Letting Irish players play abroad

Coburger

Hey, with the embarrassment of this weekend, isn't it time that the IRFU, instead of not wanting so many foreign players performing in the provinces (which is understandable), why don't they look at the idea of letting certain players in certain positions ply their trade abroad with a real possibility of still being chosen for Ireland?

If Tommy Bowe could do it, why not let a few props or a fly-half play in Wales, France or England? Aren't they just shooting themselves in the foot with having only three provinces in the country which they are really willing to support?

Or why don't they try to boost Connacht, get them into a real team that can challenge for a Heineken Cup place. Yes, I know that only three provinces can go through.

bilston

Coburger wrote: »

Hey, with the embarrassment of this weekend, isn't it time that the IRFU, instead of not wanting so many foreign players performing in the provinces (which is understandable), why don't they look at the idea of letting certain players in certain positions ply their trade abroad with a real possibility of still being chosen for Ireland?

If Tommy Bowe could do it, why not let a few props or a fly-half play in Wales, France or England? Aren't they just shooting themselves in the foot with having only three provinces in the country which they are really willing to support?

Or why don't they try to boost Connacht, get them into a real team that can challenge for a Heineken Cup place. Yes, I know that only three provinces can go through.

It might be worthwhile for some of the younger players but I think it's best to keep the current internationals in Ireland where we can ensure they aren't flogged.

It worked for Bowe because despite leaving Ireland he was still playing in the ML/Pro 12 so it meant he was still very much in view of the Irish management, I think the Ospreys were also pretty decent about releasing him for Ireland. I don't think you would get that co-operation from the French clubs. It's interesting that of the three Welsh lads who went to France this season only Mike Phillips is still in the Welsh team. Hook is on the bench and I've no idea where Byrne is, is he injured? He wouldn't get in that Welsh back three anyway.

We have already seen players head abroad once they reach the backlog of available players when they get promoted from academies or otherwise.

Morris, Keating, Copeland, Steenson etc

The issue will occur only when there is no "space" for them in an Irish province. I have no problem with it whatsoever, guys will go away for a few years and hopefully can come back to compete for International spots.

Reddan, Ross and Downey have all benefited hugely from the opportunities available overseas.

doomed

Deleted User wrote: »

Reddan, Ross and Downey have all benefited hugely from the opportunities available overseas.

True, but it can make you pretty invisible when it comes to selecting the national team.

doomed

doomed wrote: »

True, but it can make you pretty invisible when it comes to selecting the national team.

That's an unfortunate but valid problem. But the right coach picks the right players.

That's a debate for another thread.

rrpc

Deleted User wrote: »

That's an unfortunate but valid problem. But the right coach picks the right players.

That's a debate for another thread.

Bob Casey, Shane Jennings, Leo Cullen, Trevor Brennan, Johne Murphy, Eoin Reddan...

All ignored whilst playing abroad.

rrpc

rrpc wrote: »

Bob Casey, Shane Jennings, Leo Cullen, Trevor Brennan, Johne Murphy, Eoin Reddan...

All ignored whilst playing abroad.

A good coach will not ignore them. (Add Ross to that list too btw)

rrpc

Deleted User wrote: »

A good coach will not ignore them. (Add Ross to that list too btw)

I'm sure there are others as well, those were just off the top of my head.

Monty Burnz

rrpc wrote: »

Bob Casey, Shane Jennings, Leo Cullen, Trevor Brennan, Johne Murphy, Eoin Reddan...

All ignored whilst playing abroad.

Or, to look at it slightly differently, brought home once they were deemed good enough for the national team.

GerM

rrpc wrote: »

Bob Casey, Shane Jennings, Leo Cullen, Trevor Brennan, Johne Murphy, Eoin Reddan...

All ignored whilst playing abroad.

And they were generally ignored whilst playing in Ireland too. The above players weren't any better than those who were selected. Nobody would have had Cullen or Casey ahead of POC, MOK and DOC. Brennan couldn't even get his game for Leinster with Eric Miller there. Jennings left because he was behind Gleeson in the pecking order and has been shown to struggle when given an opportunity in green. Johne Murphy simply isn't good enough. Eoin Reddan is the only player that there's really a case for and he was selected. He went to the RWC when with Wasps, finished as first choice scrum half and was selected again in the 2008 6N.

If a player is good enough, they'll be selected. It helps, of course, to get your foot in the door if you're playing in Ireland so you can attend the training camps to show what you can do but Bowe, Easterby x 2, Maggs and Murphy all have big cap counts whilst playing abroad.

phog

rrpc wrote: »

Bob Casey, Shane Jennings, Leo Cullen, Trevor Brennan, Johne Murphy, Eoin Reddan...

All ignored whilst playing abroad.

Were they good enough though at the time, I have my doubts. Of the players you have named, maybe Casey, the rest would have been decent bench options maybe but weren't kept off the team by poorer players.

skregs

GerM wrote: »

Nobody would have had Cullen or Casey ahead of POC, MOK and DOC.

They should have been ahead of Mick O'Driscoll though, but Mick never left home soil.

EDIT: yeah he spent a season in France, my mistake

phog

skregs wrote: »

They should have been ahead of Mick O'Driscoll though, but Mick never left home soil.

I rated MOD higher than Cullen and he did leave home soil.

GerM

skregs wrote: »

They should have been ahead of Mick O'Driscoll though, but Mick never left home soil.

I'd agree on Cullen but not Casey who's lack of fitness was the main issue with him being able to cut it at international level. He got a run in 2009 and was found wanting against second tier nations. Regardless, it's fighting it out to be 4th choice and not really going to have any impact on the side. MOD (who did spend a couple of years in France) got one international start when Cullen was in England. If Cullen was good enough to be in the 22 regularly, he'd have been there. MOD got the nod as he could attend training camps etc and was familiar with the set up which is a big deal when you play in a position that's central to the set piece.

totallegend

For me, this is a no-brainer. The IRFU is obsessed with keeping everyone in Ireland but we're not seeing the benefits.

If we're serious about deepening the talent pool available, why not let people go abroad and free up spaces at home? Craig Gilroy is an excellent example, would have had very limited chances had Bowe not left, and now that Bowe is coming home he'll be dropped again. That is not good business.

And Bowe is an excellent example of how a guy can be playing abroad and still make a huge contribution to the national team. The players simply don't need as much time in camp as the IRFU demands of them.

jacothelad

There are about 30 Irish players playing pro rugby in England. One in particular should be investigated. Tight head prop and ex-Ulster player John Andress.

seanm92

totallegend has hit the nail on the head there IMO, this can be seen in the other provinces too, look at Donncha Ryan, hes 28 now, so not exactly the future of the Irish second row, to a lesser extent Fergus mcFadden whos been touted as darcys replacement, hes nearly 26 now, still got time on his side but is probably still behind Darcy and O'Driscoll in the Leinster squad. Both these guys would have been frontline players at Connacht at the beginning of their careers and would have benefitted from playing week in week out. Players do not need to head abroad IMO, the IRFU just needs to utilise the provinces properly.

Kayless

If the Welsh players can do it why can't we? Are the WRU going to overlook Mike Phillips, James Hook and Lee Byrne, Gethin Jenkins and L uke Charteris ect? I don't think so... this could go both ways if the players don't get the same amount of game time then that would be a determinant to the Welsh nation team but if they do get game time it means the WRU will have far far more depth to pick from

ormond lad

seanm92 wrote: »

totallegend has hit the nail on the head there IMO, this can be seen in the other provinces too, look at Donncha Ryan, hes 28 now, so not exactly the future of the Irish second row, to a lesser extent Fergus mcFadden whos been touted as darcys replacement, hes nearly 26 now, still got time on his side but is probably still behind Darcy and O'Driscoll in the Leinster squad. Both these guys would have been frontline players at Connacht at the beginning of their careers and would have benefitted from playing week in week out. Players do not need to head abroad IMO, the IRFU just needs to utilise the provinces properly.

Donnacha Ryan may be 28 but thats still(hopefully injury permitting) 5-6 years at international level, he's fine and has plenty of time on his side
The 4 provinces have to be utilised properly with players moving between provinces if their is a lack of players in a certain position. Munster lack outside backs, leinster lack of 2nd rows are 2 examples where short term moves would have benefited all
Munster have had a rediculously large squad in recent years with quite a few players getting little to no gametime and are on full contracts.
Streamlining the squad would be a good idea

CIARAN_BOYLE

jacothelad wrote: »

There are about 30 Irish players playing pro rugby in England. One in particular should be investigated. Tight head prop and ex-Ulster player John Andress.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/squads.php?player=8356&includeref=dynamic
http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchcentre/players_statistics_archive.php?player=8775&includeref=dynamic

He isn't exactly getting a lot of gametime, has he been injured? I haven't seen much of him so I'm not really sure and to be honest I'm just rating him by his gametime.

Coburger

I wonder how many foreign players (who are getting regular starts) are playing in Wales at the moment compared to in Ireland? anyone know?

Naomi00

Coburger wrote: »

Hey, with the embarrassment of this weekend, isn't it time that the IRFU, instead of not wanting so many foreign players performing in the provinces (which is understandable), why don't they look at the idea of letting certain players in certain positions ply their trade abroad with a real possibility of still being chosen for Ireland?

If Tommy Bowe could do it, why not let a few props or a fly-half play in Wales, France or England? Aren't they just shooting themselves in the foot with having only three provinces in the country which they are really willing to support?

Or why don't they try to boost Connacht, get them into a real team that can challenge for a Heineken Cup place. Yes, I know that only three provinces can go through.

Even after the IRFU said they would support Connacht, a huge amount of players left for other teams in the last couple of seasons (Cronin, Carr etc) so it's not a surprise that they haven't made much progress. The IRFU should support them more so they can keep their players because they won't get anywhere if they keep having to find new players every year.

Hagz

Coburger wrote: »

I wonder how many foreign players (who are getting regular starts) are playing in Wales at the moment compared to in Ireland? anyone know?

More or less the same. In terms of players who regularly play there's about 20 in Wales and 20 in Ireland.

Tiernster7

To tip this thread does anybody know whether IRFU policy of selecting domestic players is official has anyone ever said it. Are my right in saying there isn't anyone playing abroad who would merit selection right now bar maybe andress or the lad at the brumbies who wants to play for australia anyway

bilston

Tiernster7 wrote: »

To tip this thread does anybody know whether IRFU policy of selecting domestic players is official has anyone ever said it. Are my right in saying there isn't anyone playing abroad who would merit selection right now bar maybe andress or the lad at the brumbies who wants to play for australia anyway

It will be interesting to see whether Roger Wilson or James Downey make any headway with the Ireland squad this coming season. If they do get selected at all, even for an A game then that would suggest that maybe there is an unofficial policy in place of not selecting players who play abroad if you can avoid it.

totallegend

bilston wrote: »

It will be interesting to see whether Roger Wilson or James Downey make any headway with the Ireland squad this coming season. If they do get selected at all, even for an A game then that would suggest that maybe there is an unofficial policy in place of not selecting players who play abroad if you can avoid it.

There is 100% an unofficial policy in place, I don't think the IRFU have ever tried to deny that really. Apart from Bowe and Murphy, I can't think of anyone who came close to selection while playing in the UK; Reddan got a few caps in 2007-8 until Uncle Deccie put paid to that.

[I don't think Wilson and Downey will get much look-in for Ireland due to competition for places (esp in the backrow) and age.]

Edit: forgot about Easterby.

irishbucsfan

Johnny O'Connor, Simon Easterby, Geordan Murphy, Tommy Bowe...

Can't think of anyone who was good enough and didn't get picked really.


It's more a case that the IRFU and Irish government are intelligent enough to give Irish players the opportunity to make their careers in Ireland, so there's no need for the best to go abroad.

CatFromHue

Wilson wasn't really in that many Ireland squads when he played with Ulster and since then the back row has gotten even more competitive. Downey went to the 2009 Churchill Cup so he was being looked at.

Is there an unofficial policy? I don't know. I do think it'll be interesting to see how Downey get's on with Munster though.

Rob Henderson, Kevin Maggs, Justin Bishop have all played for Ireland while playing club rugby in England too.

Fishooks12

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Johnny O'Connor, Simon Easterby, Geordan Murphy, Tommy Bowe...

Can't think of anyone who was good enough and didn't get picked really.


It's more a case that the IRFU and Irish government are intelligent enough to give Irish players the opportunity to make their careers in Ireland, so there's no need for the best to go abroad.

I would have liked James Downey to have been given a chance, too late now of course but it was worth a shot even if id did prove that he wasn't able for the International game

totallegend

CatFromHue wrote: »

Wilson wasn't really in that many Ireland squads when he played with Ulster and since then the back row has gotten even more competitive. Downey went to the 2009 Churchill Cup so he was being looked at.

I would imagine every fit rugby player eligible for Ireland went to the Churchill Cup that year, doesn't mean he was being considered for Ireland.

CatFromHue wrote: »

Rob Henderson, Kevin Maggs, Justin Bishop have all played for Ireland while playing club rugby in England too.

Interestingly, these lads date from the time when it was a distinct advantage to be playing rugby in England; there was a spell in the late 90s when it seemed that all you had to do was play in England and have some sort of Irish blood and you were golden.

CatFromHue

Yeah those guys were from a while go but other than Downey there isn't much competition from UK based players anymore. Even in Downey's case the Irish based competition to D'arcy isn't getting much of a look in either.

.ak

There's a big lad playing for Sale who's lack of involvement in the Irish scene by the IRFU is borderline criminal.

Tony something-or-other...

profitius

We would see more movement of Irish players going abroad if the tax back scheme wasn't in place.

flyingoutside

Woods was another being picked when in England.

Like others were saying i would rather keep the players in Ireland and strengthen Connacht, they get the rough end of it off the IRFU.

GerM

People continually blame the IRFU but they should realise that the players themselves have a say in their destination. It has happened on several occasions where promising players were offered a spot in Connacht but chose to reject it. They saw better opportunities available in England and chose those. The IRFU could do more to entice the players but it's not a bottomless pot of cash and anything additional that goes to Connacht, reduces cash in other areas. Perhaps the IRFU should prioritise Connacht more but it's not a simple fix.

Clearlier

flyingoutside wrote: »

Woods was another being picked when in England.

Like others were saying i would rather keep the players in Ireland and strengthen Connacht, they get the rough end of it off the IRFU.

Keith Wood too but I'm guessing you meant him rather than Niall Woods?

GerM wrote: »

People continually blame the IRFU but they should realise that the players themselves have a say in their destination. It has happened on several occasions where promising players were offered a spot in Connacht but chose to reject it. They saw better opportunities available in England and chose those. The IRFU could do more to entice the players but it's not a bottomless pot of cash and anything additional that goes to Connacht, reduces cash in other areas. Perhaps the IRFU should prioritise Connacht more but it's not a simple fix.

To take your point a step further what needs to be done (and perhaps already is) is to focus efforts on the development of players coming out of Connacht. If Gavin Duffy was originally from Munster he would not be playing in Connacht right now. Of course there will be players developed through the Connacht system who want to go to the 'bigger' provinces but the more that Connacht can develop a high quality indigenous squad the more you can create the virtuous circle of success that all the other three provinces have at times enjoyed.

[Jackass]

With Tommy Bowe back with the provinces, now is the perfect time to bring in a domestic rule only for international representation.

Essentially, if you want to play for Ireland, you have to play in Ireland. The point being that IRFU and provinces wont be held to ransom so much in negotiations, as players will want to stay, it eliminates a certain amount of competition for our players from abroad, and it also gives a big incentive for players who do go abroad to come back after developing into a quality player.

If we had this rule, we should then encourage our younger players to go abroad, safe in the knowledge that if they develop into stars in the Top14 or Aviva Premiership, in all likelyhood they'll want to come back next time their contract is up and it means more players can be developed for Ireland.

With the way recent contracts have been going, the financial strain on the IRFU and have a full deck of players at home, now is the time to bring the rule in.

GerM

There are only 4 provinces. The academies churn out about 10 professional players a season many of whom aren't going to be able to get a spot at a province. A domestic only rule would mean those guys would go abroad and regardless of how well they're doing, would be unable to be selected despite being only an hour away on a plane. The likes of Eoin Reddan could never have been selected when he left for Wasps to get a chance. The Leinster back row factory will see players going across the sea for game time and they too would be off limits. Ireland doesn't have the luxury of considering such a rule. NZ can do it because they've five S15 sides backed up by a fully professional domestic league. They will always have players and those that leave are, nearly always going to the other side of the planet where they'll be unavailable regardless.

[Jackass]

Quite the opposite imo.

The best academy players will stay here with a lot more going abroad who wont get game time here (with the added comfort of knowing that if they do make it, it'll be much easier to get them home with the promise of international rugby).

Eoin Reddan for example would have come home a lot earlier with the incentive of international rugby (and eventually why he came home when out of favour) instead of having no incentive to come home when he was getting his game for Wasps and Ireland. Same goes for Geordan Murphy, he would have been playing in Ireland with this rule.

It would just mean that we keep our best players, don't hold on to the good ones for the sake of it, but can let them go, see how they develop, safe in the knowledge that it'll be a lot easier to get them back in 2 or 3 years if we want them.

GerM

Reddan was first capped about 10 months after leaving the country. That couldn't have happened under your proposed rule and his international career may never have occurred. He wouldn't have been capped, wouldn't have gone to the WC and things could be very different. Take the amount of back row talent coming through in Leinster too. Conan, Gilsenan and Coghlan. Good chance at least one of them will have to leave for game time despite being a great prospect. If they elect to go to England they're automatically off limits despite the possibility they'll become top players with regular game time that they couldn't get at home. You could have a 22 year old destroying sides in England stuck in a 2 year contract. Ryan Caldwell has had a smashing season in Bath but he would also be off limits.

People move abroad for reasons that go beyond rugby too. Gavin Duffy moved to England after he met his future wife. Geordan Murphy was approached to move back here after he slipped through but had a life and his other half was English and decided to stay in England.

The current tax rules already ensure that the vast majority of players stay at home. Only 2 from 30 of our WC squad actually played outside of Ireland but a further 3 all collected their first caps whilst in England.

WeeBushy

The irfu could make a rule whereby they will only pick players that are available for their training camps. Any player that plays abroad would have to have it written into their contract that they are available for Ireland for their training camps, full 6N campaigns (don't have to play for their club on the weekends off) etc.

We only have 3, occasionally 4, team in the HC so opportunities are limited. It would also lessen the lure of huge contracts (wouldn't get offered as much abroad) and they could still be getting top level experience elsewhere.

It's not perfect as the irfu wouldn't have control over all their players, but it could create opportunities for players who aren't getting enough game time but are afraid of being left out of the loop for Ireland.

profitius

With more players coming through than ever and the average ages of the provincial squads as low as ever (I reckon) we're likely to see a bottle neck occur where the younger lads have to wait years to play for the provinces or go to Connacht or abroad.

Its good to see some English clubs keeping an eye on Irish players. The goal should be to get as many playing professional rugby as possible and the provinces can still pick the top Irish players in England to come back.

Sindri

We should re-consider the rule where players ending they're career here receive their tax benefits.

It should be a player who plays a certain amount of his career here, possibly a percentage of his whole career would receive these tax benefits and the older players, who aren't pivotal to their club anymore and are unlikely to be called up for international duty, should be encouraged by an unofficial policy from the IRFU to go abroad.

stephen_n

With the amount of games being played in the premiership and top 14 do we really want players going there and having no control over them?

sock puppet

Sindri wrote: »

We should re-consider the rule where players ending they're career here receive their tax benefits.

I must have missed the establishment of the IRFU section in Revenue.

Tiernster7

Anyone know where to find a quote from eddie o sullivan saying if it was a 0-50 call between overseas and irish based it'll always be Irish based