National Army Museum On-line vote for best commander the British faced - Collins link

CDfm

The bold Michael is facing stiff competition from Ataturk at the moment.

You can vote until 30 March.

http://www.nam.ac.uk/exhibitions/online-exhibitions/enemy-commanders-britains-greatest-foes/michael-collins

Cardinal Richelieu

Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck got my vote. Often over looked part of WW1, surprised we have never seen his story on the big screen.

jonniebgood1

Maybe not a commander in the army sense but Gandhi had Britain at his beck and call.

Manach

A very diverse group - would have like to see at a Roman commander in there. As the Cardinal pointed out von Lettow-Vorbeck, had an amazing endevour in Africa during WWI.

Judgement Day

George Washington gets my vote - damn colonials. Things have never been the same since they got their independence. Still at least we got our own back by burning the White House in 1814.

Cardinal Richelieu

You seem to be able to vote for as many of the candidates as you want.

CDfm

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

You seem to be able to vote for as many of the candidates as you want.

I can only drop hints :pac:

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

I can only drop hints :pac:

Is there no way around the registration - or is that a must in order to just even vote?

MarchDub

Judgement Day wrote: »

George Washington gets my vote - damn colonials. Things have never been the same since they got their independence. Still at least we got our own back by burning the White House in 1814.

No consideration - and the White House was designed by an Irishman too!

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

Is there no way around the registration - or is that a must in order to just even vote?

Are you sure you are not going to waste your vote -lots of people are very confused about how they should vote :rolleyes:

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

Are you sure you are not going to waste your vote -lots of people are very confused about how they should vote :rolleyes:

That's always a confusion - or the consequences frequently are :eek:

dubhthach

MarchDub wrote: »

No consideration - and the White House was designed by an Irishman too!

Yes but from "Lowry country", thence the desire to build a "copy" with that proposed casino/race course (thankfully shot down)

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

That's always a confusion - or the consequences frequently are :eek:

Its best to go with the safe option.

MarchDub

OK - Voted for Collins. Looks like we need to get more votes for him lads. He is still in second place...

jonniebgood1

Its a fix to discredit Collins- Ataturk had little or no beef with the Brits in comparison!

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

OK - Voted for Collins. Looks like we need to get more votes for him lads. He is still in second place...

Just the one vote :eek:

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

Just the one vote :eek:

I take it that we can vote for as many candidates as we want, but not more than once for the same guy? Sounds counter-productive and maybe to Jonnie's point, that's the aim. That's all I see anyway - I don't get any '+' sign on Collins now that I have voted.

Cardinal Richelieu

MarchDub wrote: »

I take it that we can vote for as many candidates as we want, but not more than once for the same guy? Sounds counter-productive and maybe to Jonnie's point, that's the aim. That's all I see anyway - I don't get any '+' sign on Collins now that I have voted.

Yes. The Sunday Times last weekend mentioned they had put in software to prevent multiple voting on the same candidate especially as the Irish has prior history with internet polls. A practically unknown former Bray player was voted best soccer player in the world.

MarchDub

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

Yes. The Sunday Times last weekend mentioned they had put in software to prevent multiple voting on the same candidate especially as the Irish has prior history with internet polls. A practically unknown former Bray player was voted best soccer player in the world.

Thanks - Not surprised. You know the Brits have a long history of either not liking the way we vote or just denying us the right altogether.

eire4

MarchDub wrote: »

Thanks - Not surprised. You know the Brits have a long history of either not liking the way we vote or just denying us the right altogether.

Haha I liked that one. I voted for Collins but he was trailing by 250 odd earlier this morning.

Cardinal Richelieu

eire4 wrote: »

Haha I liked that one. I voted for Collins but he was trailing by 250 odd earlier this morning.

It doesn't really matter at the moment, Collins has enough votes to qualify for the face off event.

Leaderboard

The top 5 go forward to

NAM

Enemy Commanders: Britain’s Greatest Foes is a celebrity speaker event taking place at the National Army Museum on Saturday 14 April 2012, from 10.30am to 5.30pm. The top five military leaders, as decided by our online poll, will be represented at this all-day event by five leading historians. The line-up of speakers will be announced nearer the time.

It also seems that someone tried to crack NAM software on Paddies Day that's why they introduced registration. I wonder what nationality?

NAM Statement

On Saturday 17 March the National Army Museum (NAM) noticed unusually high levels of activity on the Britain's Greatest Foes section of its website. This was responsible for making the NAM site inactive for some time over the course of the weekend and it was therefore necessary to suspend the interactive elements (i.e. the voting).

After initial investigation it became clear that the voting system had been compromised by a small number of users looking to automatically activate votes on some of the nominees. It was felt that this was not in the spirit of the competition and to the best of our ability we have isolated the legitimate votes from the auto generated ones and amended the results accordingly.

Because of this activity it has become necessary for all users wishing to cast a vote to do so by first registering their name and email address.

jonniebgood1

Their poll makes me think in copycat fashion of a thread/poll here for Ireland greatest enemies. Candidates?

It also makes me think that we dont have as many enemies as Britain!

MarchDub

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Their poll makes me think in copycat fashion of a thread/poll here for Ireland greatest enemies. Candidates?

It also makes me think that we dont have as many enemies as Britain!

There are sound historical reasons for that!

Judgement Day

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Their poll makes me think in copycat fashion of a thread/poll here for Ireland greatest enemies. Candidates?

It also makes me think that we dont have as many enemies as Britain!

Historically - Oliver Cromwell, General Sir Hugh Tudor (last C in C of the RIC) and in charge of the 'Black and Tans'.

Today - Chinese President in waiting Xi Jinping, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and, of course, President Putin in his 'new' USSR.

Thread might be better in Ranting + Raving - or maybe it will be okay if I keep out if it.

Fratton Fred

MarchDub wrote: »

Thanks - Not surprised. You know the Brits have a long history of either not liking the way we vote or just denying us the right altogether.

I think todays publication of the Mahon report would suggest the Brits may have a point!

MarchDub

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I think todays publication of the Mahon report would suggest the Brits may have a point!

Oh yes, Fred and we all know how open and honest the Brits have always been in their election dealings both within Britain and with others - wonder what all that 'election reform' in Britain was about then? Or - just picking randomly - how about Churchill's and Sir Percy Cox's meddling in Middle East elections so as to get the 'right' result?

dubhthach

Judgement Day wrote: »

Historically - Oliver Cromwell, General Sir Hugh Tudor (last C in C of the RIC) and in charge of the 'Black and Tans'.

I'd put Lord Mountjoy and General Lake in front of Tudor personally.

CDfm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I think todays publication of the Mahon report would suggest the Brits may have a point!

Tut tut.

Michael Collins made sure that women had equal voting rights to men from independence in 1922 , British women under 30 had to wait until 1928.

Anyone who doesn't vote for Collins is anti-womens rights.

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

Tut tut.

Michael Collins made sure that women had equal voting rights to men from independence in 1922 , British women under 30 had to wait until 1928.

Anyone who doesn't vote for Collins is anti-womens rights.

Women in Turkey under Ataturk only got voting rights in 1930 http://www.ipu.org/wmn-e/suffrage.htm .

Collins 1- Ataturk 0.

Manach

Re: our own enemies, let us not merely confine ourselves to the English - technically their could be Anglo-Norman contenders as well as Viking kings.

CDfm

Manach wrote: »

Re: our own enemies, let us not merely confine ourselves to the English - technically their could be Anglo-Norman contenders as well as Viking kings.

Where would those Irish who took advantage of surrender and regrant fit ?

http://www.kavanaghfamily.com/articles/2002/20021101jfc.htm

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

Where would those Irish who took advantage of surrender and regrant fit ?

http://www.kavanaghfamily.com/articles/2002/20021101jfc.htm

Well, we should try to at least make a difference between those who tried to keep a crust in their mouths under difficult or impossible conditions - and those who betrayed battle plans and were downright informers. God knows we had enough of the latter...

dubhthach

Indeed, of course there were plenty who took part in Surrender and Regrant (either directly or their fathers) who subsequently lost it all. Prime example of course been Aodh Ó Néill Earl of Tyrone, it been his "grandfather" Conn Bacach Ó Néill (Bacach = lame/cripple) who did the surrender/regrant -- I use inverted comments as Aodh father Feardorcha ("Dark Man" -- known as Matthew in english) status as a son of Conn is somewhat contested. Most claim he was really an O'Kelly.

clappyhappy

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

Yes. The Sunday Times last weekend mentioned they had put in software to prevent multiple voting on the same candidate especially as the Irish has prior history with internet polls. A practically unknown former Bray player was voted best soccer player in the world.

Not to forget that "A Nation Once Again" was voted the best song ever on a BBC website about 10 years ago :pac::pac:

CDfm

clappyhappy wrote: »

Not to forget that "A Nation Once Again" was voted the best song ever on a BBC website about 10 years ago :pac::pac:

It's all too easy to stereotype the British and they usually give us good votes in the eurovision.

Maybe they dont like " Irelands Call " either.

Fratton Fred

MarchDub wrote: »

Oh yes, Fred and we all know how open and honest the Brits have always been in their election dealings both within Britain and with others - wonder what all that 'election reform' in Britain was about then? Or - just picking randomly - how about Churchill's and Sir Percy Cox's meddling in Middle East elections so as to get the 'right' result?

sense of humour March, sense of humour.

clappyhappy

CDfm wrote: »

It's all too easy to stereotype the British and they usually give us good votes in the eurovision.

Maybe they dont like " Irelands Call " either.

Most Irish don't like it either

CDfm

clappyhappy wrote: »

Most Irish don't like it either

Well the votes are in so its time for you to contact the IRFU on the new song - the British don't object

MarchDub

Fratton Fred wrote: »

sense of humour March, sense of humour.

Same to you Fred....same to you.

Cardinal Richelieu

clappyhappy wrote: »

Most Irish don't like it either

Phil Coulter worst work.

who the fug

clappyhappy wrote: »

Not to forget that "A Nation Once Again" was voted the best song ever on a BBC website about 10 years ago :pac::pac:

Yes but the internet was a new and shiny thing then

dubhthach

who the fug wrote: »

Yes but the internet was a new and shiny thing then

As an aside Ireland has been connected to the Internet since 1987

Sunnyisland

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=micheal%20collins%20vote&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCEQqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnewspaper%2Fireland%2F2012%2F0416%2F1224314763603.html&ei=wMeNT6qBIMuzhAfh4eDtCg&usg=AFQjCNEw1vWZ1fcriMcXPB4S9mb3gm6AtQ


I hope this is the forum for this thread.

THE FIRST president of the United States, George Washington, has been voted Britain’s greatest enemy commander by historians and academics, overcoming the challenge of Ireland’s revolutionary leader Michael Collins.
Washington secured 30 votes against 14 for Collins at the National Army Museum in London over the weekend.
Third was Napoleon Bonaparte, with 12 votes, followed by Erwin Rommel with seven and Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (four).
The final vote concluded a hard-fought contest launched by the museum in February, which asked the public to vote online for their top foe. From its launch on February 13th to its close on March 31st, the online voting site attracted almost 8,000 votes and more than 300,000 web hits.
The top five commanders, as determined by the online poll, then went forward to be represented at the all-day speaker event on Saturday, where guests voted for Washington as the ultimate foe.
Dr Stephen Brumwell, a specialist in 18th century North American history, said Washington scores highly as an enemy of Britain on key grounds. “The immense scale of damage he inflicts upon Britain’s army and empire – the most jarring defeat that either endured; his ability to not only provide inspirational battlefield leadership but to work with civilians who were crucial to sustain the war effort. As British officers conceded, he was a worthy opponent.”
Gabriel Doherty, history lecturer at University College Cork, had stated the case for Collins, insisting he was more than just a great military leader. “He had many different hats, and his political and administrative skills tend to be a lot more overlooked.”
The poll was created to highlight the achievements of Britain’s most celebrated enemies and to draw attention to some of the country’s lesser-known adversaries.
In assembling the shortlist, the main criterion was that each commander had to have led an army against British forces in the field of battle (which saw the exclusion of political enemies such as Adolf Hitler) and they had to fall within the museum’s remit (from the 17th century onwards).
The museum explores the impact of the British army on the story of Britain, Europe and the world, how Britain’s past has helped shape its present and and how the actions of a few can affect the futures of many.
The museum was established by royal charter to tell the story of the land forces of the crown wherever they were raised. Opened by the queen in 1960, it moved to its current site in Chelsea in 1971.
Crown's fiercest military foes

1st: George Washington
2nd: Michael Collins
3rd: Napoleon Bonaparte

4th: Erwin Rommel

5th: Mustafa Kemal Ataturk


I was under the impression that the war Micheal collins fought against the british was a guerrilla type war ? What are the posters opinions of this vote, I must say it surprised me with M collins being voted ahead of Napoleon & Rommel.

jonniebgood1

realies wrote: »

...
In assembling the shortlist, the main criterion was that each commander had to have led an army against British forces in the field of battle (which saw the exclusion of political enemies such as Adolf Hitler) and they had to fall within the museum’s remit (from the 17th century onwards).
.....


I was under the impression that the war Micheal collins fought against the british was a guerrilla type war ? What are the posters opinions of this vote, I must say it surprised me with M collins being voted ahead of Napoleon & Rommel.

I presume its the same as discussed here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056583005

Do you feel that Collins did not fit the criteria?

I would have thought that the manner in which Collins developed a type of warfare that would work in Ireland makes him an excellent candidate for this type of discussion. Of course measuring these commanders from different wars and all the variations in context that that entails is impossible and completely subjective to the person making the judgement.

Sunnyisland

Sorry did not see that thread and I did look Without reading that thread yet, I didn't think he would have fit that criteria, Going to read it now,You can close this thread as it seems it already has/is been discussed, Thanks.

Or better still move this to that thread :-)

jonniebgood1

realies wrote: »

...
I didn't think he would have fit that criteria, Going to read it now,You can close this thread as it seems it already has/is been discussed, Thanks.

No problem- its a fair addition to the thread if you wish to make the point. I don't really agree that he does'nt fit their criteria but as I said already this type of poll is subjective.

Sunnyisland

Well my opinion being,
As rommel and napoleon fought massive land wars against there enemies,moving vast armies across N africa and europe, Collins war was more of a using Flying columns and I just never put him up there with other leading figures, My bad and I shall give him more respect the next time he comes into conversations.

CDfm

realies wrote: »

Well my opinion being,
As rommel and napoleon fought massive land wars against there enemies,moving vast armies across N africa and europe, Collins war was more of a using Flying columns and I just never put him up there with other leading figures, My bad and I shall give him more respect the next time he comes into conversations.

And they lost.

Nuff said.

Sunnyisland

CDfm wrote: »

And they lost.

Nuff said.

That wasn't the question, It was britain's fiercest foes and for whats its worth I dont think MC won either,but I suppose that would be for another thread.