PRE HEATING A FORD 4000

kincaid

hi all,

My 4000 tractor is hard to start and mostly down to low compression.
I give it a helping hand by using a blow torch but this is not handy.

I want to get some sort of heater glow plug fitted to the manifold and push button switch fitted to the dash.
I see there is a bolt fitted at the end of manifold so i assume this is for a heater plug

Figerty

I have a 4000 and it's slow to start without the heater plug. It should be there as a standard and it should be wired to the switch. When you turn the switch to start position, but just before the engine turns, the heater comes on.

In cold weather I have to heat it for up to 45 seconds to get the 'pop' from the heater. In ordinary weather like now, it needs 15-20 seconds to start easily. I think its common enough with the 4000s I hear, but as I have only the one Ford 4000 so I can't say for sure.

Heater plug is 10-15 euros and you could wire to the battery yourself, but you shouldn't need to.

kincaid

hi, what way is yours set up, i looked at a neighbours 4600 and he has a single wire cable from heater plug upto the ignition key and a tube from the nearest injector feeding into it but hes says he has not worked from he got it

any way of testing these heater plug switches

Figerty

Same as that, single cable to the switch. there is diesel line into it to preheat a small quantity of diesel. It's hot when you hear this pop allowing it to entry the fuel supply.
I presume the body of the tractor is the earth.

You could check with a multimeter to see if there is 12 volts accross it when the key is turned. IF there isn't then it's probably not working. This could then be wiring issue rather than

I suppose if it gets hot they are working!

kincaid

ok my line is coming from one of the injectors to the switch,
is this the way it should be as would it not be pumping diesel continually into manifold when the tractor would be running.

jimmyw

kincaid wrote: »

ok my line is coming from one of the injectors to the switch,
is this the way it should be as would it not be pumping diesel continually into manifold when the tractor would be running.

You're fuel line should be coming from the leak-off part of the injectors, which are not under pressure.There is a valve on the glow plug that only opens when current is applied to leave in the fuel, so no fuel entering when its running.


Thermostart which is the correct name for the glow plug are standard on most tractors.Well that's the way it is on other makes of tractor so assume its the same.

Wait a minute, I may be confusing things here, there should be a power wire going from the glow to the ignition switch and a fuel line going to the injectors

kincaid

thanks, i looked at a few heater plugs for sale on Ebay and they dont seem to have the nozzle that you fit the fuel line onto, they just have one connection for the live/wire..

Figerty

I'll give a look at mine tomorrow, I don't think it has a fuel line, It screws into the fuel line. I'll get back to you on it.

I'll try and get a photo.

The one you have will probably still work if you wire to the battery direct with a jump lead. I used to have to do it on minidigger and it worked fine till I sorted out the wiring loom.

It's worth a go to see if there is a wiring problem.

jimmyw

http://v2.ir.sparex.com/ItemDetails/ViewLargeImage.aspx?Action=ViewLargeImage&ImageUrl=http://media1.sparex.com/Common/Images/Zoomed/40627_pic1.jpg


http://www.ebay.ie/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570&_nkw=ford+4000+tractor+heater+plug

kincaid

thanks, i notice too on his 4600 that as well as the heater plug from ignition there is a push button switch on dash also

jimmyw

Its probably just a manual switch to operate it instead of a position on the ignition.We used to have this system on a Dexta with a Christmas tree bulb for a warning light:D.

A bit unusual these days I'd say, but perfectly acceptable, if thats what the switch is.

kincaid

jimmyw wrote: »

You're fuel line should be coming from the leak-off part of the injectors, which are not under pressure.There is a valve on the glow plug that only opens when current is applied to leave in the fuel, so no fuel entering when its running.


Thermostart which is the correct name for the glow plug are standard on most tractors.Well that's the way it is on other makes of tractor so assume its the same.

Wait a minute, I may be confusing things here, there should be a power wire going from the glow to the ignition switch and a fuel line going to the injectors

ok i looked again at your guys ford 46 and there are 2 nozzles on each injector, its the the 3rd injector that has a pipe from 2nd nozzle (going out) to heater plug but guy says hes not sure this was the right setup as it burnt out probably by getting too much diesel..

jimmyw

By nozzles do you mean where the pipes are screwed into the injectors on the outside, or on the other side where the fuel is squirted in the head?

If it is the former, it sounds ok, maybe you might throw up a pic or two.Can always help.

Figerty

Picture of a FORD 4000 heater plug. It does have it's own small diesel supply.

kincaid

ok heres the picture

its shows a fuel supply from the injector to the heater

jimmyw

Yes the pipe in the foreground is the main supply to the injector, and the other two are the leak-off pipes that one of is going to the heater plug, but are not under pressure. That is the correct way so you have it already there, but is it working?

If there is not a warning light fitted on the dash for the heater, I would fit one to know if its on or not

kincaid

jimmyw wrote: »

Yes the pipe in the foreground is the main supply to the injector, and the other two are the leak-off pipes that one of is going to the heater plug, but are not under pressure. That is the correct way so you have it already there, but is it working?

If there is not a warning light fitted on the dash for the heater, I would fit one to know if its on or not

Thanks but took this picture from neighbours tractor as there is none in mine you see and where there is this heater plug in his( which he says is burnt out) mine has a bolt instead which i assume can be removed and one fitted.

Also from the picture too where you see the fuel line from the injector to heater plug, on mine its going from injector down into the injector pump itself again but suppose i could take this pipe or fit another and seal up the hole going into injector pump

jimmyw

Oh right sorry, well maybe she wasn't fitted with one as standard? But I am sure you could fit one under the bolt cause most tractors have a bolt in the manifold whether they are originally fitted with one or not.

You could plumb in a t-piece to the pipe thats coming out from the injector and going to the pump and run another pipe from it to the heater plug because there might need to be a return to the pump.

Figerty

I have a Ford 4000 CD manual I think I got on the web fora few euros. I don't think all were fitted with heater. But a 4000 without a heater would be hard to start.

Noramally the heater works of the key, You will see the dash lights dim slightly when you move the key to just before the start position. i.e. when you are pushing against the spring. When you go a little further the started engages.

No need for an indicator light. When you release the key the heater turns off.
You will hear a slight pop when the heater has heated the diesel and the thermo realease the hot diesel into the fuel line.

jimmyw

A light would help though as you would know exactly when its on and not just guessing.Thats what I would do anyway

kincaid

jimmyw wrote: »

Its probably just a manual switch to operate it instead of a position on the ignition.We used to have this system on a Dexta with a Christmas tree bulb for a warning light:D.

A bit unusual these days I'd say, but perfectly acceptable, if thats what the switch is.

hi got a heater plug yesterday at €10 so not bad price,
I was going to use the method above that you used on that dexta by using a push button switch and take the fuel from leak off at injector, will this work and also be interested to know how to wire it up to the ignition switch

thanks

jimmyw

kincaid wrote: »

hi got a heater plug yesterday at €10 so not bad price,
I was going to use the method above that you used on that dexta by using a push button switch and take the fuel from leak off at injector, will this work and also be interested to know how to wire it up to the ignition switch

thanks

Yeah it should work although I think we had to use a separate plunger to squirt in fuel onto, not through the heater on our one.But it was a 1959 tractor so a bit primitive. If you can connect the pipe up to it, it should work. You have to check with a meter at the ignition switch which terminal is live at the first position or another position and put a fuse on it and use a heavy gauge wire to the plug and maybe use a relay too.


As a matter of fact that same tractor is for sale on DD now, but she has changed a bit since we had her.

Mf50

Hi I ve a ford 4600 that's was almost impossible to start, Then I started using "easy start" spray. It's just an aerosol that you spray into the air intake for a few seconds before turning the key. All I can say is it works! even on frosty mornings

kincaid

hi dont use that stuff it will wreck your tractor in the longrun

jimmyw

Yeah I was going to say that before, but I forgot:o. Fat lot of good I am:D

Figerty

You could fit a 'heater button' switch and stay away from the starter button. Belive me, getting at the back of the start switch is a b*t*h. Especially if there is power steering pipes in the way.

jimmyw wrote: »

Yeah it should work although I think we had to use a separate plunger to squirt in fuel onto, not through the heater on our one.But it was a 1959 tractor so a bit primitive. If you can connect the pipe up to it, it should work. You have to check with a meter at the ignition switch which terminal is live at the first position or another position and put a fuse on it and use a heavy gauge wire to the plug and maybe use a relay too.


As a matter of fact that same tractor is for sale on DD now, but she has changed a bit since we had her.

jimmyw

Actually that's how it was on the said tractor.There was a problem one day in the winter where she would not start and I traced the fault to a faulty separate switch for the heater and so that's why I decided to fit a warning light in conjunction to the replacement switch to make sure I would know if it was working or not in future.One thing I would definitely do is to fit a relay into the circuit though.

Bensmyth

Guys i'm not 100% sure but a 7600 has the same heater set up that you are talking about.
The Lucas key switch has the heater function built into it. Turn the key to the on position. You will notice that when turning the key further to start position you will feel a notch about halfway between ON and START.
That notch is the heater position and there is no need to alter the Original to fit a push button that may not carry the current.
Those heaters on the ford need to be ON for about 30 seconds so you hold the key at the notch position for about 30 seconds.

It should be easy enough to get the parts like the pipe going to the heater from a breaker or from a Matt Buckley agent.
If a heater was available on the Original 4600 then there is a possibility that it would already be Pre-wired to take a heater so it could be possible that there is no need to do any wiring on tractor.

kincaid

jimmyw wrote: »

A light would help though as you would know exactly when its on and not just guessing.Thats what I would do anyway

whats the best way to wire the light up now

thanks

jimmyw

It depends on if your using a relay or not (you should use one), but wire a power wire to one side of the bulb and the other side goes to the wire to the heater.Thats with just the ignition switch.

I would run the two wires from the two load terminals on the relay (30 is live, 87 is load/heater) and up to the dash or wherever you want the light if your using the ignition switch.Otherwise just connect one wire to the heater wire itself and power the bulb, but I would strongly recommend a relay though.If you are using a separate switch it should just be used to trigger the relay.

So to summarise,the light just needs to be connected between the heater wire and a power wire whatever way you do it.

bbeeforsalmon

I have a 1971 4000 from new. I fitted a thermostart last winter as it would almost flatten the battery when starting from cold even when filled with boiling water (wouldn't start with cold water). It now starts first tip even on frosty morns.) I bought the thermostart for Ferguson (135 and others) and fuel resevoir (incl. fitting kit) for same and a length of steel fuel pipe. Screw out the blank plug on the inside of manifold and screw in the thermostart. I cut the fuel return pipe about 6" before it enters the tank and connected both ends to the new resevoir using flexible pipe and hose clips. I ran the new steel fuel line from the bottom of the resevoir to the thermostart. The olives in the resevoir are rubber. The nut thread on the thermostart is different to the resevoir threads I think so check before you start. As it was not fitted as standard you would need to replace the ignition switch with one suitable for heaters (can be easily got) but instead I used the horn button (horn not in use). It probably would soon burn out so I fitted a relay also - if you need info on wiring ask me. I didnt bother with a warning light but can still be easily done. I mounted the resevoir where the regulaor used to be and the relay beside it. Parts cost about €50. Best money ever spent. Also fitted spurious power steering last year - brilliant. In dundalk if you want a look any time.

jimmyw

bbeeforsalmon wrote: »

I have a 1971 4000 from new. I fitted a thermostart last winter as it would almost flatten the battery when starting from cold even when filled with boiling water (wouldn't start with cold water). It now starts first tip even on frosty morns.) I bought the thermostart for Ferguson (135 and others) and fuel resevoir (incl. fitting kit) for same and a length of steel fuel pipe. Screw out the blank plug on the inside of manifold and screw in the thermostart. I cut the fuel return pipe about 6" before it enters the tank and connected both ends to the new resevoir using flexible pipe and hose clips. I ran the new steel fuel line from the bottom of the resevoir to the thermostart. The olives in the resevoir are rubber. The nut thread on the thermostart is different to the resevoir threads I think so check before you start. As it was not fitted as standard you would need to replace the ignition switch with one suitable for heaters (can be easily got) but instead I used the horn button (horn not in use). It probably would soon burn out so I fitted a relay also - if you need info on wiring ask me. I didnt bother with a warning light but can still be easily done. I mounted the resevoir where the regulaor used to be and the relay beside it. Parts cost about €50. Best money ever spent. Also fitted spurious power steering last year - brilliant. In dundalk if you want a look any time.

I am wondering how the tractor was supposed to start without a heater from new? Higher compression?

It reminds me of a Ford Dexta we used to have that developed a similar problem when starting from cold, but came to a head during a snowy spell.I decided to rig up (Temporary) a light to check if the heater that was fitted was working.Well low and behold, what was happening was that the fault was with the switch (push button) that only worked now and then when pushed in.After jump leads were rigged up, she started no problems.

I am guessing that the reason was that there was no relay fitted which burnt the switch.I then fitted a different switch, but this time with a relay and light.So I would advise you to fit a warning light to make sure you will know if its working or not.Well done on a successful job done........Satisfying, isn't it

kincaid

bbeeforsalmon wrote: »

I have a 1971 4000 from new. I fitted a thermostart last winter as it would almost flatten the battery when starting from cold even when filled with boiling water (wouldn't start with cold water). It now starts first tip even on frosty morns.) I bought the thermostart for Ferguson (135 and others) and fuel resevoir (incl. fitting kit) for same and a length of steel fuel pipe. Screw out the blank plug on the inside of manifold and screw in the thermostart. I cut the fuel return pipe about 6" before it enters the tank and connected both ends to the new resevoir using flexible pipe and hose clips. I ran the new steel fuel line from the bottom of the resevoir to the thermostart. The olives in the resevoir are rubber. The nut thread on the thermostart is different to the resevoir threads I think so check before you start. As it was not fitted as standard you would need to replace the ignition switch with one suitable for heaters (can be easily got) but instead I used the horn button (horn not in use). It probably would soon burn out so I fitted a relay also - if you need info on wiring ask me. I didnt bother with a warning light but can still be easily done. I mounted the resevoir where the regulaor used to be and the relay beside it. Parts cost about €50. Best money ever spent. Also fitted spurious power steering last year - brilliant. In dundalk if you want a look any time.

I would really appreciate it if you could pm/email me the instructions on how to wire all up properly as i was going to go with the push button but would be better run from the ignition

thanks

jimmyw

kincaid wrote: »

I would really appreciate it if you could pm/email me the instructions on how to wire all up properly as i was going to go with the push button but would be better run from the ignition

thanks

But if your existing ignition switch is working ok, why fit another that's suitable for a heater.Just wire it up like the OP, but make sure you fit a relay.

When/if your existing ignition switch goes, then you could fit one if you like.It just seems a bit extra work when you don't have to.

It would have to be a thick wire going to the thermostart if you do it.



Oh by the way OP, wouldn't it have worked too without a reservoir?

Sami23

Hi Guys,
looking for bit of advice on my MF290 glow plug. I'm doing up the tractor at the moment and checking all the wiring as I go along. When I checked the 'live' wire from the ignition switch to the glow plug with a multimeter for continuity it was fine. (basically I was checking to make sure it was not earthed along the way)
I then just happened to put one end of multimeter on the positive terminal of the glow plug and other end to ground which showed a connection.
My question is if the live wire to the plug is going directly to ground how is the plug working or this the way its supposed to be ?
I thought the live wire would be going into the element only ?

jimmyw

But its supposed to be like that.The element has to earth somewhere like all electrical items.Check with other electrical components to see its the same theory,etc a bulb.Power goes into the element, and leaves to earth which completes the circuit back to the battery.Otherwise the circuit is not complete and the component does not work.If the power wire was going direct to earth then there would be a short circuit and there would be a spark and either blow a fuse or catch fire.The way to check for continuity is to turn off all power and check for a connection between both ends of a wire/circuit.A buzzer sound or a "0" will mean that its fine and a "1" means broken wire/circuit.


I assume you are checking on the volts setting and not the resistance/continuity setting.

Sami23

jimmyw wrote: »

But its supposed to be like that.The element has to earth somewhere like all electrical items.Check with other electrical components to see its the same theory,etc a bulb.Power goes into the element, and leaves to earth which completes the circuit back to the battery.Otherwise the circuit is not complete and the component does not work.If the power wire was going direct to earth then there would be a short circuit and there would be a spark and either blow a fuse or catch fire.The way to check for continuity is to turn off all power and check for a connection between both ends of a wire/circuit.A buzzer sound or a "0" will mean that its fine and a "1" means broken wire/circuit.


I assume you are checking on the volts setting and not the resistance/continuity setting.

Yes Jimmy I was checking with the multmeter set to buzz when continuity is detected. Battery was disconnected.
Is there any way for me to check if the glow plug is ok and working correctly ?

jimmyw

Sami23 wrote: »

Yes Jimmy I was checking with the multmeter set to buzz when continuity is detected. Battery was disconnected.
Is there any way for me to check if the glow plug is ok and working correctly ?

Absolutely, I am assuming that its located in the inlet manifold.If so, then you can either switch it on and feel around the manifold to see if its getting hot around it, or just take it out and connect up the wire to it.Try to rig up another wire going from the body of it to earth and after you apply power, the plug should start to smoke, and if left long enough, it should glow red hot.

Sami23

Thanks Jimmy

roryq69

When the heater position on the ignition is engaged you will see the power light(red light) on the left of the rev counter dim a little. that indicates your heater is engaged.
I am restoring a 4000 at the minute. bought it from a hedgerow. engine was siezed and fuell pump was robbed of parts. Got a reconditioned pump and polished the piston liners and replaced a few piston rings and checked the shaft, put everything back together and she starts every time. I started it for the first time in 3 months last weekend and it turned 3 turns and fired.
In short its not a massive job to tighten up the worn pistons and is well worth the time. Neighbour has one that takes forever to start even on a warm day!