Tax exams whilst doing ACA audit training contract

lavine7

I'm in the final year of my undergrad and after a masters, I will be beginning an ACA training contract in audit.
I have an interest in tax and see getting a qualification such as the AITI one as something I think that could be beneficial for my future career, which I would see as being in industry.
As I'll have Part 1 exemptions (accounting masters in DCU), I'm considering taking Part 2 of AITI in my first year of training contract as my FAEs will not begin until year 2.
After that, I plan taking a 12 month break having completed Part 2 of AITI to go back and focus on FAEs.
In the final year of my contract I would plan to go back and complete Part 3 of the AITI exams. All resulting in having both ACA and AITI by the end of my training contract (assuming all passes along the way!).

Does this seems a viable plan and been attempted before? Does anyone have any recommendations/opinions on the above?
It seems a lot of work but I believe coming out of a training contract with both qualifications would be highly valuable to me for furthering my career.

All comments appreciated.

martin2012

lavine7 wrote: »

I'm in the final year of my undergrad and after a masters, I will be beginning an ACA training contract in audit.
I have an interest in tax and see getting a qualification such as the AITI one as something I think that could be beneficial for my future career, which I would see as being in industry.
As I'll have Part 1 exemptions (accounting masters in DCU), I'm considering taking Part 2 of AITI in my first year of training contract as my FAEs will not begin until year 2.
After that, I plan taking a 12 month break having completed Part 2 of AITI to go back and focus on FAEs.
In the final year of my contract I would plan to go back and complete Part 3 of the AITI exams. All resulting in having both ACA and AITI by the end of my training contract (assuming all passes along the way!).

Does this seems a viable plan and been attempted before? Does anyone have any recommendations/opinions on the above?
It seems a lot of work but I believe coming out of a training contract with both qualifications would be highly valuable to me for furthering my career.

All comments appreciated.

Did you do the masters in accounting at DCU?!!! In need some information .....

That's a great path that you chose , friend of mine just did the same and at the year end of his contract he got both qualifications )
He's now working in industry on 60k per yr.

Tell me how you found the MSc in accounting? I've heard lots of things about the course, such as workload & failure rate!!

lavine7

Has anyone any information on the tax qualification that the ICAI offer?

My feeling is that the AITI qualification is held in higher esteem.

Odats

lavine7 wrote: »

Has anyone any information on the tax qualification that the ICAI offer?

My feeling is that the AITI qualification is held in higher esteem.

It's the Chartered Tax Consultant that Chartered Accountants Ireland offer. It is relatively new since 2010 and afaik is only open to members of the Institute.

All details are on the website. The AITI is the more established qualification and the exams are not easy to pass.

I am ACA and if I was to do a tax qualification in the morning it would be the AITI exams and not the Chartered Tax Consultant as it is the most recognised of the two.

Odats

lavine7 wrote: »

I'm in the final year of my undergrad and after a masters, I will be beginning an ACA training contract in audit.
I have an interest in tax and see getting a qualification such as the AITI one as something I think that could be beneficial for my future career, which I would see as being in industry.
As I'll have Part 1 exemptions (accounting masters in DCU), I'm considering taking Part 2 of AITI in my first year of training contract as my FAEs will not begin until year 2.
After that, I plan taking a 12 month break having completed Part 2 of AITI to go back and focus on FAEs.
In the final year of my contract I would plan to go back and complete Part 3 of the AITI exams. All resulting in having both ACA and AITI by the end of my training contract (assuming all passes along the way!).

Does this seems a viable plan and been attempted before? Does anyone have any recommendations/opinions on the above?
It seems a lot of work but I believe coming out of a training contract with both qualifications would be highly valuable to me for furthering my career.

All comments appreciated.

Hi OP,

The route you are talking about would be the route most people with a masters in accounting would take when doing their FAE's and AITI in Big 4 tax trainee training contracts.

Mind you I don't know if your firm would pay the course fees for the tax exams as you will be an audit trainee. My advise would be to talk to your training firm on this.

lavine7

Thanks for your input.
In relation to the course fees, these were something I expected I would have to pay myself although I will approach my firm and see if they will offer any support towards it.

I'm aware that this is how the tax trainees will go about it, just interested to see if many audit trainees have gone down this route successfully.

tomfoolery60

It's not common but some of my peers (masters students only) have sat them while doing the ACAs as you intend. Not many of them passed however! Your firm may give you study leave and allow you to use some of your overtime to do so, providing you are sitting the exams outside of busy season. They may also pay part of the fees if you could make a business case for sitting them.

You mention you want to work in industry. To be honest, a tax qualification is only going to be of much use to you if you see yourself working in SMEs in industry after qualification. Any large firm will hire tax accountants specialising in that area for their tax.

Johnny_Fontane

tomfoolery60 wrote: »

To be honest, a tax qualification is only going to be of much use to you if you see yourself working in SMEs in industry after qualification. Any large firm will hire tax accountants specialising in that area for their tax.

The tax exams are hard with high failure rates. From a career/job finding point of view, AITI is very necessary to have if you want to go down the route of being a tax accountant/tax director/emea tax specialist etc. But as the OP said, they are looking for an accounting role in industry.

Unless you plan on definitely undertaking a career in tax, its not necessary.

The best way of furthering your career in Industry (coming from Practice), is to excel in your 3.5 year contract, try get on all the biggest audits (in Industry obviously, not FS), get first time passes and then make the right choice on your first move into industry.

For a newly qualified ACA moving into industry, it will be noted if you have your AITI, but it will not be a make or break factor (obviously unless its a tax role). The newly qualified ACA's getting the best roles, are those that have the big audit experience, show excellent communication skills and have strong academics.

smallerthanyou

^^
This. The tax exams are good to do if you really feel you can pass them and put in the hard work. A few in my intake did them, but these would be the people who wanted to at some stage move back to more rural parts of the country and thought that most smaller companies down there would require their accountant to do the tax work too. Dunno if this is the case though. Extra qualifications will never be a waste but just be sure you appreciate the work that needs to go in.

lavine7

Excellent replies guys, all appreciated!
I'm aware of the work that would be involved but having developed an interest in tax having had a core module in it this year, I think I would have the necessary motivation to keep at it.
I understand what is said about large companies v SME's and while both are of interest to me, I would see myself going into a FA or FC role hopefully in a large firm upon ACA qualification.
Perhaps a number of years down the road there is a chance for looking for something 'down the country' as it was put but not for maybe 10 years I would imagine.
But, having an interest in both areas, maybe my career will lead me down that way sooner as I think I would like to have responsibility for the whole financial side of a company as an FD of an SME perhaps.

I'm thinking it will open more doors for me after my training contract and enhance my chances of landing a good post-qualification position which will be my first real step on the career ladder as everything will have been pretty much planned and structured up onto that point!

The defining factor could be if I gain the support of my firm, even from the point of view that I will have lectures to attend when overtime is required. Obviously I would be doing the summer course to avoid this situation as much as possible.

Hannah2011

Hi there - I am currently sitting Part 3 AITI, don't under estimate them, they are extremely difficult and require alot of study. Much more than accountancy. But if you have an interest in tax (and lets face it, you wouldn't be doing them otherwise) they are very worth while.
I would watch out for your work load though! Why are you doing a masters in accountancy and then doing ACA, would you not go straight into ACA?
Just one other thing, I'm not sure you can take a year off between part 2's and 3's, you'd need to check that out. There are alot of rules around the way you have to sit them.

Best of luck!

Hannah2011

Oh and one other thing, most of the large firms will encourage you to do the tax exams I'm sure, but you may run into difficulty getting study leave for both ACA and AITI in the one year!

lavine7

Thanks for your reply! How are you going about it? Are you training through a tax contract?
I can imagine there's serious work involved in the final set alright but as you said, it's not so bad if you have an interest in the area.
Tbh, the masters is a no brainer in allowing me to pursue the AITI during my training contract. With no masters, I wouldn't even be fully exempt for Part 1 AITI and have CAP 2 still to do. With it, I have years 1 and 3 of my contract to complete Part 2 and 3 while taking a 'break' in between to do FAEs:
8.10 Students may take a break of up to 24 months from 30 November in the year in which they received their Examination results for one Part and the commencement of the study course for the next Part. During this break, a student must retain his/her student membership status and pay all related student subscriptions
Just looking into the idea for the moment, I'll wait till the end of my masters and approach my firm with the idea before I think about taking it further.

Mr. Incognito

I trained in Tax in a Big 4 and then hopped back into Law.

Most of the trainees there would have done the accountancy exams and AITI and alternated years, most were exempt from the first sittings for both or were able to do both first sittings in one year and then took the next 4 years knocking down part 2 and 3 of both.

Tax is seen as harder. The Chartered Tax exams are new and have no authority in industry or practice yet until one sees the calibre of the graduates.

The AITI now have mutual recognition in the UK and have been rebranded as the Registered Tax Consultant Qualification. I am unsure if the Chartered Tax exams have this recognition yet.

They are excellent exams not only for knowledge but the exams re-teach you how to interpret legislation and not just rote learn so you re-learn how to interpret an answer from the source which has been invaluable in my law career subsequently.

Morte

I asked about doing this at my interview. They were negative about it and I didn't pursue it when I joined as I fancied a break after the masters. From their point of view it's not just the time off for lectures. Summer may be quiet but lots of the other trainees will be off on study leave. They may be counting on you being available for what work does come in.

You'll have a fair amount of tax studied from your masters and the FAEs. If you add the IATI on top of this you'll have a massive theoretical knowledge of tax but no practical. This will obviously be a major stumbling block if you wanted to try for a tax job.

For SMEs a lot of the tax work the accountant will do will be very basic. VAT returns and the like. And a lot of them will hire accountancy firms to prepare the year end accounts and tax anyway. You will be expected to have knowledge of tax but you'll have that from ICAI already. IATI will be overkill for what you'll be doing. A good comparison would be somebody with a Phd applying to be a secondary teacher. It's certainly impressive but it's so far beyond what you need it's only a nice bonus as Johnny_Fontane said.

For a "normal" career route if you do want to spend the next three years studying every moment of your spare time I'd recommend learning a language. You'd certainly pick up a decent level in it if you spent the same time as you would on tax. Doing the tax exams is a massive commitment.

If you're very interested in tax and would think about working in the area when you'd qualify I'd ask in the firm if you could spend a short time in the tax department to get a feel for it. If you like it you could maybe start the tax exams in year 3 then. I wouldn't recommend doing them though unless you think you'd like to work in the area.

Dylan1983

Hi there,

I’ve read down through the thread of comments and there seem to be some very strong opinions.

Just to give you an idea of where I am coming from, I’ll give you my background. I did the accounting masters in Smurfit, the MAcc and entered my training contract in the same position you are in now. I went into FS audit with one of the Big 4 firms. At the time I had a fallow year where I had to wait until the second year of my contract to sit my FAEs. At the time I considered doing the AITI exams but upon advice of others, similar to that you are getting now, I was told Part 3’s are very difficult to pass if you don’t work in tax and you don’t really need the tax qualification etc. etc.

I decided against sitting the tax exams and focused on my training contract. However, it did play on my mind that I had unfinished business. 2 years post completing my articles I decided I actually did want a tax qualification. This coincided with the launch of the CTC course in Chartered Accountants Ireland. I decided to do this course.

Picking up on the negative comments from “Mr. Incognito”, these are obviously an uninformed opinions.

Firstly, “Tax is seen as harder.”, by who and on what basis? How are the two courses comparable? Consider that this is a comment from someone that has not sat the ACA exams.

Secondly, “The Chartered Tax exams are new and have no authority in industry or practice yet until one sees the calibre of the graduates.”, again this is another uninformed opinion. I know for a fact that KPMG, PwC and Deloitte are on board with the CTC syllabus, teaching methods and exams. All course materials have been peer reviewed by members of these firms to evaluate the standard of the course in comparison with the AITI. Based on these peer reviews these firms now offer their tax trainees the option to particiapte in either the CTC or AITI exams and hold both qualifications in the same esteem. As well as this, the CTC course also has partnerships in industry with Oracle, KBC Bank, Paddy Power, Aer Lingus and ESB to name a few, where internal tax teams have nominated and sponsored employees to participate on the CTC programme.

I completed the CTC course in December 2011. I too considered if perhaps the recognition for the course would be there, but this is definitely something that will come in time. I recently attended an alumni dinner for the MAcc in Smurfit celebrating the 30th year anniversary of the course since it was first launched and spoke to people who were the first students on the MAcc programme and it reminded me that all good things have to start somewhere and I am confident with the support of Chartered Accountants Ireland and the team working on the CTC programme, the recognition of this qualification will grow and grow over the coming years.

I cannot comment on the AITI experience and will not degrade it, however I can speak for my ACA and CTC experience. The lecturers, tutors for the case studies, the examiners as well as the support staff for the CTC course are first class. Not alone this, but the team behind the course, that have spent many years developing the materials and are very commited to the future success of the course are a team of tax professionals that are rated very highly by their peers.

Also, just to pick up on “Mr. Incognito’s” comment on the calibre the graduates from CTC, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind over the calibre of graduates from the course. Having had the opportunity to get to know the majority of them they are all highly intelligent and well accomplished individuals. The CTC course is by no means a tick the box course, it requires hard work and a lot of commitment, but as with everything, anything that is worthwhile is hard work.

Ultimately, the decision is yours. My advice is, if you want to do a tax qualification, do it. I know plenty of masters students that used the years either side of their FAEs to qualify in tax and they did so without any problems. You are obviously a high achiever and a hard worker having done the masters in DCU, if you want to do a professional tax qualification, I’m sure you’ll achieve it.

As to whether to choose CTC or AITI, that again is your decision but speaking as someone that has done the CTC course, this is an excellent course. The support is fantastic. The teaching process is very hands on and very practical and not alone teaches you how to navigate the legistion and provides an understanding of tax issues, but it is also excellent at developing key professional skills and developing your commercial awareness. I cannot recommend the course strongly enough.

I hope this helps you with your decision.

Morte

Do you mind if I ask, how does the CTC fit into your career? As it is now or where you want to go. Do you do much tax work or are you planning to?

Muzi5434

I started my training contract in October 2011 and had a Masters in Acc from Smurfit so decided to do the tax qualification from CTC.

The seniors and managers were very supportive and I received some time off for study as well (nothing major).

I just passed stage 2 and thought it was a very good idea to do them.

They helped me in the audit department as follows:

1. Testing payroll was easier for me as I had done the CTC lectures and needed little guidance from seniors as opposed to others
2. VAT issues arise while testing COS and the tax side of things makes you understand better
3. While auditing a particular company I was given a section of losses to review and that's where my tax knowledge came handy and I was able to quote from the legislation as to what treatment was applied and why.

There were more instances as well but the above three were the biggest ones.

I would highly recommend doing CTC or AITI if you want to in first year of the training contract. It was hard at times as I'm in the audit department but overall was very good.