You Expect Me To Believe In (a) God After This?

furiousox

I know there's plenty of bad things happening right now (Syria comes to mind) but this struck a chord with me, maybe because I'm a parent.
22 children killed in a coach crash (part of a christian group)
God's will, eh?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17362643

MrPudding

furiousox wrote: »

I know there's plenty of bad things happening right now (Syria comes to mind) but this struck a chord with me, maybe because I'm a parent.
22 children killed in a coach crash (part of a christian group)
God's will, eh?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17362643

• God works in mysterious ways.
• We cannot hope to understand the reasons for things happening.
• They are in a better place now.
• God called them to himself, as is his right.
• Free will caused the crash.
• It is Adam & Eve's fault.
• The gheys did it.
• God is only responsible for the good things. The devil / humans are responsible for the bad.

I think that is most of them take your pick.


MrP

Auguste Comte

MrPudding wrote: »

• God works in mysterious ways.
• We cannot hope to understand the reasons for things happening.
• They are in a better place now.
• God called them to himself, as is his right.
• Free will caused the crash.
• It is Adam & Eve's fault.
• The gheys did it.
• God is only responsible for the good things. The devil / humans are responsible for the bad.

I think that is most of them take your pick.


MrP

Don't forget, suffer little children. Children suffering is important to god, apparently.

MrPudding

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Don't forget suffer little children. Children suffering is important to god, apparently.

Dammit. How could I forget that one.

On a more serious note, what an awful tragedy.

MrP

Auguste Comte

MrPudding wrote: »

On a more serious note, what an awful tragedy.

MrP

Heart breaking.

prestigio1977

It's very sad, my sympathy goes out to their families. It's nothing to do with God, it's an accident, pure and simple, they happen every day.

MrPudding

prestigio1977 wrote: »

It's very sad, my sympathy goes out to their families. It's nothing to do with God, it's an accident, pure and simple, they happen every day.

The only way this has nothing to do with god is if god did not exist.

MrP

Dades

That is heart-wrenching stuff.

KTRIC

I couldn't bring myself to read the article, could feel the tears welling up in my eyes.

I really doubt that's if there was a God that its plan for these children (all of them) was death in a horrific crash !!! If there was a God then there would have been some sort of divine intervention to stop this, but there wasn't so it just re-enforces my lack of belief.

OldNotWIse

MrPudding wrote: »

• God works in mysterious ways.
• We cannot hope to understand the reasons for things happening.
• They are in a better place now.
• God called them to himself, as is his right.
• Free will caused the crash.
• It is Adam & Eve's fault.
• The gheys did it.
• God is only responsible for the good things. The devil / humans are responsible for the bad.

I think that is most of them take your pick.


MrP

Couldn't have said it better myself. Am sick of listening to this claptrap peddled by bible bashers. Read yesterday in the paper about a poor little two year old girl who died after falling from her bunk... a family friend buried her husband last week, left alone with three children under the age of 4... We can go on and on.

What compounds the issue for me is that when something good or wonderful happens, we are told its "a miracle from God". Oh right so, he's just responsible for the good stuff...not the bad...hmmmm

Zamboni

Dades wrote: »

That is heart-wrenching stuff.

Aye. It really is. Terrible loss for those parents.
It's the type of thing that makes you remember that your continued existence is purely arbitrary and to value it and use it whilst you can.

MrPudding

Dades wrote: »

That is heart-wrenching stuff.

Whilst the parent of the kids must be in an awful place right now, I also have a huge amount of sympathy for those people working on the accident. I cannot imagine how horrific it must be to be pulling the bodies of kids, even kids you don't know, from the wreckage of a crash like this.

So, yes, how can a loving god and merciful god allow children to die like this is a good question. But for me the question of how he can put other people in a position where they have to go through the trauma of dealing with something like this is equally valid. I wonder what evil did the emergency service personnel perpetrate to justify the horror they are now facing along with future mental health problems dealing with something like this inevitably brings.

MrP

OldNotWIse

MrPudding wrote: »

Whilst the parent of the kids must be in an awful place right now, I also have a huge amount of sympathy for those people working on the accident. I cannot imagine how horrific it must be to be pulling the bodies of kids, even kids you don't know, from the wreckage of a crash like this.

So, yes, how can a loving god and merciful god allow children to die like this is a good question. But for me the question of how he can put other people in a position where they have to go through the trauma of dealing with something like this is equally valid. I wonder what evil did the emergency service personnel perpetrate to justify the horror they are now facing along with future mental health problems dealing with something like this inevitably brings.

MrP

Good post. I dont know if people need to do evil in order for bad things to happen to them. Bad things (and good things) just happen. Some of us are lucky, some of us are not. I was brought up to believe that we live, we die. Life is not necessarliy "fair" or "unfair". We are not always "rewarded" or "punished". It just is as it is. I think teaching our children the concept that good deeds are rewarded and bad deeds are punished only leads to disappointment. Much easier if you just accept that life can be good or bad, but not necessarily fair. We are not living in some kind of fairy tale with a god in the sky smiting us for stepping out of line and patting us on the back when we do something good.

amacachi

Tried to tell yous to stop taking the gays' side but yous wouldn't listen.

RichieC

Tragic not really acceptable in my eyes to use it for bludgeoning the already obvious point of gods non existence home.

Leelaveela

Heart-breaking, really tragic accident. I don't personally believe in a god and it's fairly obvious that the OP does not either...I think it's a bit crass to bring up a really terrible incident to invoke a "Haha, Catholics are mad!" discussion.

robindch

RichieC wrote: »

not really acceptable in my eyes to use it for bludgeoning the already obvious point of gods non existence home.

+1

There mustn't have been a parent in Europe today who didn't, at the very least, twitch on hearing at the news.

Let's leave it to any of the religious who feel it's appropriate, to attempt to turn this hideous tragedy into a marketing opportunity.

furiousox

Leelaveela wrote: »

...I think it's a bit crass to bring up a really terrible incident to invoke a "Haha, Catholics are mad!" discussion.

Not my intention.
I just woke up this morning, read the news story and felt sad.
It was on my mind all through the day, I still feel sad about it.
Maybe it's on my mind because I'm a parent too.
I guess a lot of the parent's of the children who were on that bus are also questioning god's existence right now.

OldNotWIse

Leelaveela wrote: »

Heart-breaking, really tragic accident. I don't personally believe in a god and it's fairly obvious that the OP does not either...I think it's a bit crass to bring up a really terrible incident to invoke a "Haha, Catholics are mad!" discussion.

I dont think the OP was necessarily using this tragedy to point score, I think he was actually just genuinely wondering - how could a god let something like this happen? In the same way that someone praising the lord for perceived miracles would not be accused of using the miracles to point score against non-believers.

sbsquarepants

There must be at least that many kids die every minute of every day from a whole host of entirely preventable causes. It just appears more shocking cos these poor kids were european.
It's a terrible tragedy, but unfortunately it's far from unique.

Joey the lips

To the op. Posting in this section is hardly going to get disagreement. Perhaps you should ask god why.

Its easy to find reasons not to believe in god.

Its had to find reasons not to question god.

If your religious you will know that just before his death his own son questioned his judgement.

Its right to question...

If god was truly influencing and in our lives we would be all pure. This is not the case.

Dades

Leelaveela wrote: »

I think it's a bit crass to bring up a really terrible incident to invoke a "Haha, Catholics are mad!" discussion.

I didn't see the post as having that intent. A knee-jerk response if anything, with the enormity of people's loss yet to kick in.

It actually reminded me of one of the catalysts for me to actually think about God's existence many years ago - a 2 year old electocuted by fairy lights on Christmas Eve.

If a tragedy happened somewhere and some religious fundamentalist whackjob said that it was God's revenge on <INSERT TARGET GROUP HERE> I reckon people on this forum would be quick enough to have a go at the nutter in question.

This is no different.

It is utterly reprehensible and shameful to use the tragic deaths of people for political point-scoring.

furiousox

As I've already said, it wasn't my intention to score points or cause offence.
If I wanted that sort of reaction I would have posted in the Christianity forum.
(Posting there never entered my mind)
Dades post above comes closest to articulating how I felt at the time.
It was an impulsive post, no agenda.
On reflection maybe too impulsive.

Fortyniner

I think many of us know how you feel, OP, having to come to terms with such an appalling loss of young lives while being told how good, kind, all-seeing and all powerful their god is.

I get similarly frustrated when their god is praised for the 'miracle' of saving the odd individual in a disaster which has killed and maimed many others. It's the utter nonsense of it

Mark Hamill

Deleted User wrote: »

If a tragedy happened somewhere and some religious fundamentalist whackjob said that it was God's revenge on <INSERT TARGET GROUP HERE> I reckon people on this forum would be quick enough to have a go at the nutter in question.

This is no different.

Generally I see such nutjobs being debunked with logical arguments, rather than simply being reprehended for saying something that offends.

Deleted User wrote: »

It is utterly reprehensible and shameful to use the tragic deaths of people for political point-scoring.

People should always ask the hard questions like this, a lot of the time its the only way to break through a nutjobs religious indoctrination. There are of course appropriate ways and situations to this (I think the OPs simple open post was fine, but I wouldn't suggest putting it to someone who recently lost a child in a similar way).
I do not believe that denying reality, especially in the context of death, is healthy.

Mark Hamill

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Generally I see such nutjobs being debunked with logical arguments, rather than simply being reprehended for saying something that offends.

We're agreed so. I debunked the OP with the logical assertion that it was reprehensible.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

People should always ask the hard questions like this....

Whatever. It wasn't asking a hard question; it was making a smart-arsed comment about the deaths of 28 people.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I think the OPs simple open post was fine...

I just think it was simple, TBH. But if you want to think making a smart-arsed comment about the deaths of 28 people is "fine", you go right ahead.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

but I wouldn't suggest putting it to someone who recently lost a child in a similar way...

Of course not. If you did, there's a risk that the someone would shout at you or give you a thump. People who have recently lost loved ones tend to be a tad sensitive that way. :rolleyes:

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I do not believe that denying reality, especially in the context of death, is healthy.

Nor do I, but that doesn't alter the fact that the opening post was, to use some technical internet jargon, more than a wee bit arsey.

Mark Hamill

Deleted User wrote: »

We're agreed so. I debunked the OP with the logical assertion that it was reprehensible.

No you got offended and reprehended him.

Deleted User wrote: »

Whatever. It wasn't asking a hard question; it was making a smart-arsed comment about the deaths of 28 people.

Smart arsed? It can't be both?

Deleted User wrote: »

I just think it was simple, TBH. But if you want to think making a smart-arsed comment about the deaths of 28 people is "fine", you go right ahead.

Simple is fine.

Deleted User wrote: »

Of course not. If you did, there's a risk that the someone would shout at you or give you a thump. People who have recently lost loved ones tend to be a tad sensitive that way. :rolleyes:

They might try, but I would avoid doing it out of empathy, rather than cowardice.

Deleted User wrote: »

Nor do I, but that doesn't alter the fact that the opening post was, to use some technical internet jargon, more than a wee bit arsey.

If you choose to it that way...

Mark Hamill

Mark Hamill wrote: »

No you got offended and reprehended him.

If the post had not been offensive, I wouldn't have gotten offended.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Smart arsed? It can't be both?

Cleverness is not the same as wisdom, and rarely trumps it.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Simple is fine.

Each to their own.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

They might try, but I would avoid doing it out of empathy, rather than cowardice.

I'll concede that one. In fairness, I think if you came under attack from a grief-stricken parent, you could probably take them. :eek:

Mark Hamill wrote: »

If you choose to it that way...

As you suggested earlier, one shouldn't deny reality.

Gingermagic

If a person is an atheist why would they ask how could god let this happen. If they don't believe in a god the question is moot.

To blame anyone or thing other than the facts is illogical even to a person who believes is a divine ???? something.

People say the things they say (as was ridiculed in previous posts)in order to ease the hurt that they are feeling to assist them in their grief......or even to try and ease anothers hurt..... the wording used to express this may be distasteful to some, but to ridicule this, only shows bitterness and a lack of understanding.

Fenian Army

Point scoring over a tragedy like this is disgusting.

Gingermagic

Gingermagic wrote: »

If a person is an atheist why would they ask how could god let this happen.

Agreed. It's a lazy way of looking at things. In fact, I've heard people go further and argue that the fact that tragic things happen is a proof of the non-existence of gods.

Dades

Fenian Army wrote: »

Point scoring over a tragedy like this is disgusting.

Deleted User wrote: »

Whatever. It wasn't asking a hard question; it was making a smart-arsed comment about the deaths of 28 people.

Smart-arsed? Really?

Seriously, did either of you read the response of the OP to the original suggestion that the comment shouldn't have been made, or are you all too busy being offended?

Dades

Actually, I think thread is better closed.

In parting I just want to say knowing the OP's background this was assuredly not a "point-scoring" exercise. The OP, like me and others here is a parent for whom this type of tragedy prompts emotional responses.