Sore knee during/after jogging

Slydice

Sorry for the long post.

A couple of years ago, I started jogging on threadmills in my local gym. I'd try to do 30 minutes and raise the speed as I got more into it. Towards the end, I woulda been up around 13/14km. As well as that though, I'd sometimes find my left knee would start giving me pain so much that I'd have to pretty much stop when the pain kicked off. Then I stopped going to the gym and jogging on the threadmills so it's been off my mind.

In the last year, I've been cycling to work, in about 10k and back about 10k around four to five times a week. Sometimes, if I get the chance, I'll try a run. Either into work instead of cycling or maybe just down a road to get a bit of exercise.

When I run/jog though, the left knee pain tends to come back. If I sense it coming, I can stop and avoid getting it during the run. Unfortunately though, if I do a run but avoid it, I might still get the pain from just walking up and down steps/stairs.

I was wondering if this is a common thing and if there's a simple remedy
or
Do you think I should have a doctor/specialist check it out? Any type of doctor/specialist in particular?

donothoponpop

Slydice wrote: »

Sorry for the long post.

A couple of years ago, I started jogging on threadmills in my local gym. I'd try to do 30 minutes and raise the speed as I got more into it. Towards the end, I woulda been up around 13/14km. As well as that though, I'd sometimes find my left knee would start giving me pain so much that I'd have to pretty much stop when the pain kicked off. Then I stopped going to the gym and jogging on the threadmills so it's been off my mind.

In the last year, I've been cycling to work, in about 10k and back about 10k around four to five times a week. Sometimes, if I get the chance, I'll try a run. Either into work instead of cycling or maybe just down a road to get a bit of exercise.

When I run/jog though, the left knee pain tends to come back. If I sense it coming, I can stop and avoid getting it during the run. Unfortunately though, if I do a run but avoid it, I might still get the pain from just walking up and down steps/stairs.

I was wondering if this is a common thing and if there's a simple remedy
or
Do you think I should have a doctor/specialist check it out? Any type of doctor/specialist in particular?

Knee pain for runners is a common complaint. Simple remedies that have worked for me:

1) Lose weight,
2) Don't run on concrete/tarmac
3) Two teaspoons of apple cider vinegar daily (google it).

dahat

donothoponpop wrote: »

Knee pain for runners is a common complaint. Simple remedies that have worked for me:

1) Lose weight,
2) Don't run on concrete/tarmac
3) Two teaspoons of apple cider vinegar daily (google it).

Also add in Glucosamine Sulphate,great for joints and i have found it amazing tbh.
Go see a doc/physio too though to be sure....

RayCun

donothoponpop wrote: »

Knee pain for runners is a common complaint.

One other thing to remember. The reason why so many new runners get knee and shin pain is that they have gone from no running to running 3/4 times a week, often for 30 minutes or more each time. Their muscles just aren't used to the stress, and they complain.
Build up slowly. Try a programme like couch to 5k, which blends running and walking to start off with, and don't try to do too much.

myflipflops

RayCun wrote: »

One other thing to remember. The reason why so many new runners get knee and shin pain is that they have gone from no running to running 3/4 times a week, often for 30 minutes or more each time. Their muscles just aren't used to the stress, and they complain.
Build up slowly. Try a programme like couch to 5k, which blends running and walking to start off with, and don't try to do too much.

This happens to me.

I avoid it by replacing a couple of runs with either the bike or usually, the cross trainer/eliptical in the gym both of which are non impact. Gradually increase the running mileage as the weight drops off.

Slydice

ok, I did 10k today.

first I went up the cabra road and the knee was fine

down into the phoenix park and the knee was fine

so, when I got into the park, I said I'd give the grass a try. not very long into my running on the grass (between 20 to 80 meters), the knee started hurting.

so, for both legs, I did these stretches:
calf stretch (15 seconds): http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-R6SwIJO2u9Y/TdxYkNpGesI/AAAAAAAAAP4/8NDjXeehNYc/s320/Calf+Stretch.jpg
thigh stretch (15 seconds): http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/images/ency/fullsize/19487.jpg

I did a slow jog around to the front of the aras and then the pain came back so I decided to stretch again. I did:
calf stretch (15 seconds): http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-R6SwIJO2u9Y/TdxYkNpGesI/AAAAAAAAAP4/8NDjXeehNYc/s320/Calf+Stretch.jpg
thigh stretch (15 seconds): http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/images/ency/fullsize/19487.jpg
Squatting Leg-out Adductor Stretch (15 seconds): http://www.thestretchinghandbook.com/archives/ezine_images/kickboxing-stretch_3.jpg

Then, for some crazy reason, I sprinted down through the park maybe 50 meters before resuming jogging. The pain slackened and became unnoticable then and I could comfortably continue jogging.

It remained more as a feeling or reminder or its existance for the rest of the jog but didn't cause a level of discomfort enough to stop me being able to jog.

Does that sound ok? Is it just something I need to get over?


(also, DAMN, THAT BE HOT OUT THERE! ... but damn great day all the same)

McWotever

Where is the pain in relation to the patella (kneecap)?
Are you overweight?
Have you got your running gait checked?

Slydice

So, as I sit here, looking down at my left knee. It's behind the kneecap and on the left of it. A quick test there had the pain happening as I lifted the leg rather than when it landed.

I am overweight I think. I got an android app and it reckons my BMI is 26.12 where normal is 20-25. I'm 12.5 stone so I reckon I've got to get down to 11.5 to be comfortably in the normal zone

I never got my gait checked. First I've heard of it. The most I did was a few years ago in a gym where an instructor showed me the calf and thigh stretches and told me 30 seconds is good as it's a developmental stretch. I think 15 seconds is like a maintenance one. It was a good while back. The details are hazy.

Deego01

Sounds gait/biomechanics related to me. You're in dublin so get to AK for gait analysis. If the pain continues they should have the name of a physio they know locally to assess you.

McWotever

Slydice wrote: »

So, as I sit here, looking down at my left knee. It's behind the kneecap and on the left of it. A quick test there had the pain happening as I lifted the leg rather than when it landed.

I am overweight I think. I got an android app and it reckons my BMI is 26.12 where normal is 20-25. I'm 12.5 stone so I reckon I've got to get down to 11.5 to be comfortably in the normal zone

I never got my gait checked. First I've heard of it. The most I did was a few years ago in a gym where an instructor showed me the calf and thigh stretches and told me 30 seconds is good as it's a developmental stretch. I think 15 seconds is like a maintenance one. It was a good while back. The details are hazy.

You're no more overweight than I am so, so I doubt its weight related. I am 12.5 stone too, and about 5'10".

I was thinking your pain could of been Pateller Tendonitis, but it sounds different to its normal manifestation. Maybe Google the above and see if it fits in with what you're experiencing. Be careful not to self diagnose though. Best see a professional.

I too think it could be gait related. Best to get it checked/assessed regardless if you plan on doing a bit of running. People will send/recommend many different places to get it done. I have got it done in Elvery's a couple of times and found them to be good. I also hear people recommend AK (Amphibian King).

Slydice

hmmm, it could be Pateller Tendonitis... hard to tell.

I'm leaning in the direction of contacting Amphibian King and seeing about the gait check and if it persists after that then maybe see about a doctor or physio.

Brianlohan

Sly dice
You should never take medical advice off of the internet. However just this once..
... You probably have patella femoral syndrome which is a mal tracking of the patella in the femoral groove. Go to see a podiatrist who is trained in gait analysis.

Lastly static stretching has been shown by recent research to not improve flexibility. Do dynamic b.efore and after and reciprocal inhibition stretching for tight muscles. You will get it all on you tube.

Slydice

Okie Doke. So I went out to Amphibian King on Thursday evening. From their website (here: http://www.amphibianking.ie/about.php), I think I was dealing with Csaba "Sean" Egly.

He really seemed to know what he was talking about and his customer service was great.

Anyway, we went through the gait analysis and here's what I took from it:
- barefoot, I apparently land (or maybe lean) harder when I land on my right foot
- there wasn't much to notice about my left foot landing
- the heat analysis showed I was something like mid arch (if I picked that up right). In that I'm not flat footed, I was in the mid range but closer to the flat footed side (but only a little bit I think)

Anyway, then I reckon he thought my left leg might be the smallest bit shorter than my right leg due to the ankle bit noticed in the gait analysis and also it only being my left knee that hurts.

He seemed to talk about rubbing the leg (even with a tennis ball) and plenty of different types of stretches as something to try to help if I get the pain. He also mentioned possibly seeing an osteopath if the pain keeps up. Well I think it was an osteopath... someone who might look at massaging the area like a physio (that sound right?)?

Anyway, I've got a new pair of New Balance 1080BW. My old shoes were NB 1060 which were a gift from my parents. He reckoned they were pretty good. I hadn't a clue .

So, I plan to try out the new shoes and see how I get on. I'll try sticking to even surfaces to try and avoid my left leg being even further from the ground that my right leg. If the pain comes back, a little trick yer man said I could do is to add the sole of the 1060 under the 1080 sole so I might try that.

Failing all that, I might try a professional (osteopath/physio/doctor? not sure about podiatrist as that seems to be lower down the leg than the knee).

Top marks for AK so far though. Will have to see after my next run though.

JohnnyCrash

One other quick question.Do you run on the same side of the road all the time? I find that changing sides(where its safe to do so) throughout runs helps balance things up,what with cambers and all that.Or on some of the very quiet back roads I use,ill run in the middle for a time.

Slydice

JohnnyCrash wrote: »

One other quick question.Do you run on the same side of the road all the time? I find that changing sides(where its safe to do so) throughout runs helps balance things up,what with cambers and all that.Or on some of the very quiet back roads I use,ill run in the middle for a time.

I'd find I'd be changing sides as the road goes along. My aim would be to get to a side if I know that there is a turn coming up. I'll attempt to get across before having to stop at a crossing or the like. I don't really focus on staying on one side or the other but I do tend to be on a side (usually the footpath) as the roads are fairly busy.

prettygurrly

your pain sounds very like mine. very periodical during running. do you have any history of arthritis in your family? both my parents need to get their knees replaced, mum's 59 and dad's 76. thinking i need an xray to see if there's been any degradation in the cartilage in my right knee.

i also had my gait checked by elverys and i'm a neutral and happened to have the correct shoes so it's not that. i would be a little overweight as well for a girl but i know i was this weight years ago but didn't have such problems. i also used to play cricket but my left knee took the battering during batting so dont think it's wear and tear from that either...

Dilbert75

I've been struggling with patellar tendonitis for the last 6 weeks or so. Went to physio, had deep massage & dry needling, got a load of stretches to do, got exercises to do to strengthen my inner quads (to pull my patella upwards before my outer quads get to pull it sideways). Also went to doctor and got prescribed anti-inflammatories.

From all the reading I've done on the subject, it seems that a combination of those weak inner quads, weak muscles around my pelvis, tight hamstrings, inflexible ITB and excessively quick ramp up of mileage has led to my problem. I've restarted running, mixed with walking, and (touch wood) it seems to be working. I also bought a foam roller in Argos (E25) and have been using that to roll out tight spots along the outside of my legs and along my calves. Seems to work well too.

Would recommend going to a good physio before a doctor - generally they seem to have much better handle on sports-related injuries and ways to rehabilitate them. Only thing they can't do is prescribe.

MrCreosote

This thread is a good example of why medical threads should be locked. You've a load of people giving their own personal experience of their own knee problems which might or might not have anything in common with the OPs.

Go see a decent physio, get it diagnosed properly and then come back for advice if you still need it.

prettygurrly

MrCreosote wrote: »

Go see a decent physio, get it diagnosed properly and then come back for advice if you still need it.

you either advocate people getting advice or you dont. Bit hypocritical there.
Everyone has been very careful to say that OP should go see a doc. How is this any different to having a chat down the pub about your sore knee and your mates putting their two cents in. You're hardly going go to well X said it's nothing to worry about so I'm not going to bother persuing it. Take your problem to a mod.

MrCreosote

Because looking for advice when you know what problem you have is completely different to looking for advice when you don't. Because what you say down the pub is not up on the internet for the whole world to see.

So far the OP has been told he has arthritis, patellar tendonitis, patello femoral syndrome and a gait problem. He's been told to see a doctor, a physio, a gait specialist, a podiatrist and an osteopath. He's been told to run on grass, run barefoot, that he's overweight, that he's not overweight, that he should take apple cider vinegar and glucosamine, that he should stretch and not to stretch.....and yet nobody knows what the exact problem actually is.

Get the problem properly diagnosed by a decent physio first. Otherwise you're just guessing.

prettygurrly

if someone knows what their problem is then why would they need to come back to the internet? the health system as plenty of physios that will give better advice on how to treat a known ailment.

i never said he has arthritis i just mentioned that it could be something to do with that. when did i say...here OP you have arthritis! dont put words in my post that are blatantly not there.

MrCreosote

prettygurrly wrote: »

if someone knows what their problem is then why would they need to come back to the internet? the health system as plenty of physios that will give better advice on how to treat a known ailment.

Indeed

Slydice

Thanks for the concern MrCreosote. I really am not looking for medical advice but I totally get where you are coming from. Normally, I'd be thinking that a doctor visit is priority number 1.

I really wanted to check this wasn't something obvious. If not, I'd planned on increasing the speciality of the professional I was going to seek and have been doing so the whole time. My biggest curiousity aside from whether this was something common and obvious was which professional(s) to seek.

So far, I'm going with (brackets means done):
[gait analysis recommendations from sports shop], try new shoes with ideas based on sports shop discussion, physio (maybe an osteopath physio if I find out what that is and is appropriate), doctor

So, not to worry, I get it. See a professional for advice.

Thanks though.

cwgatling

I know it's not allowed on Boards, and I understand and am ok with the reasons, but I think the internet is definitely a valuable tool for someone who's injured.

You can go to certain doctors and physios and be told you need anti-inflam medication, MRI scans, orthotics, weekly massage, dry-needling, support shoes, knee straps etc... when none of those things will actually fix your particular issue. Is that any worse than people guessing what your problem might be on a website? It certainly costs more.

I was told by a physio 3 years ago to take up cycling instead of running and any GP I've been to for a running injury has been rubbish.

Letsrun.com might be worth a shot OP.

MrCreosote

cwgatling wrote: »

You can go to certain doctors and physios and be told you need anti-inflam medication, MRI scans, orthotics, weekly massage, dry-needling, support shoes, knee straps etc... when none of those things will actually fix your particular issue. Is that any worse than people guessing what your problem might be on a website? It certainly costs more.

I was told by a physio 3 years ago to take up cycling instead of running and any GP I've been to for a running injury has been rubbish.

Letsrun.com might be worth a shot OP.

People guessing on a website is worse- at least if a doc or physio gets it wrong you can complain. The websites always just degenerate into "Here's what I had most recently in the same general area of the body so you must have it too". All it does is delays somebody getting the correct treatment. Letsrun is atrocious for this.

Here's what I would do (General advice here, not specific to the OP)- go to a physio who knows his or her stuff, relevant to your sport. Be suspicious of anyone pushing one single thing as a cure-all- like expensive orthotics or fancy shoes or a new running fad like barefoot running. Most running injuries require some hard graft on the runner's part to get better. And if it isn't improving, move up the food chain- a more experienced physio or a specialist sports doctor.

Or by all means spend your time faffing around on letsrun.com, but if you can separate the good advice from the bullsh*t then you're better than me.

William72

its simple - you need to go to see a physio

i had knee pain couple of years ago, read some comments on here along the lines of "don't come here looking for medical advice" so I went to the physio and he had it sorted in a couple of weeks

you're probably just wasting time and effort here until you do....

Dilbert75

To an extent I can concede that you may be correct Mr. Creosote. My intention in posting was to put across that my experience was that it took a visit to a physio to let them see my injury, treat it, see what worked and supervise my recovery. In an effort to express that clearly, I actually missed out on the important detail that the OP would need to similarly take advice specific to their individual injury & condition, like I did. My experience, and that of my wife, is similar to that of another poster - GPs tend to look first for a pharmaceutical solution and refer you to a physio for anything else. I chose to save the €50 until I knew the physio alone wasn't having the desired effect.

Slydice

Ok, I'm moving on to the next step. Physio (maybe an osteopath physio if I find out what that is and is appropriate).

I'd appreciate any recommendations on a physio, preferably one that knows about running and especially pains in the knee .

Here's why:
I did this warm up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq9rYiFUrsY
Along with 30 second per leg calf and thigh stretches. I went on the exact same run. The pain didn't come back as bad as soon. I was at the quays and then it came. It felt pretty bad.

So I mean like... I did about 8 months of pretty intensive running before I got it the first time so it's not exactly down to "I just started running and I'm an idiot". It seems to give me a certain "allowance" of time/distance before it kicks in depending on how long it's been since my last run. This can't be good. I gotta see someone who can figure it out. I'll try a physio and if that doesn't work I'll try a doctor even though that feels like I'd be wasting a doctors time which could be better spent treating serious injuries.

RayCun

Slydice wrote: »

I'd appreciate any recommendations on a physio, preferably one that knows about running and especially pains in the knee .

You'll need to tell people where you are...

Slydice

RayCun wrote: »

You'll need to tell people where you are...

Woops, Sorry. In Dublin, North City Centre. Can probably get to most of Dublin though with the various transport links or by car.