Maybe keep one combo shifter, and remove the other and get a new brake lever (left?) for €8.

Headset €9-€11, not sure which type you may have.

Shimano ball bearings - €4 (€2 per wheel) Grease, etc..

Pricing from Rose, and is probably as good as you can get. I think, also, if you go to their Facebook page there's a €10 discount voucher available - which could be useful to mitigate the shipping charge, which is now a flat €8.95.

Again, just a budget suggestion which might work.

cdaly_

jozi wrote: »

The going over bit was it :P

I spoke to her earlier, she can't really allow herself to spend big money on this. Part because of job uncertainty and the possibility of leaving the country.

So just the drive train, I might throw in some wheel bearings and a headset if I can get her to stretch to it.

She measured her chain earlier today, approx 12" 1/4 so the lot has to go I think. I'll have a gander tomorrow or over the weekend and the other sites mentioned and stick a post up. Many thanks for all the advice everyone.

I have gone through about 5 or 6 chains on my current chainrings and they're still fine. One or two of those chains were overstretched such that I had to change the cassette. You might get away with keeping the crankset.

I have, in the past, removed cranks from a square taper BB using a large spanner and a light hammer. Open end of large spanner (22mm or thereabouts) goes between crank and frame.

1. Loosen crank retaining bolt about 2 turns
2. Place open end of large spanner between crank and frame such that the BB is within the spanner end
3. Lever the spanner so that it is trying to pull the crank off the BB
4. Hit the end of the crank retaining bolt sharply a number of times while putting pressure on the spanner.

This has worked for me sometimes but is not guaranteed to work.

Alternatively, if you're buying parts in the LBS, they'll probably be happy to take off the cranks and BB for you.

jozi

I'm going to leave the headset and wheels for the moment anyway. Pretty much the same parts as Woody listed with 2 changes.

SHIMANO Alivio crankset FC-M 411 - 170mm
SHIMANO bottom bracket BB-UN55 - I think I need a 122mm BB?
SHIMANO CS-HG 50 cassette, 7-speed
SHIMANO Chain CN-HG70 7-/8-speed

And these tools:
IceToolz bottom bracket tool for Shimano and Xtreme crank extractor

I have something like this for the sprocket SHIMANO sprocket extractor TL-FW30 or would this be better Xtreme HG/IG sprocket extractor

Do I need a chain whip thing? Looking at the above and then just spotting this Xtreme tool box All2gether II although not sure if it has all I need or if I even need it.

woody_2000

The 122mm BB should be fine with that chainset. That's what I got.

The sprocket extractor you already have should be ok, I imagine. I have the Xtreme extractor you linked to (I just bought a load of Xtreme tool with my recent order).

You might be able to get by without the chain whip, but it's handy to have. A piece of softwood, for example, could possibly be stuck/hammered onto the sprocket teeth to use as an anchor to assist the sprocket extractor tool to remove the sprocket.

I considered the tool kit - but it didn't match what I needed, so I just got the tools I needed individually.

It still might be no harm to degrease/grease the hub bearings, even though there might be a bit of work involved. Hub bearings should probably be serviced on a regular basis - i.e. at least once a year, with moderate use.

Paul Kiernan

I presume you're certain it's a cassette and not a freewheel:)?

Lidl have a toolkit from next Monday might be worth checking out -

http://www.lidl.ie/cps/rde/xchg/lidl_ri_ie/hs.xsl/index_19522.htm

jozi

I'm actually not certain at all if it's a sprocket or cassette How will someone who just cycles a bike be able to tell? I'm not even certain myself, I know mine slides of once the locking ring is un-done, a sprocket would be similar to my bmx and have lugs on it to get it of? I'll get her to send me a picture

That kit from Lidl, will it do everything I'll need it to do for what I intend on doing?

Paul Kiernan

The Freehub (cassette) type usually (but not always!) has a bulge in the hub casing on the drive side, while the freewheel type is usually the same on both sides. By "hub casing" I mean the cyclindrical shaped piece of metal that covers the axle from the spokes on one side to the spokes on the other.

I'd imagine the Lidl toolset has most modern tools but it's not clear from the description. You'd really have to go and look at it.

jozi

Anyone know is this a freehub or freewheel?

Mycroft H

Freewheel by the looks of it. Those mega-range shimano setups are only freewheels from what I've seen



However the only sure fire way to tell is to look at the hub.


And to remove that you need a Shimano fit UG freewheel tool. (thats if its definitely a freewheel, which I'm 97% sure it is)

jozi

And it continues


It's the screw of type?

Mycroft H

jozi wrote: »

And it continues


It's the screw of type?

I am fairly certain it is. Freehubs usually have a bulge near the cassette end (not all of them mind you)

You need a big adjustable and lots of brute force to remove them aswell as the correct tool.


More info
http://sheldonbrown.com/free-k7.html

jozi

Can this guy be used to remove the cassette? http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=7975