Christening Dilemma

LegacyUser

Hi,

Background: I was raised Catholic and I am now atheist - i do not advertise this when I'm home. My entire family are Catholic. I have only one brother.

So my Brother and his wife have had their second child and want me to be Godmother.

They asked me to be a Godmother for the first kid and I told my brother I don't believe in God and felt it would be weird saying I denounce the devil and all that jazz ...not only that but I think it would be disrespectful to the family's religion if I blatantly lied at the mass - he got p1ssed off, told me to cop on and stop talking nonsense ... the topic was dropped and it turned out I couldn't make it home to Ireland after all for the Christening so it was never spoke of again.

A family wedding just gone I did a reading and took communion - it was completely to keep the peace. I didn't want to get in to a religious argument with them and there would have been local gossip and questions ... It was just easier.

So baby number 2, I know I will be asked to be Godmother again and there is no getting out of this one by not going home! - I'm beginning to believe it might be just easier for everyone if I just go up and say the words ... they are only words to me or do I stand by my non-beliefs and in my mothers words..'bring shame on the family'!

Remember we are from a small country village where everyone knows everything -- the questions will be aimed at my family, not me, as I don't live in Ireland.

Anyone been in this situation?

I'm not sure if there is a right option to be honest!!

Thanks in advance for any advise you can give.

I am a friend

You are displaying double stands having taken communion (which was very wrong of you as an atheist imho) but refusing to say words in a christening ceremony....

I dont think you should be godmother but I also think you shouldnt partake in any of other religious ceremonies you dont believe in.

The Lovely Muffin

It might be easier to say nothing and go along with what others want/believe, but I think you should do what you feel is right.

If you feel it's right to go along with what your family want, then do that, but if you feel it's better to stand by your beliefs, than do that.

Your family need to accept that everyone has different beliefs and opinions, they should respect your wishes and beliefs, just as you respect their's.

Big Bag of Chips

I think you're thinking too much about what everyone else thinks!

Honestly, nobody cares.

Your family might... MIGHT.. be a bit put out by your beliefs, or lack of, but I can almost guarantee that the neighbours couldn't give a damn!

They have too much going on in their own lives to be worried about whether or not you're Godmother to their neighbour's child.

I challenge you to ask a few of them who the first child's Godparents are. They won't know, or care. Some of them might assume its you!

Do you think you are the first/only person in your village to stop going to mass or believing in God?

It will only become an issue if you or your family go around making an issue of it. Keep your heads down, get on with your own business and nobody will take time to notice.

No matter how small your village!

Ickle Magoo

If you can do a reading and take communion for someone else at their wedding - why can't you be godmother to your siblings child?

Had you wanted nothing to do with religion and religious ceremonies in general then I'd suggest standing your ground - but as it would appear to be one rule for one and a different for your brother then I'd suggest sucking it up in this case. If doing a reading a communion wasn't so against your beliefs you couldn't do that then I don't know why you'd suddenly want to put the foot down now.

That said, I don't think there is really any point stressing about it until they actually ask you - which may not happen given the last time.

Daisy M

You should tell your brother once again how you feel and ask him to discuss this with the priest who is carrying out the christening cermoney. Tell them you would love to have a role in your neice/nephews life but are unable to fulfil the religious aspect of it. It will be upto the priest to give his consent or not.
You really should not have taken communion if you are an atheist, the reading I would have no problem with or if you had crossed your hands at communion time for a blessing, but you shouldnt have taken communion. Please dont fool yourself that that many people will care about your religious views most wont care.

LegacyUser

Thanks all for your reply. I think it might be time to stand firm on this occasion. She has plenty of sisters to take my place

It would only lead to a downward spiral anyway as there is no chance I would be christening any kids I would have or raising them catholic.

Just so you don't get too focused on me taking communion - it was the first time I've had it in years - it was the brothers wedding and the front row got special treatment - no excuse though!

analucija

Oh the drama. I'm in the same boat as you and have completely different attitude. There is no god so he won't care what I say or don't say in the church and my family will be happy. Just do the damn thing it's not like you'll rot in hell for it. Besides do you also feel bad when you say to somebody that their ass doesn't look bad in that. We tell little white lies all the time to keep people happy and one more won't make any difference.

iguana

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Had you wanted nothing to do with religion and religious ceremonies in general then I'd suggest standing your ground - but as it would appear to be one rule for one and a different for your brother then I'd suggest sucking it up in this case. If doing a reading a communion wasn't so against your beliefs you couldn't do that then I don't know why you'd suddenly want to put the foot down now.

I don't know. I'd always decline any offer of being a godparent for areligious reasons but I did do a reading at my uncle's funeral last year. There was just no way on earth I could do anything to make my grandmother's life even slightly more difficult while she was burying her child. A lot of my family on that side are atheist and it was like pulling teeth getting someone agree to read.

I'd also see agreeing to do a reading at a wedding as quite a bit different to agreeing to be a godparent. Reading at a wedding is a brief participation at a ceremony which two adults chose to have. I'm not sure it's that different to putting a broom out for a Pagan couple to jump over or tying a scarf around a Hindu couple. Being a godparent is making a life long commitment to guard the Catholic upbringing of a child that has no say in the matter. I don't see how they are even slightly similar.

strandroad

iguana wrote: »

I'd also see agreeing to do a reading at a wedding as quite a bit different to agreeing to be a godparent. Reading at a wedding is a brief participation at a ceremony which two adults chose to have. I'm not sure it's that different to putting a broom out for a Pagan couple to jump over or tying a scarf around a Hindu couple. Being a godparent is making a life long commitment to guard the Catholic upbringing of a child that has no say in the matter. I don't see how they are even slightly similar.

I agree; readings, communions etc are only about the person who does them. If they want to fake them, they are not hurting anyone. You don't even have to be a believer to do a reading; at one wedding I attended a well known atheist was asked to do it since he had a beautiful voice and reading manner - which he didn't mind at all - and everyone was happy.

Now when you agree to be a godparent you accept a certain religious commitment towards the child. If you fake it, you fail the child from day one.

Zen65

BetweenaRockAndHardPlace wrote: »

I'm not sure if there is a right option to be honest!!

Thanks in advance for any advise you can give.

You're being asked to be a godparent; you are not being asked to believe anything.

As a godparent your spiritual role would only be to provide insight and guidance, not to persuade your godchild in any particular belief. You can provide information on the teachings of the church since you were once a member, and you most probably know the church's teachings, even if you disagree with them.

You can preface the response to any question with "the church teaches that ....", without compromising your own beliefs. In fact as an atheist you might find that you can articulate the teachings of the Christian church in a matter-of-fact way which allows the godchild to make up their own mind. Obviously you must be careful not to promote atheism as this would be a violation of the pact with your brother, but neither should you compromise your own beliefs by trying to promote theism.

I am godparent to a number of relatives, though I do not believe in the existence of a God in the manner that is taught by the Christian churches. I see no conflict in that role, since I am well versed in the teachings of the major Christian faiths (and a few others) so I could answer any questions my godchildren may have. I consider my own belief system to be aligned to Buddhism, where there is no need to accept the existence of a god in order to believe in a spiritual existence, nor to hold a set of moral convictions. I believe that my moral convictions are very closely aligned to the teachings accredited to Christ, but they do not concur with the distorted teachings of the Christian church, as I do not consider the church to be aligned to the teachings of their founder. In simple moral terms, it is irrelevant that I do not accept that the Christ was god; his teachings of morality are a fairly decent set of moral guidelines.

So what I'm saying is this; there's no reason not to accept the role of godparent just because you are an atheist. You can be a moral compass for your godchild if the need arises without having to be a subscriber to the faith of the Christian church. If your brother asks you to fill that role then he knows what he's signing up for.

In Buddhism there is a principle of respecting propriety such as the beliefs of others, without having to accept those beliefs. Atheists can equally abide by this principle without compromising their beliefs ... you have already done this previously.

Sharing the joy of parenthood and its associated responsibilities with your brother is more important than denouncing his religious belief.

Be at peace,

Z

analucija

mhge wrote: »

Now when you agree to be a godparent you accept a certain religious commitment towards the child. If you fake it, you fail the child from day one.

Considering the child did not decide to become anything, you can't fail the child. You can fail the parents but since they know she is an atheist it's their problem.

We had our son christened because it meant something to our parents. But we didn't pick godparents for their religious beliefs, we picked people that could offer support to our son if something happened to us. People have different reasons why they pick somebody to be godparent but from my experience, being good catholic usually isn't one of them.

Zen65

Zen65 wrote: »

You're being asked to be a godparent; you are not being asked to believe anything.

She's being asked to get up in front of everyone and lie about her beliefs, and lie to the priest in his own church.
I would also refuse, OP. I would also view it as disrespectful to the religion itself.
The idea is to provide guidance in that religion, not general guidance

In Buddhism there is a principle of respecting propriety such as the beliefs of others, without having to accept those beliefs.

There is also right speech & right action, and participating in the ceremony as a godparent would be neither

Ickle Magoo

iguana wrote: »

I don't know...

But as you also quoted but ignored for some reason, the OP took communion at the wedding - it wasn't just doing a reading. If they'd refused to to have any kind of religious input into the ceremony then I'd agree with you...but they didn't. They were quite happy to go along with things then and I'd imagine their family won't see much of a difference between being asked to be a godparent in typical pick-and-mix catholic ireland and taking a communion at someone else's wedding - barring the obvious snub to her brother. I'm an atheist and it looks completely hypocritical to me to do one and not the other, I can only imagine how those who witnessed the OP taking communion are going to view their sudden refusal to take part in a religious ceremony for their niece/nephew.

To me, the whole being true to your beliefs and respectful to a religion and taking the moral high ground went out the window the minute the OP was perfectly happy to do just that in full view...if it's only a question of being about the OP and the argument that OP should be able to pick and choose when they play along or refuse to be part of religious ceremony then fair enough, the OP should refuse and fully expect their family to think them ridiculous - because the lack of consistency is making their pleas look just that ...on the other-hand if they don't want their own actions and hypocrisy to cause a family row then doing as much religious input into the childs' life as the average cultural catholic is hardly much different to playing along at the wedding...

As far as I can see, it really comes down to what is more important - standing up for their [non] beliefs or not offending their family...and given they apparently don't feel so strongly about their lack of beliefs that taking communion is an issue, it seems a bit silly to demand their lack of belief be respected but only if and when they choose it. The OP can certainly try to explain why they're taking communion one minute and unable to be a godparent due to their lack of religion the next - but I just wouldn't expect much understanding, given the lack of consistency in their own actions.

Ickle Magoo

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

As far as I can see, it really comes down to what is more important - standing up for their [non] beliefs or not offending their family...and given they apparently don't feel so strongly about their lack of beliefs that taking communion is an issue, it seems a bit silly to demand their lack of belief be respected but only if and when they choose it. The OP can certainly try to explain why they're taking communion one minute and unable to be a godparent due to their lack of religion the next - but I just wouldn't expect much understanding, given the lack of consistency in their own actions.

That's true - don't know why they took communion (I refused at a family wedding, and I wasn't the only one), so it will just look hypocritical at this stage

iguana

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

But as you also quoted but ignored for some reason, the OP took communion at the wedding - it wasn't just doing a reading.

True, taking communion is a declaration that you are of that religion not just a participating guest. On the other hand the OP sounds young and maybe she just wasn't ready to draw her line in the sand at that point. She'd tried before, been called ridiculous, didn't have the confidence at the wedding and now wants to try again.

So actually OP I think that's the crux of this. If this is where you want to draw your line then draw it but don't hop over and back across it when ever you lose your nerve. You will confuse your family and look like a hypocrite and an attention seeker. At my uncle's funeral I was in the front row and when the priest came over to give communion to everyone in that row first I just shook my head slightly, bowed it and he moved on. I doubt anyone paid any attention.

wasper

BetweenaRockAndHardPlace wrote: »

Hi,

Background: I was raised Catholic and I am now atheist - i do not advertise this when I'm home. My entire family are Catholic. I have only one brother.

So my Brother and his wife have had their second child and want me to be Godmother.

They asked me to be a Godmother for the first kid and I told my brother I don't believe in God and felt it would be weird saying I denounce the devil and all that jazz ...not only that but I think it would be disrespectful to the family's religion if I blatantly lied at the mass - he got p1ssed off, told me to cop on and stop talking nonsense ... the topic was dropped and it turned out I couldn't make it home to Ireland after all for the Christening so it was never spoke of again.

A family wedding just gone I did a reading and took communion - it was completely to keep the peace. I didn't want to get in to a religious argument with them and there would have been local gossip and questions ... It was just easier.

So baby number 2, I know I will be asked to be Godmother again and there is no getting out of this one by not going home! - I'm beginning to believe it might be just easier for everyone if I just go up and say the words ... they are only words to me or do I stand by my non-beliefs and in my mothers words..'bring shame on the family'!

Remember we are from a small country village where everyone knows everything -- the questions will be aimed at my family, not me, as I don't live in Ireland.

Anyone been in this situation?

I'm not sure if there is a right option to be honest!!

Thanks in advance for any advise you can give.

I would tell your brother that you are an atheist & if he still wants to you be godmother, then go with it. As long as he & wife are aware of your situation.

Sleepy

Talk to the brother about it. Personally, I'd have little problem with the disrespecting of an institution or beliefs I don't consider worthy of respect and, in your position, would probably be happy enough to parrot the words if it kept the peace once there was agreement between myself and the child's parents as to what my role as godparent would actually involve: i.e. a guardianship role in the event of something happening to the parents, being a positive influence on the child etc.

Beruthiel

BetweenaRockAndHardPlace wrote: »

Anyone been in this situation?

I was asked to do a reading at my Grandmothers funeral. I refused on the grounds it would be hypocritical of me and just suggested to my Aunt that she ask one of my (many) cousins to do it.

Don't be bullied by people OP. Stand your ground and if they give you gip, give as good as you get.

Also, stop pretending. You cannot claim to be an atheist if you are doing readings and taking communion.

saa

You can attend religious ceremonies respectfully, I understand not wanting to participate I would never take communion, I wouldn't get uppity about saying words as personally I don't believe in their practice so it doesn't go against my moral code,
If you want to stand your ground that is fine but your issue is now how to go about it without causing drama, so avoid trying to debate or justify why you are not religious if you treat it like its not a big issue they'll be having a one sided argument.

I wouldn't want a religious person talking to me about their faith so I guess they don't want to hear about you not having faith, they'll get over it!

LegacyUser

Op back again.

Thanks again for your feedback.

To the atheists on this forum - I respect you for being so strong in your beliefs - I'm not young but I'm new to this whole not believing in God thing - its not easy to suddenly start rejecting everything that was pretty fundamental for the first 25 years of my life and is still part of all my families lives - stopping old habits takes time!

To me, representing a child at their christening would be a vow to continue their catholic education if something happened to their parents and I know that's what it means to the rest of my family also - therefore I will not be accepting any offer to be a god mother if it comes my way ... its a little sad through, because being asked to be a godparent is a very special honour and it kills me to reject it.

Big Bag of Chips

Sleepy wrote: »

once there was agreement between myself and the child's parents as to what my role as godparent would actually involve: i.e. a guardianship role in the event of something happening to the parents...

Just as an aside, being a Godparent has no bearing whatsoever on guardianship of a child in the case of something happening the parents.

A Godparent will not automatically get custody or guardianship of a child. If parents specifically want someone to care for their child(ren) in their absence it must be written into a will, or at least be made legal and official somehow... picking them as Godparent doesn't count!

I'm not saying this is what you suggested the role of Godparent might entail, but it is often a common misconception about Godparents.

Beruthiel

BetweenRockandHardPlace wrote: »

because being asked to be a godparent is a very special honour

In what way is it an honour?
Will the child care any more or less for you?
Will you care any more or less for the child?
Focus on what is really important here OP, the child and their happiness.
You don't need to be a 'godparent' in order to show a child love and make them happy.

lazygal

I and my husband are atheist. We have both refused requests to be godparents. Its actually quite frustrating to be cajoled into the role with lines like 'its just symbolic, no one takes it seriously' because my response is 'why do it at all then'. Friends have taken it fine, but families have been extremely put out, to the point of serious emotional pressure being put on us to agree to stand. We also don't take communion when at a mass for a wedding/funeral. I strongly disagree with infant baptisms so attend these with serious reservations to avoid further conflict with family/friends, maybe this makes me a hypocrite.

Our child won't be baptized, despite the hints we are getting, and we don't plan on having symbolic parental roles. Does this mean our child won't get special attention? I have zero relationship with either of my godparents, my husband is the same.

Grayson

Principles are all well and good, but they're a bit boring. I'm an atheist and i wouldn't feel compromised being a god parent or saying a reading because everyone knows how I feel. they know i would just be doing it because of the gesture.

If my sister asked me to be a god parent, I'd be ok with it. What they'd really be saying is that they trust me to be an integral part of their childs life. And telling them no would be a rejection of them and their offer rather than an affirmation of my atheists beliefs. In my experience the godparents are generally the people the parents would feel safe leaving the children with if they both died (Or at least one of them is. The other is a political apointment so they keep both sides of the family happy)

OP, if you're a political appointment, feel free to pass it up. They can make someone else happy by asking them (So long as they don't tell them they're second choice).

If they're asking you because they actually care for you and would trust their children with you, you have two choices. Say the words and agree in your heart to be a moral guardian for them. Or refuse them.

But really, just do it if your conscience allows you to. Don't be swayed by people here who are banging on about principle and how you stick to your guns. D what you think is the right thing to do.

Reesy

Hi,

My sympathies.
I'm an atheist surrounded by christians too. It kinda depends, doesn't it, on how much you want to prosletyse your atheism.

The way I see it, most of the christians who I'm close to would just get upset by my atheism, so I play along. I go to church ceremonies (don't take communion or pray) and if somebody asks me to be a godparent, I treat it as an honour but explain that I'm not a christian at all. If they still want me, that's cool, and I'll mumble the words in the ceremony as a compromise. Hypocritical? Well, yes, I guess, but we live in a country where the big life ceremonies are dominated by religion, and many people expect one to just go along and will get upset if I take a stand.

With my colleagues I'm really clear on my atheism, but for the oldies in my families (mine & in-laws) I choose to fudge it, to keep them happy. Most of the oldies know my feelings, but they don't ask & I don't tell.

edellc

I am an atheist and I was asked to be godmother to my niece and I did it, granted I didnt renounce the devil as we know there is no such thing and I didnt take communion I ate before I got there

Seriously though I wanted to be their for my niece her whole life and I felt that if anything was to ever happen to her mother then it would be my privilege to take on my niece (sister was a single mother)

I also stood for my niece because regardless of what I believe my sister is a catholic and I respect that, that is her belief, and when I had a baby naming ceremony for my little fella she was there for me like all my family even the ones that passionately felt that I should have him christened just in case

LegacyUser

Born and raised a catholic. Not fully sure what I am now. Most sure not a practicing catholic, not sure I am a non believer, think mostly that I am spiritual and respectful of people.
I am however a godparent to a niece and nephew. Both my siblings knew my feelings of religion when asked to be a godparent but they also knew that I was a very spiritual person, respectful, fair and that I would look out for their child.
I have always prided myself on being a wonderful godparent, not just sending money for an occasion but making the time for my godchildren.
I have had to deal with bullying issues, sexual abuse issues as the most serious that my godchildren have come to me with - not being able to talk to their parents about. we share a very close bond.
To me it was more about being there as an extra support for the child as well as having a fun element to it as opposed to a completely religious thing. It has worked out well for us.
We all, within my family, I must say, were both born and raised catholic but not one of us now, including my parents (70's plus) attend mass or are practicing catholics.

LegacyUser

Really think ye are making a mountain out of a molehill. Im agnostic rather then christian or atheist.
If you are atheist whats the big deal lying to god. Everyone else in the room knows youre atheist. Its just a cultural tradition with absolutely no relevance for the majority of the population.

I really dont understand your attitude at all and think its entirely hypocritical to attend a baptism, wedding or funeral and take this sort of attitude in participating in it.

I am a friend

Reesy wrote: »

we live in a country where the big life ceremonies are dominated by religion.

The parents are choosing to baptise the child and not to have a non religious naming ceremony so thats their call.

Its possible to have civil marriage ceremonies so couples dont HAVE TO marry in church - thats their call.

So bottom line, your statement is pants as there are alternatives to all religious ceremonies - its just the people you know dont opt for them.

LegacyUser

I am a friend wrote: »

The parents are choosing to baptise the child and not to have a non religious naming ceremony so thats their call.

Its possible to have civil marriage ceremonies so couples dont HAVE TO marry in church - thats their call.

So bottom line, your statement is pants as there are alternatives to all religious ceremonies - its just the people you know dont opt for them.

Your being a bit unfair, the poster said religions dominate big ceremonies. Which they do.
Thought most of Reesys comments were bang on except the mumbling words. Why would you be bothered in lying to a mysterious entity you dont believe in.

Whats wrong with being pragmatic?

Grayson

People keep using the word hypocrite.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.
http://i.qkme.me/357jcx.jpg

A hypocrite is someone who holds one belief but pretends to have another.

If like Reesy you let everyone know you're just saying the words for the sake of saying them, and do not pretend to be a christian, you are not a hypocrite.

The way I see it, most of the christians who I'm close to would just get upset by my atheism, so I play along. I go to church ceremonies (don't take communion or pray) and if somebody asks me to be a godparent, I treat it as an honour but explain that I'm not a christian at all.

I am a friend

new zealots wrote: »

Your being a bit unfair, the poster said religions dominate big ceremonies. Which they do.

Only if the individuals involved choose to have a religious ceremony.