Sidewall puncture repaired

stevie_b

Just noticed that one of my tyres has obviously had a sidewall puncture in the past and has been repaired. I've just bought the jeep, so wondering if i'd be wasting my time going back to the dealer looking for a replacement pair? (assuming that tyres should be changed in pairs)

Is this something that would fail the DOE?

sean1141

stevie_b wrote: »

Just noticed that one of my tyres has obviously had a sidewall puncture in the past and has been repaired. I've just bought the jeep, so wondering if i'd be wasting my time going back to the dealer looking for a replacement pair? (assuming that tyres should be changed in pairs)

Is this something that would fail the DOE?

no need to replace tyres in pairs, how far up the sidewall is it? i take it that by repaired you mean pluged?

seamus

Yes, a repair plug in the sidewall will fail the NCT.

sean1141

seamus wrote: »

Yes, a repair plug in the sidewall will fail the NCT.

I think a plug anywhere on a Tyre is a fail on the doe

seamus

sean1141 wrote: »

I think a plug anywhere on a Tyre is a fail on the doe

I don't think so. Both the DOE and NCT manuals have the same spec for the tyre condition and they only say that a plug in the sidewall is a fail, they don't mention plugs or repairs in the tread (though obviously the repaired tread still has to be up to scratch).

Nissan doctor

It doesn't matter if it will fail an NCT/DOE or not IMO.

Its dangerous and I would definatly get the dealer to replace it.

mantaraver

In my expereince a small repair, ie pinhole, can easily and safely be repaired in a sidewall. However, anything larger than a pinhole may have damaged the re-inforcement plys thus making the tyre unsafe to repair as it would have lost some of it's strength.

And before anyone pipes up, yes I know it's not 100% legal but it has been done for years by many and I personally have never seen one fail after repair. Believe it or not, they even make patches specially for sidewalls.

stevie_b

Nissan doctor wrote: »

It doesn't matter if it will fail an NCT/DOE or not IMO.

Its dangerous and I would definatly get the dealer to replace it.

I'm definitely getting them changed alright - just wondering if the dealer is likely to tell me to go buy my own!

dr.fuzzenstein

mantaraver wrote: »

In my expereince a small repair, ie pinhole, can easily and safely be repaired in a sidewall. However, anything larger than a pinhole may have damaged the re-inforcement plys thus making the tyre unsafe to repair as it would have lost some of it's strength.

And before anyone pipes up, yes I know it's not 100% legal but it has been done for years by many and I personally have never seen one fail after repair. Believe it or not, they even make patches specially for sidewalls.

How would it not be legal? Can't see any reason why not.
Had numerous sidewall punctures repaired, tire off, sanding down the inside of the wall, patch on, hey presto, never a problem.
As you said, if only a pinhole and structural integrity of the tire is not compromised, no reason on earth not to get it patched.
I would say however that I would not trust a plug, be it in a sidewall or anywhere else in the tire.
If there's a tear or bulge in the sidewall, of course it's fcuked and bin it.

dr.fuzzenstein

stevie_b wrote: »

I'm definitely getting them changed alright - just wondering if the dealer is likely to tell me to go buy my own!

As laid out above, if it's only a pinhole and properly repaired you're just wasting money getting new tires.
If the dealer coughs up, go for it.
Bit of a grey area here, the dealer could argue that it's been properly mended and therefore not broke or dangerous, so no reason for him to change it.
If I was the dealer I might make that argument.

sean1141

also did you notice it before buying? if not the dealer could very easy say you got it repaired yourself... i would try him for a replacement but dont hold your breath

Nissan doctor

mantaraver wrote: »

In my expereince a small repair, ie pinhole, can easily and safely be repaired in a sidewall. However, anything larger than a pinhole may have damaged the re-inforcement plys thus making the tyre unsafe to repair as it would have lost some of it's strength.

And before anyone pipes up, yes I know it's not 100% legal but it has been done for years by many and I personally have never seen one fail after repair. Believe it or not, they even make patches specially for sidewalls.

Plugs/sidewall repairs may have been ok in the past but in modern times, tyre design is much more high tech and the sidewall is in integral part of the handling ability of the tyre. Also, even the most basic family hatchback can push over 160kp/h and the temperature and rotational forces which its possible to generate are way beyond the accepted abilities of tyre plugs.

No approved member of the Irish motor industry is selling sidewall patches for cars/vans/jeeps. Its also completly agains all Irish and international guidlines on tyre repair and not approved by any light vehicle tyre manufacturers.

mantaraver

Nissan doctor wrote: »

No approved member of the Irish motor industry is selling sidewall patches for cars/vans/jeeps. Its also completly agains all Irish and international guidlines on tyre repair and not approved by any light vehicle tyre manufacturers.

Yeah, but since when did we ever do anything by the book in this country, eh?

Nissan doctor

mantaraver wrote: »

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Yeah, but since when did we ever do anything by the book in this country, eh?

Professionals do..

dr.fuzzenstein

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Plugs/sidewall repairs may have been ok in the past but in modern times, tyre design is much more high tech and the sidewall is in integral part of the handling ability of the tyre. Also, even the most basic family hatchback can push over 160kp/h and the temperature and rotational forces which its possible to generate are way beyond the accepted abilities of tyre plugs.

No approved member of the Irish motor industry is selling sidewall patches for cars/vans/jeeps. Its also completly agains all Irish and international guidlines on tyre repair and not approved by any light vehicle tyre manufacturers.

Be that as it may, but after I punctured my two week old tire with a piece of bramble, I was really glad that I could get it repaired.
Small pinhole=no structural damage, since the fabric holding the tire together would be largely unscathed and the patch only has to keep the air from escaping.
Of course as soon as there is anything bigger than a pinhole, like a tear or even a bulge, it's fcuked and needs to be binned.
But no fcuking way would I bin a two week old tire for a puncture that is less than a millimeter in size.
I drove on that tire for nearly a year, 120km+ every day, mostly motorways without a single problem. And the same applies to the 2-3 times I did that before.

TL;DR:
Pinhole=fix it
Tear or bulge=bin it.

CiniO

sean1141 wrote: »

no need to replace tyres in pairs

Legally in Ireland - no need.
But I can't imagine driving on two different tyres on left and right side.

dr.fuzzenstein

CiniO wrote: »

Legally in Ireland - no need.
But I can't imagine driving on two different tyres on left and right side.

I have replaced tires one at a time, but only if they where pretty new and fubared and only with an identical tire.
Would never have odd tires on a car, even though it's legal here and was in Germany last time I checked.
The only stipulation I remember from Germany is that it was illegal to have cross-ply and radials on the same axle.:)
I have bought cars in Ireland with four odd tires on them, maybe the previous owner thought if he ever got into a sticky situation, one of the tires will have the right handling characteristics to get him out of trouble!:D

Nissan doctor

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Be that as it may, but after I punctured my two week old tire with a piece of bramble, I was really glad that I could get it repaired.
Small pinhole=no structural damage, since the fabric holding the tire together would be largely unscathed and the patch only has to keep the air from escaping.
Of course as soon as there is anything bigger than a pinhole, like a tear or even a bulge, it's fcuked and needs to be binned.
But no fcuking way would I bin a two week old tire for a puncture that is less than a millimeter in size.
I drove on that tire for nearly a year, 120km+ every day, mostly motorways without a single problem. And the same applies to the 2-3 times I did that before.

TL;DR:
Pinhole=fix it
Tear or bulge=bin it.

Is it likely that you'll have a problem with a tiny pinhole?..no, but the reason I say that professionals won't repair it is because it isn't the correct practice so if someone repairs a tyre in a way that guidelines and manufacturers say it shouldn't be repaired then they are accepting 100% liability for anything which may happen.

What's annoying about that situation is that if one place says they won't repair for the above reason and the customer goes somewhere else and they do repair it, the customer then thinks that the first place was wrong when, in fact, its the other way around.

dr.fuzzenstein

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Is it likely that you'll have a problem with a tiny pinhole?..no, but the reason I say that professionals won't repair it is because it isn't the correct practice so if someone repairs a tyre in a way that guidelines and manufacturers say it shouldn't be repaired then they are accepting 100% liability for anything which may happen.

What's annoying about that situation is that if one place says they won't repair for the above reason and the customer goes somewhere else and they do repair it, the customer then thinks that the first place was wrong when, in fact, its the other way around.

Sure thing.
Personally I wouldn't blame them if they didn't and in the unlikely event of a blowout I wouldn't come crying back to them, other than to purchase a new tire (or two).;)

Nissan doctor

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Sure thing.
Personally I wouldn't blame them if they didn't and in the unlikely event of a blowout I wouldn't come crying back to them, other than to purchase a new tire (or two).;)

People(perhaps not you personally) will say that until something happens, then they will be looking for someone to blame.

dr.fuzzenstein

Nissan doctor wrote: »

People(perhaps not you personally) will say that until something happens, then they will be looking for someone to blame.

They always will, it's in the culture. I've fallen over my own feet and hit my head. Who do I blame/sue. Can't stand that. Won't even go into the ridiculous amounts of money handed out by Irish courts over the tiniest scratch. The judges must be getting a cut one is tempted to think.
What happened at the time, my car needed the full set of 4 and I gave the tire place my last few bucks.
Two weeks later drive over a piece of bramble and it actually penetrated the sidewall of the tire. No way did I have the money for a replacement, not with the usual other bills, electricity, shopping, etc...
My only option was to go for the repair, because the space saver won't go forever.
Really no option here, maybe it's not the done thing, but was glad it could be fixed.
And to me, still preferable to a part-worn, non matching second hand tire.

gofaster_s13

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Sure thing.
Personally I wouldn't blame them if they didn't and in the unlikely event of a blowout I wouldn't come crying back to them, other than to purchase a new tire (or two).;)

You might not go crying back to the tyre shop looking for compensation but your insurance company will if you try to claim for damages caused by the after affects of a tyre blow out or if someone claims against you for damages if you hit them after the blowout. A tyre sidewall repair is an automatic NCT/DOE fail and is therefore illegal.

dr.fuzzenstein

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

You might not go crying back to the tyre shop looking for compensation but your insurance company will if you try to claim for damages caused by the after affects of a tyre blow out or if someone claims against you for damages if you hit them after the blowout. A tyre sidewall repair is an automatic NCT/DOE fail and is therefore illegal.

OK, you can buy me a new tire the next time I have a pinhole in the sidewall.
I don't care, I did it before, I'll do it again and this is the kind of "Won't someone please think of the children hysteria" I have grown to hate in recent times.
Also:
Source or GTFO.

gofaster_s13

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Source or GTFO.

LGV DOE test manual pg61, category: tyre condition
NCT manual pg60, category: tyre condition

Both state that sidewall repairs are a fail item.

Bridgestone also say sidewalls should not be repaired. pg 12 and 13 in their tyre manual.

http://www.bridgestonetire.com/PDFs/GM_OE_Warranty_EN.pdf

Is that enough sources ??

dr.fuzzenstein

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

LGV DOE test manual pg61, category: tyre condition
NCT manual pg60, category: tyre condition

Both state that sidewall repairs are a fail item.

Bridgestone also say sidewalls should not be repaired. pg 12 and 13 in their tyre manual.

http://www.bridgestonetire.com/PDFs/GM_OE_Warranty_EN.pdf

Is that enough sources ??

You mean the bit that says

7: Repair plug fitted in the sidewall

Yes, a plug should not be fitted to the sidewall, any fool would know that.
Internal patches are not listed as a fail and even if they where, the tester would have to take off the tire and examine it internally.
DOE? Don't care, don't drive a van.
So to recap:
Maybe not best practice, maybe some places would refuse to carry out such a repair, but not illegal and if I had to, I'd do it again.
I don't like doing it, but in my situation, where I already have to cut several quite sizable and some quite questionable corners, every penny counts.

gofaster_s13

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

You mean the bit that says



Yes, a plug should not be fitted to the sidewall, any fool would know that.
Internal patches are not listed as a fail .

Internal patchs should never be used on there own.

dr.fuzzenstein

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

Internal patchs should never be used on there own.

That makes sense in the threaded area of the tire. Anyways, no consensus over this will ever be reached, I'm not going to bin a new €70+ tire over a tiny pinhole.
You may be annoyed at the idea, but in the end it's not illegal and if it where, I don't see the Gards by the roadside pulling tires of cars to check whether their tires are incorrectly patched and neither will the NCT.
So it's grey enough for me to go ahead and do it anyway.
And switch off those bloody FF!