23 man squads

fitz

Just wanted to get a discussion going on 23 man squads for international games. Some of the scrums today were so dominated that it's lucky no-one got injured. Given the specialised roles of both props in the front row, would it not be a reasonable idea to increase the squads to 23, and require mandatory cover for all three front row players?

cgpg5

Sure its a shambles that it isn't in place for international games, works perfectly in HC, I can't understand why it hasn't been implemented

Hersheys

Needed. Urgently. Not just because of today but it is unfair to expect one prop to cover both sides of the scrum!

devilshalo

fitz wrote: »

Just wanted to get a discussion going on 23 man squads for international games. Some of the scrums today were so dominated that it's lucky no-one got injured. Given the specialised roles of both props in the front row, would it not be a reasonable idea to increase the squads to 23, and require mandatory cover for all three front row players?

Agreed. But who would you have as another specialist tight head on the bench? It's a pity that this rule wasn't implemented at international level a long time ago as Ireland would finally have had to confront this problem.

And we can look forward to 3 tests in NZ in a few months time:eek:

padser

Given the lack of prop depth in this country it would be significantly to irelands detriment to have 23 man squads. I'm sure we are lobbying against it.

It would essentially mean you replace your entire front row on 60 mins. We would be big losers!!!!

devilshalo

padser wrote: »

Given the lack of prop depth in this country it would be significantly to irelands detriment to have 23 man squads. I'm sure we are lobbying against it.

It would essentially mean you replace your entire front row on 60 mins. We would be big losers!!!!

If we are then that's the problem. How the hell is anyone meant to gain international experience if they're never let near the squad/team?

P_1

cgpg5 wrote: »

Sure its a shambles that it isn't in place for international games, works perfectly in HC, I can't understand why it hasn't been implemented

They still have 22 man squads in SANZAR, until they introduce 23 man squads nothing will happen

cgpg5

Theoretically we could've seen Court or Healy getting "injured" and as a result uncontested scrums would've taken place eliminating England's dominance in the scrum. 23 must be introduced asap

RoundBox11

padser wrote: »

Given the lack of prop depth in this country it would be significantly to irelands detriment to have 23 man squads. I'm sure we are lobbying against it.

It would essentially mean you replace your entire front row on 60 mins. We would be big losers!!!!

I disagree. Ireland have some decent props/props with potential, they just need game time. For example:

Looseheads:
Healy
Court
McAllister
Wilkinson
Loughney
J. McGrath


Tightheads:
Ross
Hagan
Fitzpatrick
Archer
Buckley (last resort)
Rodney Ah You (is it true he will be eligible? Tbh im not sure how good he is)

its_phil

RoundBox11 wrote: »

I disagree. Ireland have some decent props/props with potential, they just need game time. For example:

Looseheads:
Healy
Court
McAllister
Wilkinson
Loughney
J. McGrath


Tightheads:
Ross
Hagan
Fitzpatrick
Archer
Buckley (last resort)
Rodney Ah You (is it true he will be eligible? Tbh im not sure how good he is)

Take out Ah You and don't ever mention him again. :pac:

Loughney is naturally a LH but he's playing TH all year.

RoundBox11

its_phil wrote: »

Take out Ah You and don't ever mention him again. :pac:

Really is he that bad? :P I'll be honest I haven't seen him play in ages

Fireball07

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Really is he that bad? :P I'll be honest I haven't seen him play in ages

Any time I've seen him he's been absolutely woeful.

Tox56

I think Ah You was playing v Leinster A on Thorn's debut the other day?

If he was, he was absolutely decimated in the scrums by McGrath and Hagan.

its_phil

Tox56 wrote: »

I think Ah You was playing v Leinster A on Thorn's debut the other day?

If he was, he was absolutely decimated in the scrums by McGrath and Hagan.

He was. Moving on next year is the word.

Tim Robbins

RoundBox11 wrote: »

I disagree. Ireland have some decent props/props with potential, they just need game time. For example:

Looseheads:
Healy
Court
McAllister
Wilkinson
Loughney
J. McGrath


Tightheads:
Ross
Hagan
Fitzpatrick
Archer
Buckley (last resort)
Rodney Ah You (is it true he will be eligible? Tbh im not sure how good he is)

What happened to Hurley the Munster prop that looked good a few years ago?

Fireball07

Tim Robbins wrote: »

What happened to Hurley the Munster prop that looked good a few years ago?

He's always injured.

RoundBox11

Tim Robbins wrote: »

What happened to Hurley the Munster prop that looked good a few years ago?

Believe it or not i actually had his name on the list originally. Deleted it before i posted because i haven't seen or heard anything of him in a while.

I've heard good things about this Kyle McCall prop on the U20s. Another of the up and coming Ulster fleet!

CIARAN_BOYLE

Tim Robbins wrote: »

What happened to Hurley the Munster prop that looked good a few years ago?

Constant injury, on his last year of a contract in Munster at the moment and unlikely to be renewed

Was surprised it wasn't brought in when they made the changes to Rabo and Heineken. I think it would be good for the game as a whole, yes we wouldn't benefit much in the short run but in the long run it would have to be good. Also at 1 prop on the bench it leaves the risk of uncontested scrums becoming more prevalent especially given the intensity of the game these days and no one really wants that.

4PP

pithater1 wrote: »

They still have 22 man squads in SANZAR, until they introduce 23 man squads nothing will happen

23 man squads have been in place in the Top14 for several years now.
In the case of injuries requiring simulated scrums the team that cannot field a full frontrow have to take a player off the field, thus 14 against 15.
This was brought in to stamp out situations where teams were dominated in the setpiece & injuries were faked.
They also have an offensive bonus point rule whereby you have to score three tries more than your opponent. Again to avoid ridiculous situations which saw teams build up a healthy lead scoring 4 tries & then let the "losing" side score their 4 tries & pick up an undeserved point.
I wouldn't say the T14 is an example to follow on all points but on those two alone I believe club rugby should follow their example.

phog

Imho, you can lists TH and LH props all day but as long as the provinces have to have a replacement for each of the front row positions then they'll never need to have a prop that will cover both sides like we do for international games. and therein lies some of the problem.

Perhaps the IRFU when implementing their rules on NIQ players they should also insist on a prop being developed that can play both side of the front row.

Podge_irl

phog wrote: »

Perhaps the IRFU when implementing their rules on NIQ players they should also insist on a prop being developed that can play both side of the front row.

It would easier if the IRB just brought 23 man squads into the international game. The days of props covering both sides is going to come to an end in all the countries as they're just not required to do it at any level below international anymore.

phog

Podge_irl wrote: »

It would easier if the IRB just brought 23 man squads into the international game. The days of props covering both sides is going to come to an end in all the countries as they're just not required to do it at any level below international anymore.

Of course it would but Ireland have to wait for the rest of the countries to agree that while they can implement change here themselves.

irishbucsfan

No point developing guys to play both sides. It would be a waste of talent. We need to develop specialist props.

Eventually the IRB will catch up.

phog

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No point developing guys to play both sides. It would be a waste of talent. We need to develop specialist props.

Eventually the IRB will catch up.

In the meantime we hope that we don't pick up an injury during a game or if we do the cover plays in that same position.

irishbucsfan

phog wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No point developing guys to play both sides. It would be a waste of talent. We need to develop specialist props.

Eventually the IRB will catch up.

In the meantime we hope that we don't pick up an injury during a game or if we do the cover plays in that same position.

Or carry two props on the bench and a 5.5?

No point ruining a young props international career by getting him to waste his time attempting to learn to play both sides, stunting his growth in his actual position.

Podge_irl

phog wrote: »

Of course it would but Ireland have to wait for the rest of the countries to agree that while they can implement change here themselves.

They're going to have a hard time developing props that can play both sides when teams have the option of having two props on the bench. Most (all?) of the young props coming through have settled on just one position.

The IRB will catch up in a few years and for now we just have to hope the likes of yesterday don't happen too often.

phog

Podge_irl wrote: »

They're going to have a hard time developing props that can play both sides when teams have the option of having two props on the bench. Most (all?) of the young props coming through have settled on just one position.

The IRB will catch up in a few years and for now we just have to hope the likes of yesterday don't happen too often.

Read my post #21

Podge_irl

phog wrote: »

Read my post #21

I've read it. I understand the idea - essentially force some props to develop to play both sides. I'm not sure it's that easy though. Leinster could try and get Healy to learn how to play tighthead, but it would mean having a poor scrum and losing out on his abilities elsewhere for a season or two at least.

A lot of players like Court or Bryan Young have suffered from swapping sides so often and I think it's unproductive. I think the IRB will catch up on this within 3 or 4 years anyway, which is as long as it would take any directive on developing dual props to come to fruition anyway.

phog

Podge_irl wrote: »

I've read it. I understand the idea - essentially force some props to develop to play both sides. I'm not sure it's that easy though. Leinster could try and get Healy to learn how to play tighthead, but it would mean having a poor scrum and losing out on his abilities elsewhere for a season or two at least.

A lot of players like Court or Bryan Young have suffered from swapping sides so often and I think it's unproductive. I think the IRB will catch up on this within 3 or 4 years anyway, which is as long as it would take any directive on developing dual props to come to fruition anyway.

It's not ideal but assuming we wait and the IRB doesn't catch up, then we have to wait another 3 or 4 years, the cycle goes on.

4PP

Swapping from left to right to left is difficult enough at the lower levels, at the top end of the spectrum you have what happened to Tom C.
To assume front rowers can switch willy nilly displays at best an ignorance of the technicity of the game....:(

phog

4PP wrote: »

Swapping from left to right to left is difficult enough at the lower levels, at the top end of the spectrum you have what happened to Tom C.
To assume front rowers can switch willy nilly displays at best an ignorance of the technicity of the game....:(

How did we manage when we only had 22 man squads. How do the other nations manage for international games. Doubt it's rocket science.

irishbucsfan

phog wrote: »

How did we manage when we only had 22 man squads. How do the other nations manage for international games. Doubt it's rocket science.

England do the exact same as us. They just pray Cole doesn't get injured during a match. Neither Corb or Stevens can play TH particularly well. If the tables had turned and Cole got injured in the first 10 minutes then Healy would have handed either of them their asses.

I think most teams carry a TH because the switch to loose is generally seen as less problematic as the switch to the tight side. Maybe we should do that.

Either way we should definitely not be trying to produce players to play 2 sides of the scrum.

GerM

In fairness, Stevens is a far stronger tighthead than Court. The majority of his starts for England are at tighthead and he plays both sides regularly enough for Sarries. He's worth his weight in drugs gold. For some reason, we just don't produce guys who can prop at both sides and those that do, tend to lose the skill as they focus on one position such as McGrath currently.

cb_

I think having ambi-propsterous props is a red herring. Our problem is we do not develop nearly enough props in this country. What I'd like to know is what have the IRFU done about developing a forwards school in this country? This is something Gert Smal talked about last year, and it seems that nothing much has happened about it. I'm all for the IRFU proposals provided that there are frameworks in place to ensure that there is the necessary player development to make it happen. I'm convinced that with the likes of Feek at Leinster and Botha at Munster that there is isolated coaching suitable for developing props in this country; the problem is that these are isolated to the first team of our premier provinces. We need a forwards school to help develop a bit of depth in these positions. I think the way things are currently structured is that the outstanding candidates like Healy and maybe Tadhg Furlong in the future will develop into top internationals, but there will be virtually no development of the steady eddies behind them. I think the IRFU could help a lot here if they got some specialist coaches in this country to particularly help the developing props and other forwards in to coach them.

I'm sure the provinces wouldn't mind their promising forwards to go away and learn from top level forwards coaches. I think for young forwards, that it is not just about getting match experience, it is also about making sure that when they do get match experience they have good habits in place and the necessary skills to ensure when they do get game-time they can go on and blossom. In the grand scheme of things such a facility wouldn't cost the earth, could be subsidized by the IRFU and maybe even get a contribution from each of the provinces as they would benefit in the long run. This won't solve the problem immediately but in four years time we could begin to start having real depth in the front row. We need to deal with this now, as what Saturday showed was that if you can't scrum and you get a wet day, it doesn't matter a damn what ohter talent, skills and abilities that you have in your team. Surely this is worth the investment of what would only be a small percentage of the IRFU/provinces budgets?