Saorview Availability

Pj!

I currently have my tv aerial neatly tucked away in the attic and pick up analogue RTE1, RTE2, TV3 AND TNAG. TV3 is not brilliant but watchable. Have always been happy enough with the set up.
I have tried tuning in Saorview on a Saorview approved tv to no avail.

I have looked at the coverage map on the Saorview website and while I am covered, I am quite close to a red area which it says will become available in October.

As far as I know receiving Saorview in the area at the moment requires some elevation of the aerial above the chimney (if other houses are anything to go by).



What I want to know is

1. Why are these red areas not available until October? Are they putting in new masts or do they have to wait until analogue switch off to change current masts to digital?

2. Is it likely that come October there will be much better reception in my area which would allow me to pick up Saorview from the attic?



I would prefer not to move the aerial outside and would wait until October if it was possible I would not have to.


Thanks!

wil

Probably help to know what part of the country though the coverage indicator isn't that reliable.
Can be difficult to tell which direction or frequency to search, had same problem at my parents, Saorview map told me one thing, laptop with usb dongle told me differently. Once I knew correct frequency for best signal, it was just a case or changing direction of existing UHF aerial and perfect Saorview reception on main TV.

The Cush

Pj! wrote: »

What I want to know is

1. Why are these red areas not available until October? Are they putting in new masts or do they have to wait until analogue switch off to change current masts to digital?

2. Is it likely that come October there will be much better reception in my area which would allow me to pick up Saorview from the attic?

1. All 51 digital transmitters are switched on for digital but some in the border area are we believe restricted in power until Oct 24th to prevent interference to existing analogue transmissions in NI. Also at Mt Leinster the existing mast is being replaced with a higher one, not sure if that is operational yet.

2. That will depend on:
- your location
- which transmitter or transmitters you currently receive analogue TV from
- your aerial type/group
- your aerial location


Not all analogue transmitters are being upgraded for Saorview DTT, if you can list the frequencies for the analogue channels you currently receive it would help identify which transmitter(s) you're receiving from.

Pj!

Thanks guys.
I'm in the midlands and will be covered by the Kilduff transmitter (about 40km away).

I rang the Saorview helpline and she told me (after much consultation with her superior) that the Saorview signal will not be improving in any areas from here on in.


I must check that my current aerial is ok for Saorview.

Peter Rhea

You're not receiving from Kilduff atm as it doesn't transmit analogue.

The Cush

Pj! wrote: »

I must check that my current aerial is ok for Saorview.

Does your aerial look like any of these - http://www.tvtrade.ie/tv-and-radio-aerials/uhf-aerials.html

Kilduff requires a Group C/D (green) or wideband (black) UHF aerial. Sometimes there is a coloured plastic bung or colour tape wrapped around the aerial which will help identify the grouping of the existing aerial.

Pj!

It appears I have two aerials!

I've tried to get half decent pics of both.

First one (Biggest)

Second one
This one is the only one with any colour. Blue plastic parts which are just visable in the pic.


I presume the smaller one is for tv3 picture? Both seem to be pointing in the same direction.

The Cush

Pj! wrote: »

It appears I have two aerials!

I've tried to get half decent pics of both.

First one (Biggest)

Second one
This one is the only one with any colour. Blue plastic parts which are just visable in the pic.

VHF LP7 (first) and UHF aerials for either Mt Leinster, Kippure or Maghera analogue TV. Which direction are the aerials pointing?

The second aerial, UHF, may have a coloured plastic bung at the far end of the centre bar.

Pj!

Ah so it does.

The second aerial has a red bung at either end.
The first aerial has a black one at the end photo'd.


Both appear to be pointing towards Mt Leinster.

The Cush

Pj! wrote: »

The second aerial has a red bung at either end.

Both appear to be pointing towards Mt Leinster.

I'm between Mt Leinster and Kilduff, a bit closer to Kilduff.

Red Group A UHF aerial for Mt Leinster TV3/TG4 analogue.

Green Group C/D aerial required for Kilduff.

From Oct 24th next the red tip UHF aerial may be able to receive Saorview from Mt Leinster but at the moment a yellow Group B is required, Saorview frequency change at Mt Leinster on that date.

Pj!

Thanks The Cush. Very knowledgeable and speedy replies.

What are the chances that I'd pick up the Kilduff signal (40km distance) from an attic aerial?

The Cush

Pj! wrote: »

What are the chances that I'd pick up the Kilduff signal (40km distance) from an attic aerial?

Not sure not knowing the area.

The only way to find out is to test one in the attic, €15 - €20. If it works you could combine the two UHF aerials with a diplexer (http://www.tvtrade.ie/triax-uhf-diplexer-tfc-3537.html) if you wish to continue receiving the analogue signal for analogue only TVs/VCRs etc in the house until Oct 24th next.

Pj!

Thanks again The Cush. Very helpful. I had no idea different transmitters required different type aerials.

I'll read a bit more about it (doing a DIY job) but I might just get a professional on the job.

blackius

Pj! wrote: »

Thanks The Cush. Very knowledgeable and speedy replies.

What are the chances that I'd pick up the Kilduff signal (40km distance) from an attic aerial?

I'd say if you have mostly good analog from MT leinster now,that your group a will pull in stable saorview from there after October 24th.
A small group a would probably be under pressure trying to receive saorview mt leinster whilst it's on ch45 especially at the fringes of its coverage area.
That changes to the current group a analog uhf channels from Oct 24th.

Pj!

Not sure what to do now!

The Cush

Pj! wrote: »

Not sure what to do now!

If you want Saorview now install an aerial for Kilduff.

If you can wait until 24th Oct for the frequency change at Mt Leinster, the red tip may receive Saorview without having to do anything now.

Another possible option might be to replace the existing red tip aerial for a black tip wideband aerial which covers the full range for present UHF analogue and maybe present and future Saorview from Mt Leinster. That will of course depend on how good Saorview signal strength is in your attic from there.

Ronnie Raygun

A wideband UHF aerial would suit both Kilduff & the current Mt. Leinster frequencies. (See I was beaten to this point.) Since you have an attic installation, I reckon you'll be tempted to tinker with it ...

Kilduff is putting out plenty of power but your reception of any transmitter will be dependent on the terrain & local clutter between you & it.

Pj!

Thanks guys. Hell of a forum this for help and information.
I might try the wideband UHF aerial so.


Just a couple of questions (thinking out loud).

Q1. If people have been upgraded to Saorview via Mt. Leinster, is it possible that they will lose Saorview come October if the wrong aerial was used?
Q2. Are certain aerials better than others? ie. will a wideband UHF aerial pick up reception equally to a Group C/D aerial for Kilduff?

edit: and Q.3. Would this aerial be my best bet for the attic?

Peter Rhea

A grid aerial isn't 'high gain' despite the claims on that site.

Plenty of info about aerials including attic installs here. More about attics here.

Pj!

Will have a closer look at those tomorrow thanks Peter. They look great. Both exactly what I needed. That second one will be very useful.

Any recommendations for a wideband UHF aerial to try in my attic?

The Cush

Pj! wrote: »

Just a couple of questions (thinking out loud).

Q1. If people have been upgraded to Saorview via Mt. Leinster, is it possible that they will lose Saorview come October if the wrong aerial was used?
Q2. Are certain aerials better than others? ie. will a wideband UHF aerial pick up reception equally to a Group C/D aerial for Kilduff?

edit: and Q.3. Would this aerial be my best bet for the attic?

1. I guess its possible, it will depend on how well the aerial performs outside its range and how good the Saorview signal is.

2. A wideband aerial is a compromise for full range use, a grouped aerial will performs better in a smaller range. These graphs will explain it better - http://www.aerialsandtv.com/aerials.html#AerialGainCurves, http://www.aerialsandtv.com/gaincurves.html#ContractGainCurves.

Looking at the graphs a group B aerial might be better than a wideband for Mt Leinster reception present and future. The wideband grid might be a good idea for the attic if the Saorview signal is good enough.

Pj!

Got myself a wideband and replaced the red tip.

Currently have Saorview from Kilduff but with just 26% signal, 100% quality (according to tv). I'm guessing this will give problems when the weather is not so good?

I tried to connect to Mt Leinster but despite picking up quite good tv3 and tg4, I couldn't find a digital signal.

The Cush

Pj! wrote: »

Currently have Saorview from Kilduff but with just 26% signal, 100% quality (according to tv). I'm guessing this will give problems when the weather is not so good?

I tried to connect to Mt Leinster but despite picking up quite good tv3 and tg4, I couldn't find a digital signal.

26% is a bit low, have you realigned the aerial towards Kilduff.

Peter Rhea

Pj! wrote: »

Got myself a wideband and replaced the red tip.

Currently have Saorview from Kilduff but with just 26% signal, 100% quality (according to tv).

What kind of wideband aerial did you go for?

Is the new aerial connected to the same cable as the old one (& presumably combined with the VHF feed). How many tvs are served by this setup & how is the signal distributed?

Pj!

Yes the wideband is directed towards Kilduff. Still have to try some readjusting when I get a bit of help (there's only so much getting up and down into the attic I can do!).

This is the new wideband and is combined with the VHF where the red tip used to.


The current system (to the best of my knowledge) is that the combined uhf/vhf feed is fed straight to the living room along with the satellite feed.
These feeds are combined here and are fed back to the attic where they are distributed to the bedrooms/kitchen via 4 way amp. The TV I am getting the Saorview on now is one of the bedroom ones.
I may well be wrong but that is how I have figured it out anyway. I will soon be looking to get more feeds from the satellite dish and feed each room (with satellite and terrestrial) direct from the attic (with a freesat receiver in each).


Hope that all makes sense.

Peter Rhea

For alignment purposes, I would connect the aerial directly to the tv via a single length of cable. Even better if you can get a tv within view in the attic, but a bit problematic if it's a big one.

The low signal level could just be a symptom of being fed through the system, rather than an alignment issue. Signal quality is more important.

You can hook the aerial up to the distribution system later.

Ronnie Raygun

Pj! wrote: »

the combined uhf/vhf feed is fed straight to the living room along with the satellite feed.
These feeds are combined here and are fed back to the attic where they are distributed to the bedrooms/kitchen via 4 way amp. The TV I am getting the Saorview on now is one of the bedroom ones.

Pj! wrote: »

I tried to connect to Mt Leinster but despite picking up quite good tv3 and tg4, I couldn't find a digital signal.

So there's a satellite (Sky?) RF out combined with the aerial signal? What UHF channel does it use?

Maybe it's interfering with Mt. Leinster Saorview.

Pj!

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

So there's a satellite (Sky?) RF out combined with the aerial signal? What UHF channel does it use?

Have an RF modulator in the living room and its currently on channel 47. Would this interfere with Mt Leinster Saorview?

Pj!

Peter Rhea wrote: »

For alignment purposes, I would connect the aerial directly to the tv via a single length of cable. Even better if you can get a tv within view in the attic, but a bit problematic if it's a big one.

The low signal level could just be a symptom of being fed through the system, rather than an alignment issue. Signal quality is more important.

You can hook the aerial up to the distribution system later.

Thanks Peter, that makes sense. Will try that tomorrow.

Ronnie Raygun

Pj! wrote: »

Have an RF modulator in the living room and its currently on channel 47. Would this interfere with Mt Leinster Saorview?

One way to find out, move it further away from ch. 45.

excollier

Take a read of this for RF channel allocation. It's for British tv but the principles still apply.

http://www.indigoelectronics.co.uk/applications/taboo/scripts/selectregion.asp

Ronnie Raygun

OP, I think that "taboo channel" stuff can be ignored now, as far as modern equipment is concerned anyway.

Only item of concern would be your modulator & how much "pollution" it produces.

Pj!

Thanks again guys. All very much appreciated.

Saorview is working fine in the bedroom. Just 24% signal, with 100% signal quality. I haven't seen the quality dip below 100% yet.

Hopefully the 24% is due to being fed through the system, as Peter Rhea mentioned. It does have a bit of travelling around the house: The signal leaves the wideband in the attic, joins a VHF feed, travels down to the living room, goes through a modulator with the satellite feed and travels back up to the attic, into a 4 way and back down to bedrooms, where I am getting the 24%.

Unless there is a problem, I probably won't tinker with it again until I get a multi LNB for the satellite and feed each room independently with satellite and terrestrial. Then I will get a tv closer to (or in) the attic and work with the reading from there and try to improve it as best I can.

Will let ye know how I go.

geriatrix

I'm in N Antrim and to get analogue RTE1&2 and TG4 from Moville I have a Group B 18 element aerial but I also need a masthead amplifier and 12v DC masthead power supply.
RTE1 is very good - as good as my analogue BBC an UTV reception from Limavady. TG4 is slightly less good. RTE 2 is OK but often has diamond patterned interference which seems to be weather dependent.

A few months ago I borrowed a UK Freeview HD set top box to see if I could get Saorview but it wasn't successful.
Before I buy a Saorview or Freeview HD box or both or a new TV I have 2 questions for anyone who can help.
Will I receive Saorview from October 2012?
Will I still need the masthead amplifier and power supply?

The Cush

geriatrix wrote: »

Before I buy a Saorview or Freeview HD box or both or a new TV I have 2 questions for anyone who can help.
Will I receive Saorview from October 2012?
Will I still need the masthead amplifier and power supply?

Have a look at the Saorview coverage map - http://www.saorview.ie/make-the-switch/coverage-checker/coverage-map/

If you're in the red area you will have coverage in Oct. We were told by a Saorview rep here some time ago that transmitters along the border are restricted until Oct. If you're within the white areas reception may depend on terrain, obstacles, hi-gain aerial, aerial position etc.

Difficult to know yet if you'll need a masthead amp then, it'll depend on what the DTT signal is like after ASO.

This is the Moville coverage map from ukfreetv - http://www.ukfree.tv/shutdowndetail.php?tx=NQ810033, not sure how accurate it is.

Maybe you'll be within the coverage area of the RTÉ/TG4 mini-mux, see the first image here - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77543421&postcount=342

geriatrix

The Cush wrote: »

Have a look at the Saorview coverage map - http://www.saorview.ie/make-the-switch/coverage-checker/coverage-map/

If you're in the red area you will have coverage in Oct. We were told by a Saorview rep here some time ago that transmitters along the border are restricted until Oct. If you're within the white areas reception may depend on terrain, obstacles, hi-gain aerial, aerial position etc.

Difficult to know yet if you'll need a masthead amp then, it'll depend on what the DTT signal is like after ASO.

This is the Moville coverage map from ukfreetv - http://www.ukfree.tv/shutdowndetail.php?tx=NQ810033, not sure how accurate it is.

Maybe you'll be within the coverage area of the RTÉ/TG4 mini-mux, see the first image here - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77543421&postcount=342

Thanks a lot for all the information and the links. On all the coverage maps it looks good for after ASO.

lawhec

If you're within the vicinity of either the Ballintoy or Ballycastle Forest relay transmitters, co-channel interference might cause a problem receiving DTT from Moville at present - Ballintoy will be shifting frequencies post DSO, but Ballycastle will use the same.

What's interesting up there is that on the northern first stage on 10/10/12 Limavady will be shutting down BBC1 analogue and the current Mux1 on E67 with the new BBCA multiplex powering up on E50 - the same channel that Moville currently uses for TG4, which means potentially for two weeks that's gonna be a world of hurt! I suspect TG4 may be closed down early at Moville to prevent this. ARQ2 from Limavady will also be on E49, ruling this out at Moville also.

geriatrix

lawhec wrote: »

If you're within the vicinity of either the Ballintoy or Ballycastle Forest relay transmitters, co-channel interference might cause a problem receiving DTT from Moville at present - Ballintoy will be shifting frequencies post DSO, but Ballycastle will use the same.

What's interesting up there is that on the northern first stage on 10/10/12 Limavady will be shutting down BBC1 analogue and the current Mux1 on E67 with the new BBCA multiplex powering up on E50 - the same channel that Moville currently uses for TG4, which means potentially for two weeks that's gonna be a world of hurt! I suspect TG4 may be closed down early at Moville to prevent this. ARQ2 from Limavady will also be on E49, ruling this out at Moville also.

Thanks for the information. I'm 2 miles south of Ballymoney, Co Antrim so I don't think the Ballintoy and Ballycastle Forest relays are an issue.
Does your information mean TG4 won't be available to me at all after ASO or will it become available again from 24 October?
That wouldn't deliver the two governments' stated intention "to make TG4 available on Freeview to much of Northern Ireland, and to facilitate the provision of RTÉ One and RTÉ Two".
Or will it become available again from 24 October?

The Cush

lawhec wrote: »

What's interesting up there is that on the northern first stage on 10/10/12 Limavady will be shutting down BBC1 analogue and the current Mux1 on E67 with the new BBCA multiplex powering up on E50 - the same channel that Moville currently uses for TG4, which means potentially for two weeks that's gonna be a world of hurt! I suspect TG4 may be closed down early at Moville to prevent this. ARQ2 from Limavady will also be on E49, ruling this out at Moville also.

Maybe they'll continue to use Ch 67 until stage 2 on Oct 24th, don't think it going to be used elsewhere, that way TG4 continues to be available on Ch 50 until ASO. ARQ2 doesn't move to Ch 49 until stage 2 and so won't be affected by analogue TG4 before ASO/DSO.

Can't see them switching off analogue TG4 earlier and depriving viewers who haven't upgraded to Saorview, at that time, of the channel.

geriatrix wrote: »

Does your information mean TG4 won't be available to me at all after ASO or will it become available again from 24 October?
That wouldn't deliver the two governments' stated intention "to make TG4 available on Freeview to much of Northern Ireland, and to facilitate the provision of RTÉ One and RTÉ Two".
Or will it become available again from 24 October?

If you can receive Saorview or the NI mini-mux from Oct 24th you'll get TG4.

lawhec

The Cush wrote: »

Maybe they'll continue to use Ch 67 until stage 2 on Oct 24th, don't think it going to be used elsewhere, that way TG4 continues to be available on Ch 50 until ASO. ARQ2 doesn't move to Ch 49 until stage 2 and so won't be affected by analogue TG4 before ASO/DSO.

Can't see them switching off analogue TG4 earlier and depriving viewers who haven't upgraded to Saorview, at that time, of the channel.

I'm just surprised that it hasn't been flagged up yet as it's an obvious clash. The Whitehead relay, for example is on 10/10 having BBCA powered up on E56, but on 24/10, it is changing to E52 and the BBCB (DVB-T2) Multiplex will be fired up on E56, so Arqiva engineers and frequency planners aren't simply forgetting all of this. Ofcom seem reluctant to use channels above E60 even for temp purposes (though there is one example in England) not to mention some relays having to be reconfigured for RBL links from BBCA. One possible solution I suppose is on 10/10 to shut off on analogue BBC1 & BBC2 (E55 & E62), switch BBC1 back on E62 where BBC2 used to be, power up BBCA on E55 as the same frequency is being used two weeks later for BBCB. On 24/10, move BBCA on to E50 with TG4 analogue on the same frequency shut down - though first-chain relays receiving via RBL will have to have their transposer retuned as well. My interest on ARQ2 is that RTÉNL seem to have settled on the E39/42/45/49 frequency grouping for DTT from Moville, but with Limavady planned to use E49 it looks like it's being given up on Moville if any significant expansion of DTT services takes places, which looks highly unlikely in the short to mid term.

lawhec

geriatrix wrote: »

Thanks for the information. I'm 2 miles south of Ballymoney, Co Antrim so I don't think the Ballintoy and Ballycastle Forest relays are an issue.
Does your information mean TG4 won't be available to me at all after ASO or will it become available again from 24 October?
That wouldn't deliver the two governments' stated intention "to make TG4 available on Freeview to much of Northern Ireland, and to facilitate the provision of RTÉ One and RTÉ Two".
Or will it become available again from 24 October?

Depending on whatever is sorted out, TG4 will be available if you can get Saorview.

The Cush

lawhec wrote: »

I'm just surprised that it hasn't been flagged up yet as it's an obvious clash. ...

I read somewhere recently that coordination for muxes 3-6 and 7-8 hasn't been finalised yet, the only official information in the public domain is Mux 1&2 Moville (45 & 42).

Maybe after the big London switchover, which is taking up much of DigitalUK's attention at the moment, we may see updated info regarding the NI switchover.

geriatrix

My thanks to The Cush and Lawhec for all the information. It's now a case of waiting to see if I get Saorview in October but I'm optimistic after reading your messages.
I see London is 4 &18 April and then Tyne Tees 12 & 26 September and finally NI which is, as you say, complicated by the choreography with Saorview in border areas.
I hope someone on both sides gets to grip with the problems you've spelled out before 10/10 and 24/10.