Security Officer Carrying Mag-lite Torch

Take_Her_Handy

Hi guys, I recently got a job as a security officer patrolling & driving.

While most of my night is taken up doing 140+ miles in a van, there are two places where I'm walking around buildings.

Last night I was on patrol of an abandoned building and came across a couple having some ALONE time. Now I got a hop just as much as they did and reached for my 15'' long Mag-lite (I'm sure there's a few jokes on the way there) The young couple left and all was ok. But if I needed to use a torch to defend myself and did, maybe striking around the head for a quick end to an assault would I be up for any legal implications?

I'm a big enough guy and prob would be chased and caught quickly if I ran so stay and defend would be my only choice if not near van. Say more fight than flight!!

I don't want to be carrying anything like a baton or other Illegal items. But a hefty and hard torch would do similar damage if needed. Just want to know what the story is, and has security guards been taken to court for defending themselves with a legal but potentially lethal item?

InReality

Had you any training in what you can and can't do ?
I think there is a security course that bouncers have to do now - would it not be the same for your job ?

Take_Her_Handy

InReality wrote: »

Had you any training in what you can and can't do ?
I think there is a security course that bouncers have to do now - would it not be the same for your job ?

Have the PSA license in Static, Door & Retail and received no training in what to do if I'm attacked, I just know that I have to defend myself!!!

Turner

If you are attacked you can use anything to defend yourself.

benway

Turner wrote: »

If you are attacked you can use anything to defend yourself.

But don't go overboard. You're entitled to use reasonable force, no more. If you go hospitalising someone unnecessarily, you could be found criminally liable. That said, if hospitalising them is the only way of protecting yourself - if, say, they're armed or particularly aggressive - then you should be ok.

You don't have to be attacked, either. Use of reasonable force to defend property from trespassing, theft or vandalism is a defence against a charge of assault.

Section 18 of the Non-Fatal Offenses Against the Person Act:

Justifiable use of force; protection of person or property, prevention of crime, etc.

18.—(1) The use of force by a person for any of the following purposes, if only such as is reasonable in the circumstances as he or she believes them to be, does not constitute an offence—

(a) to protect himself or herself or a member of the family of that person or another from injury, assault or detention caused by a criminal act; or

(b) to protect himself or herself or (with the authority of that other) another from trespass to the person; or

(c) to protect his or her property from appropriation, destruction or damage caused by a criminal act or from trespass or infringement; or

(d) to protect property belonging to another from appropriation, destruction or damage caused by a criminal act or (with the authority of that other) from trespass or infringement; or

(e) to prevent crime or a breach of the peace.

(2) “use of force” in subsection (1) is defined and extended by section 20 .

(3) For the purposes of this section an act involves a “crime” or is “criminal” although the person committing it, if charged with an offence in respect of it, would be acquitted on the ground that—

(a) he or she was under 7 years of age; or

(b) he or she acted under duress, whether by threats or of circumstances; or

(c) his or her act was involuntary; or

(d) he or she was in a state of intoxication; or

(e) he or she was insane, so as not to be responsible, according to law, for the act.

(4) The references in subsection (1) to protecting a person and property from anything include protecting the person or property from its continuing; and the reference to preventing crime or a breach of the peace shall be similarly construed.

(5) For the purposes of this section the question whether the act against which force is used is of a kind mentioned in any of the paragraphs (a) to (e) of subsection (1) shall be determined according to the circumstances as the person using the force believes them to be.

(6) Notwithstanding subsection (1), a person who believes circumstances to exist which would justify or excuse the use of force under that subsection has no defence if he or she knows that the force is used against a member of the Garda Síochána acting in the course of the member's duty or a person so assisting such member, unless he or she believes the force to be immediately necessary to prevent harm to himself or herself or another.

(7) The defence provided by this section does not apply to a person who causes conduct or a state of affairs with a view to using force to resist or terminate it:

But the defence may apply although the occasion for the use of force arises only because the person does something he or she may lawfully do, knowing that such an occasion will arise.

(8) Property shall be treated for the purposes of subsection (1) (c) and (d) as belonging to any person—

(a) having the custody or control of it;

(b) having in it any proprietary right or interest (not being an equitable interest arising only from an agreement to transfer or grant an interest); or

(c) having a charge on it;

and where property is subject to a trust, the persons to whom it belongs shall be treated as including any person having a right to enforce the trust.

Property of a corporation sole shall be treated for the purposes of the aforesaid provisions as belonging to the corporation notwithstanding a vacancy in the corporation.

Procrastastudy

Turner wrote: »

If you are attacked you can use anything to defend yourself.

Mag lite maybe - but a 9" kitchen knife? I can't answe better than benyway so I won't try but you certainly can't use anything!

Take_Her_Handy

benway wrote: »

But don't go overboard. You're entitled to use reasonable force, no more. If you go hospitalising someone unnecessarily, you could be found criminally liable. That said, if hospitalising them is the only way of protecting yourself - if, say, they're armed or particularly aggressive - then you should be ok.

You don't have to be attacked, either. Use of reasonable force to defend property from trespassing, theft or vandalism is a defence against a charge of assault.

Section 18 of the Non-Fatal Offenses Against the Person Act:

Rite!!! :rolleyes: I'm not stupid but found that kinda hard to take most in, these should be made maybe a bit more entertaining as to keep attention but i suppose it's all there!! Cheers man!!!

Chibs

I used to do alot of van driving what i always did was sound the horn in the van twice and give it a minute or two and keep shining your light i was never attacked normally the horn does the job. And we were always told if in doubt dont get out call the guards.

benway

tl:dr

You can use reasonable force to protect yourself or other people, to prevent a crime being committed, to protect the property that you are authorised to look after - whether by an individual or a company - from trespassing, vandalism, or theft.

The force should be no more than is reasonable in the circumstances as you see them.

The fact that someone may not be found guilty of a crime if put on trial, by reason of a defence of age, duress, intoxication, etc., doesn't mean that that you won't be excused if you reasonably thought that they were committing one.

If you provoke someone into attacking you, it may not be a defence - don't go to fight if you don't need to.

Think that about covers it.

Take_Her_Handy

benway wrote: »

tl:dr

You can use reasonable force to protect yourself or other people, to prevent a crime being committed, to protect the property that you are authorised to look after - whether by an individual or a company - from trespassing, vandalism, or theft.

The force should be no more than is reasonable in the circumstances as you see them.

The fact that someone may not be found guilty of a crime if put on trial, by reason of a defence of age, duress, intoxication, etc., doesn't mean that that you won't be excused if you reasonably thought that they were committing one.

If you provoke someone into attacking you, it may not be a defence - don't go to fight if you don't need to.

Think that about covers it.

Absolutely perfect!!! Yea attention span not the best, not bad but not the best!! Thank you man, it's good to know where I stand. Just after my reaction to someone being where I thought there wouldn't be anyone had me thinking all night, where do I stand?

An Udaras

Take_Her_Handy wrote: »

But if I needed to use a torch to defend myself and did, maybe striking around the head for a quick end to an assault would I be up for any legal implications?

What ever you do don't hit them over the head... You could end up killing them or causing serious damage to what could be a minor matter..

Remember your actions need to be ultimately justifiable in the courts or to your employer. If you hit a person over the head is that justifiable/reasonable to circumstances & What your protecting? Consistent with your training?

As a security guard you should follow PSA Guidelines and remember to ask yourselves does your employer wish you to engage these groups/trespassers or confront them or even strike them?

Would you be better not retreating to your vehicle and calling the Gardai?

Take_Her_Handy

An Udaras wrote: »

What ever you do don't hit them over the head... You could end up killing them or causing serious damage to what could be a minor matter..

Remember your actions need to be ultimately justifiable in the courts or to your employer. If you hit a person over the head is that justifiable/reasonable to circumstances & What your protecting? Consistent with your training?

As a security guard you should follow PSA Guidelines and remember to ask yourselves does your employer wish you to engage these groups/trespassers or confront them or even strike them?

Would you be better not retreating to your vehicle and calling the Gardai?

That would be an ideal situation! Always would retreat and call authority if possible. Chances are I will be never confronted and even if so I consider myself to be a very reasonable and friendly person to deal with.

It was just that I got a bit of a hop last night and it played on my mind most of the night after, and I was thinking what if i am confronted? If I was to defend myself on duty in the line of my work and possibly did hurt someone... what will happen to me if I even touched another person. I generally don't have any altercations in my life, can count on one hand where it ever let to physical contact. Just did not now if a security guard in any form of the job was ever brought to court for defending themselves, can see lots where they started the physical contact and was done and relived of their position but they maybe had an attitude towards that behavior.

No I'm happy to know that even in a professional manner I am aloud to defend myself in a reasonable manner according to the conditions of interaction from the other party. Sounds like a no brainer when you think of it. Just thought I'd get some opinions!!

Thankyou!!

An Udaras

At common law level you have the right to Self Defence along with the various provisions of NFOAP Act 1997 which covers civilians,AGS,grannies etc... Defending themselves.. Etc..

Regardless of who you are the decisions and actions you take even in self defence are all potentially liable for you to defend in court or even in a civil case which could be personally taken against you & not your employer..

Yes there's plenty of cases I'm sure of Security Guards facing questions of their actions in court look at the recent cases against gardai as an example. No ones immune even if their innocent and the choices they took to defend themselves,others or property from threat from an other where lawful.

It's not a nice experience to be sitting up in the dock on your own defending you actions that occurred months previous.. Avoid this situation if the option is available as you risk personal loss,stress etc..

But mate if your in a situation where your in danger and feel threatened then access the level of violence you could expect from them...as part of your situational awareness look at the alcohol/drug fact or height, weight, weapons, sex, numbers of persons etc.. and this will allow you to enter a situation at different levels i.e. is the person compliant with requests to leave the premises or are they aggressive & abusive.. At this point you decide if what actions will be reasonable & proportionate to the circumstances to defend yourself if violence occurred.

Victor

Take_Her_Handy wrote: »

But if I needed to use a torch to defend myself and did, maybe striking around the head for a quick end to an assault would I be up for any legal implications?

Potentially (a) you have pre-planned this and brought a weapon (b) to defend yourself, striking the arms and legs is more effective and less dangerous (c) you or your employer could be sued for being negligent in having a security guard not trained in basic self defence.