Emigration Survey - Irish Times

ejmaztec

The vast majority of people that I know who have emigrated, feel that they have been forced to, so I take the result of this survey with a pinch of salt.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0317/breaking1.html

A majority of those who emigrated from Ireland in the past few years left the country out of choice and did not feel they were forced to do so, according to a major survey of attitudes among recent emigrants.
The survey, conducted by Ipsos MRBI for The Irish Times, found that 59 per cent of emigrants left out of choice while 41 per cent said they were forced to emigrate.

JupiterKid

Yep, I agree with you OP. I mean, if the emigrants really "chose" to leave this cursed little rain-lashed rock and didn't emigrate out of actual economic necessity, then why do so many in the survey pine for home?

This seems to be more of a lifestyle piece on priveliged young adults with college degrees - and likely the future readership cohort of the IT - who are effing around the world for a couple of years under the guise of being "emigrants." The fact that so few people surveyed for this "study" had family and children (and other dependents) back in Ireland whilst they worked abroad looks dodgy to me. In fact, I doubt that the "study" was carried out in any objective way.

But perhaps emigration is the new decking and investment property for our lean times? Perhaps the results of the survey are just what our media editors and politicos want to hear? Let's view having to leave the country as a "life affirming" change that will mean less burden on the social welfare system back home.

Didn't a certain politician once say that there wasn't enough room for all of us in Ireland?

Here's a link to another IT article on emigration:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2012/0317/1224313458935.html?via=mr


Smells to me like a marketing of the emigration game. OK kids, you played the property game and lost badly - but hey, become an emigrant in sunny "life affirming" Australia instead and relieve some burden on the social welfare system.

munchkin_utd

its not fair to say that its an exclusive cohort of Irish times intelligentsia. At the end of the article they mention :

Sampling approach: migrants were identified by Ipsos MRBI interviewers through their network of contacts. Rules were applied to ensure only one emigrant from any college class, company or family could be interviewed, to avoid any clustering effect.

The "clustering" effect though is something that would REALLY skew your view of emmigration/ Ireland at the moment.

My wife's father is in the building trade as are his mates and in turn sons and cousins and what not of his and his mates (both as builders and graduate civil enginneers).
Their view of Irelands woes and any emmigration is nothing but doom and gloom and anyone in that "cluster" who is abroad is not going out of choice. Their view of Ireland is seriously negative to say the least.

My "cluster" of mates from secondary school and college(mech eng degree/ computer science Msc) almost to a man/ woman are still in Ireland and in (seemingly) well paid jobs, with only 2 emmigrated in the past years and funny enough again one architect, one builder - but the rest in engineering, IT and accounting seem to be dodging the worst of the current economic troubles fairly well.

southsiderosie

The sampling methodology here is pretty questionable:

How the poll was conducted
For researchers, to accurately sample the population of Irish emigrants is problematic, as no reliable measure of the emigrant population exists, and therefore no objective basis for controlling or weighting a sample exists.

For today’s Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI survey of recent Irish emigrants, a “purposive sampling” approach was employed.

Criteria for qualifying for interview were defined: Irish nationals who had left since 2008 and had left as an emigrant and not extended travel.

The interviewing method was telephone interviewing, deemed most appropriate as it would be reasonable to expect all emigrants to be contactable by phone, limiting the potential for data collection technique bias.

Sampling approach: migrants were identified by Ipsos MRBI interviewers through their network of contacts. Rules were applied to ensure only one emigrant from any college class, company or family could be interviewed, to avoid any clustering effect.

The research took place from March 1st to 13th.

I would think this is heavily biased towards well-connected college educated migrants, who would obviously have an easier time of emigrating outside of the EU, and by virtue of their (presumably, based on the sampling approach) dense transnational personal networks, would have an easier time finding a job, building a social network, and getting settled abroad.

While it may be hard to find people, trying to dress this up as some kind of statistically significant poll, rather than a semi-informal survey of friends and acquaintances, is really misleading, especially for a major newspaper. They may as well have run a Facebook poll, and saved themselves the bother.

mickydoomsux

I've been saying exactly what this survey found out since the beginning of all this talk about "the plight of emigration".

We used to call it "going travelling" during the boom years and young people were actively encouraged to do it. Now it is seen as akin to a death sentence because we've become a nation who needs to find the doom and gloom angle in everything. Even in this thread you have people questioning the validity of the poll because it counters the negative spin that the majority of the media is shoving down our throats daily.

LordSutch

I presume leaving Ireland in this poll means leaving this jurisdiction? and not the island of.

jester77

ejmaztec wrote: »

The vast majority of people that I know who have emigrated, feel that they have been forced to, so I take the result of this survey with a pinch of salt.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0317/breaking1.html

And if I was to apply the same logic, then I would say the report is accurate. I don't know anyone that was forced to leave. A lot of my old school colleagues and friends are living abroad, but not one of them was forced to leave.

myflipflops

We will have to wait another while before a survey like this could actually be done accurately.

With Australia especially, most young Irish people have not emigrated. They have moved on a one year Working Holiday Visa. The word holiday is there for a reason. It will take a few years before we find out who has actually emigrated.

the groutch

I think there's always going to be an element of choice in every emigration.

I know there isnt jobs for everyone, but they are there for those who get out there and put in the effort, rather than waiting for jobs to fall onto their lap.

There are too many people (although not everyone) who either think they're above certain jobs, or are not prepared to swallow their pride, and emigating can sometimes be taking the "easy way out".

mickydoomsux

the groutch wrote: »

I think there's always going to be an element of choice in every emigration.

I know there isnt jobs for everyone, but they are there for those who get out there and put in the effort, rather than waiting for jobs to fall onto their lap.

There are too many people (although not everyone) who either think they're above certain jobs, or are not prepared to swallow their pride, and emigating can sometimes be taking the "easy way out".

I completely agree. I know a bunch of people who claim there is no work because they are, for example, "a carpenter by trade". Sorry buddy, the building trade **** the bed, you're a "do whatever pays the bills by trade" now.

However, these people would sooner sit on their arse at home on the dole waiting for Celtic Tiger 2.0 or instead leave the country and complain about it than take a job outside their comfort zone. That's fine that you want to carry on in your chosen field but don't moan about it if you aren't willing to do anything about it. The economy in Ireland isn't going to change to suit your job so you have to change jobs to suit the economy.

counterlock

The Irish times encouraged the boom more than any other paper, I'd be curious to see what their agenda on this survey is. I heard this morning that in the height of the boom they wouldn't publish Berties suicide comments because of pressure on the paper from commercial interests....

also ahem.... http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0728/myhome-business.html :pac:

LordSutch

the groutch wrote: »

I think there's always going to be an element of choice in every emigration.

I know there isnt jobs for everyone, but they are there for those who get out there and put in the effort, rather than waiting for jobs to fall onto their lap.

There are too many people (although not everyone) who either think they're above certain jobs, or are not prepared to swallow their pride, and emigating can sometimes be taking the "easy way out".

Ouch! I disagree with you on so many levels there.

Speaking as somebody with experience, it can sometimes be a good thing to leave little old Ireland and experience the 'big smoke' wherever that might be. For me it was London in the 80s, for others it might be Canada, Australia or many other destinations. Travel broadens the mind, it also educates you in appreciation of other nationalities & cultures. Many is the business that's been started up here in Ireland (as a direct result of emigrants coming back home after living abroad) and bringing their new found expertise back home with them! Emigration can also be very painful, and the loss of loved ones is very difficult to handle when living away from home, there is no "easy way out" as you put it.

mickydoomsux

Travel doesn't broaden the mind, it turns you into an insufferable bore who thinks they are "cultured" because they did some bar work in Melbourne a decade ago

Azureus

Everyone I know who has 'emigrated' has done so out of choice ie to broaden the mind, see the world, experience something outside of Ireland. They had jobs here, albeit not particularly excellent careers, and all gave it up to go abroad. If they didnt have work here they wouldnt have been able to afford to go abroad to work, which is the case with my unemployed friends who probably could get work abroad but cant afford to leave. Its a strange and vicious catch 22 in my opinion.

In my case, I have a stable job here, and would absolutely LOVE to go aborad to work for a few years but feel like it would be crazy in this climate to give up and go...

Its the people with families etc who have to get work abroad that I really feel for.

mandrake04

according to the External link on that page in 2010 there were 13901 Irish people claimed to have emigrated to Australia, while in 2011 there were 17970.

That's an average of about 16,000 over any 12 months in that period. (or 1333 per month)

But if you look at the stats from the Australian immigration web site

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/

there was only 3700 Irish people migrated to Australia 1/07/2010 to 30/06/2011 12 month period.

DoneDL

Not sure about this survey at all, I can think of twenty or so of lads who went away for work. I would say that for the vast majority of them it was a forced choice. The local FAS training centre has a welding course finishing off and recruiters from Canada have already been over to offer jobs. Now having spoken to those who are going they don`t feel they have a choice either.

Teyla Emmagan

I honestly don't know anyone who has been forced to emigrate. In fact, the only people I know who have moved abroad have done so out of choice/to follow a particular opportunity. I'm a bit like Munchkin in that everyone I know is in a particular 'cluster' who have not (thankfully) been badly effected by the downturn.

For young people, I really think there are a lot worse things that could happen then spending a few years out of the country. You get to work, gain experience, live in a new culture and then (hopefully) come back to Ireland with a lot more under your belt to offer than you would have had if you spent the time on the dole here. It's people in their 40s/50s emigrating to find work I feel really sorry for. And anyone who has to bring their family along.

That poll says that 15% of the people who have left only had a second level education (the rest all had degrees and what not). Why isn't it more than 15%? Can they not get a visa to leave? Are we being left with a bunch of people who couldn't get a job here or anywhere else? (Sorry). Have the ones with the get up and go got up and gone? Just interesting.

df1985

for the vast majority that I know that have gone they went by choice and were always going to do it regardless of the economic situation here.just means they might stay away longer now.

Wild Bill

This daft survey is part of the campaign of lies and misinformation currently being conducted by ruling cabal in the Irish Times to support the referendum. (Fintan O'Toole has apparently broken loose - though that could be a marketing ploy - the token lefty/carer/sentient role)

Notice the vast array of "good news" crap we are being bombarded with from the same organ that drowned us in misery (not enough money being spent of every crippled stray cat) during the Boom.

The same organ who helped inflate the property bubble with acres of property porn and talking-up house prices.

Now the pensions of their senior hacks and overpaid senior managers depend on Eire staying in the euro - even at the cost of crippling the country for generations.

pragmatic1

Everyone I know has emigrated because they have to. Jobs are very hard to get in this country at the minute.

mandrake04

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

That poll says that 15% of the people who have left only had a second level education (the rest all had degrees and what not). Why isn't it more than 15%? Can they not get a visa to leave? Are we being left with a bunch of people who couldn't get a job here or anywhere else? (Sorry). Have the ones with the get up and go got up and gone? Just interesting.

Might be a bit more to it, Australia for instance is Dole-ist if you spent more than 12 month out of the previous 24 unemployed you will be rejected for migration visa.

Not sure about Canada.

UK it doesn't matter because its open door and you don't need a visa.

Teyla Emmagan

mandrake04 wrote: »

Might be a bit more to it, Australia for instance is Dole-ist if you spent more than 12 month out of the previous 24 unemployed you will be rejected for migration visa.

Not sure about Canada.

UK it doesn't matter because its open door and you don't need a visa.

True. Could be an age thing as well. I know we have great 3rd level education, but I presume that only goes up to those who are aged about 40. Anyone older is more likely to have ties they can't cut so aren't as able to emigrate (elderly parents, kids in school etc).

Father Damo

myflipflops wrote: »

We will have to wait another while before a survey like this could actually be done accurately.

With Australia especially, most young Irish people have not emigrated. They have moved on a one year Working Holiday Visa. The word holiday is there for a reason. It will take a few years before we find out who has actually emigrated.

The overhwelming majority of people who come on a WHV do not return home, never mind what the governemnt figures tell you. Been here 3 odd years now and I can count on my fingers the amount of people I know who have returned home, and being here this long I know a hell of alot of people by now. Even for thoise of you back home Im sure of all the god knows how many you know have left, you havent seen them since.

Odd thing about it is, when I first arrived there was a fairly even split between Irish lads in construction vs Irish lads in other fields e.g bar work, office jobs, professional clerical. About 50- 50. These days I cant think of more than four odd lads I know not in construction (and three of them are QS, so it is in the same field anyway). Seems in the "backpacker" days the office lads from back home felt more comfortable to take a year off, whereas now they are hanging on to their jobs back home whilst all the tradies move out. People talk about emigration being a national tragedy but being honest I would be of the opinion that spending your 20s working on some souless industrial estate for some woeful multinational back home, or on a site in the lashing rain for 90?% of the year, is a far greater tragedy.

Wild Bill

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I honestly don't know anyone who has been forced to emigrate.

You should get out more :rolleyes:

Ain't it funny how the surge in construction workers and graduates and professionals emigrating for the fun of it coincided so neatly with the collapse in employment?

I guess God really regards us Irish as the Chosen People after all - the same wonderful thing happened in the 1980s

Father Damo

Wild Bill wrote: »

Ain't it funny how the surge in construction workers and graduates and professionals emigrating for the fun of it coincided so neatly with the collapse in employment?

TBH I know an awful lot of people here who wouldnt have emigrated if they hadnt lost their jobs, yet wouold tell you that in the long run they are having the time of their lives because of it. The money to be earned here is filthy. You can make more here being a site dogsbody than alot of graduates back home would have got during the boom, never mind now. Even McDonalds and the major supermarket chains pay around 15 euro per hour. The lifestyle is unbeatable. The weather (generally), the money, the women, the 24/7 bar opening, I honestly wouldnt be mentally fit to live in Ireland again. 2:30am closing times again? Fcuk that.

Wild Bill

Father Damo wrote: »

he weather (generally), the money, the women, the 24/7 bar opening, I honestly wouldnt be mentally fit to live in Ireland again. 2:30am closing times again? Fcuk that.

Yeah, and when the Australian bubble bursts and age starts to creep up on you.......?

- or I guess if you think you can survive many years burning the candle at both ends in 24/7 bars; you might get lucky (I did!;)) but the causality rate is horrendous.

I don't think most young people want to be backpacking barflies for more than a year or two

Father Damo

Wild Bill wrote: »

Yeah, and when the Australian bubble bursts and age starts to creep up on you.......?

It wont burst, that is a fact.

That poll says that 15% of the people who have left only had a second level education (the rest all had degrees and what not). Why isn't it more than 15%? Can they not get a visa to leave? Are we being left with a bunch of people who couldn't get a job here or anywhere else? (Sorry). Have the ones with the get up and go got up and gone? Just interesting.

Get up and go?

You seem to be forgetting that an awful lot of Irish people have degrees in....nothing. Catch all rubbish like Arts which in a real world work environment are worth as much as a leaving cert. The thing about Australia is that there isnt near as much of the "have to go to college" attitude that dominates in Ireland (probably because here it is very easy for a citizen/resident to acquire ridicilously well paid unskilled work. Why get a sub par degree when you can make obscene money per week as a bin man or a forklift/excavator/ bus driver) and that those who do go only go to actually study something worthwhile. Only yesterday I saw a bus company ad looking for experienced bus drivers from Ireland to sponsor/ gain residency. Studying your arse off for four years is a bit of a waste of time with options like this available.

jank

JupiterKid wrote: »

Yep, I agree with you OP. I mean, if the emigrants really "chose" to leave this cursed little rain-lashed rock and didn't emigrate out of actual economic necessity, then why do so many in the survey pine for home?

Because you can still miss a place or thing, doesn't mean you want it.

JupiterKid wrote: »

This seems to be more of a lifestyle piece on priveliged young adults with college degrees - and likely the future readership cohort of the IT - who are effing around the world for a couple of years under the guise of being "emigrants." The fact that so few people surveyed for this "study" had family and children (and other dependents) back in Ireland whilst they worked abroad looks dodgy to me. In fact, I doubt that the "study" was carried out in any objective way.

It was carried out by the Ipsos MRBI who are a professional reputable body. Just because it goes against your gut instinct doesnt mean it doesnt carry weight.

JupiterKid wrote: »

But perhaps emigration is the new decking and investment property for our lean times? Perhaps the results of the survey are just what our media editors and politicos want to hear? Let's view having to leave the country as a "life affirming" change that will mean less burden on the social welfare system back home.

What, you mean emigration isn't all coffin ships, death and misery that we all love to portray it?

JupiterKid wrote: »

Didn't a certain politician once say that there wasn't enough room for all of us in Ireland?

Brian Lenihen Senior

JupiterKid wrote: »

Smells to me like a marketing of the emigration game. OK kids, you played the property game and lost badly - but hey, become an emigrant in sunny "life affirming" Australia instead and relieve some burden on the social welfare system.

Whats to market? People have been migrating to different lands and countries since we learnt how to walk. You post smacks of negativity.

mandrake04

Wild Bill wrote: »

Yeah, and when the Australian bubble bursts and age starts to creep up on you.......?

- or I guess if you think you can survive many years burning the candle at both ends in 24/7 bars; you might get lucky (I did!;)) but the causality rate is horrendous.

I don't think most young people want to be backpacking barflies for more than a year or two

Yeah and constantly looking over your shoulder while on the run all it takes is a RBT, caught speeding or being in the wrong pub when a fight broke out. The next thing you are locked up in Villawood waiting to be deported.

mandrake04

Father Damo wrote: »

The overhwelming majority of people who come on a WHV do not return home, never mind what the governemnt figures tell you. Been here 3 odd years now and I can count on my fingers the amount of people I know who have returned home, and being here this long I know a hell of alot of people by now. Even for thoise of you back home Im sure of all the god knows how many you know have left, you havent seen them since.

Well even if they did overstay they haven't emigrated, when DIAC are handcuffing them on to the plane what they going say?

"You cant deport me, I told my friends & family I emigrated"

jank

Father Damo wrote: »

The overhwelming majority of people who come on a WHV do not return home, never mind what the governemnt figures tell you. Been here 3 odd years now and I can count on my fingers the amount of people I know who have returned home, and being here this long I know a hell of alot of people by now. Even for thoise of you back home Im sure of all the god knows how many you know have left, you havent seen them since.

.

Yeap, never mind facts, Father Damo knows the real score here!!:rolleyes:

jank

Father Damo wrote: »

It wont burst, that is a fact.

.

Yeap. You must be Bertie!:pac::rolleyes:

Leftist

don't know why i keep reading that emigration section of the IT. It's driving me insane.

Today a priest sociologist is asking for foreign states to pay a tax on irish emigrants. Fortunetly nobody will listen to such tripe, as it would close borders to irish emigrants everywhere.

But what really riles me up big time is the self pitying middle class bleating on their blogs on the emigration section.
Poor me, forced to leave ireland, people queing on the piers, tears rolling down st. patricks face, as we are forced to go for about 2 years to australia where we expect a free ride.

It's just pathetic.

There's very little reason someone has to leave ireland. They do it for a better life. stop trying to pretend it's the 1980s.

Father Damo

jank wrote: »

Yeap, never mind facts, Father Damo knows the real score here!!:rolleyes:

For someone quoting a prime example of Sarah Palins retardation in your sig, you have an awfully naive view of Australian politics.

Wild Bill

Leftist wrote: »

There's very little reason someone has to leave ireland. They do it for a better life. stop trying to pretend it's the 1980s.

I share your contempt for the (middle-class) Entitlement Junkies in the Times - but you are downplaying the real tragedy of forced emigration for many.

Leftist

Wild Bill wrote: »

I share your contempt for the (middle-class) Entitlement Junkies in the Times - but you are downplaying the real tragedy of forced emigration for many.

no question there is some.

How many of these are going to oz though?

i'd have a lot more respect for someone who went to england, or even the usa. Instead of going for the extended sun holiday frequented by the perma students.

jank

Father Damo wrote: »

For someone quoting a prime example of Sarah Palins retardation in your sig, you have an awfully naive view of Australian politics.

Oh, I see Jullia Gillard has cooked the books of DIAC to em,....eh.... what... eh win support from the unions as illegal workers are not under cutting unions jobs? Sorry mate, but before I believe someone spouting off rubbish on an internet forum I will take my chances with the official figures from DIAC.

But if you want to enlighten all of us with what is really going on then do please share. It will be worth a laugh.

Teyla Emmagan

Father Damo wrote: »

You seem to be forgetting that an awful lot of Irish people have degrees in....nothing. Catch all rubbish like Arts which in a real world work environment are worth as much as a leaving cert. The thing about Australia is that there isnt near as much of the "have to go to college" attitude that dominates in Ireland (probably because here it is very easy for a citizen/resident to acquire ridicilously well paid unskilled work. Why get a sub par degree when you can make obscene money per week as a bin man or a forklift/excavator/ bus driver) and that those who do go only go to actually study something worthwhile. Only yesterday I saw a bus company ad looking for experienced bus drivers from Ireland to sponsor/ gain residency. Studying your arse off for four years is a bit of a waste of time with options like this available.

Regardless of what type of degrees they have, those are still the people emigrating. I was asking why only 15% of the people emigrating don't have 3rd level education. It seems like a very low number. Can you get into Australia then with only second level education? I see what you are saying about 'unskilled' jobs being available, but, as an irish person, can you actually get a visa to go to Australia and take one of those up? The figures don't seem to suggest that. And if we had the jobs market they do in Australia at the moment, there would be a whole lot less people in college here right now too.

mandrake04

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I see what you are saying about 'unskilled' jobs being available, but, as an irish person, can you actually get a visa to go to Australia and take one of those up?

Off course just get yourself a €217 working holiday visa.

6ix

Father Damo wrote: »

It wont burst, that is a fact.

Ha, where have I heard that before.

How an Irish person can't see all the hallmarks of a terribly overheated property market is beyond me. I pulled out an 88 page property supplement with the Sydney Morning Herald not too long ago, filled with property porn and plenty of urgent advice to "buy it now before it gets more expensive".

cassel16

Emigration and working visa's are so easy to get nowadays, plus there's advertisements everywhere combined with ****e weather, mates emigrating and the media painting the worst picture possible day after day.... then yeah no surprising that 60% of people chose to emigrate.

Wild Bill

6ix wrote: »

I pulled out an 88 page property supplement with the Sydney Morning Herald not too long ago, filled with property porn and plenty of urgent advice to "buy it now before it gets more expensive".

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

The end is surely nigh!


Now we know where those property hacks laid-off by the Irish Times are working

Teyla Emmagan

mandrake04 wrote: »

Off course just get yourself a €217 working holiday visa.

Yeah if you're under 30 and just want to p*ss off for a few months of drinking and spending most of your time not turning up to your bar job. If you are 50 though, with no degree, can you emigrate (long term) to Australia to take up one of these amazing unskilled jobs that are apparently worth so much money?

I am guessing you can't or we wouldn't have so many people in that category left here.

COYW

df1985 wrote: »

for the vast majority that I know that have gone they went by choice and were always going to do it regardless of the economic situation here.just means they might stay away longer now.

There are people who fall into that category. I myself will be finishing up in my current job in a month or so to take some time out and go travelling but the heavy majority of those who have left, leave to find employment, nobody can doubt that. If you have no mortgage and a few quid put by, it is prime time to take time off work and do other things.

Eric Cartman

anyone I know who left for australia, left by choice with the intention of getting quick money, drink it all and come back in a while. The people I know who were 'forced' to leave made other choices as australia has a lot of jobs, but not a lot of careers for people.