Is there an effective alternative to intervals?

Donelson

I have a problem, at the mere thought of intervals my stomach cramps and if I'm honest I dread when I see them on my weekly schedule
Could I replace them with some hill runs and some striding and bounding?
if I did laps of my local hill for an hour would that cut the mustard? Or do interval develop more than just legs/core strength?

theboyblunder

If you do hill reps right you dread them more than intervals

Intervals (in the traditional sense - depending on distance, reps and recovery etc) primarily aid in getting your current VO2 max closer to its genetically determined maximum value. They help with lots of other stuff too of course.

There are coaches on here who might help you, but I suspect that the short answer to your queston is that the alternative to intervals (in some form or another) is to not reach your potential.....

Donelson

How about, if I ran up and down the stairs for an hour, I'd try anything at this stage.

ddel

What type of session is turning your stomach? People rate anything from 10x200m to 10x2k as intervals. Very different type of agonies. If it's the standard 5-6 x 1k with 3 mins recovery, are you doing them too fast. That is, faster than 5k race pace.

donothoponpop

You should feel sick the day before intervals, like throwing up during them, and be counting the hours until next weeks, once they are done. Running up and down the stairs for an hour, or hillwork, shouldn't feel any easier. You may as well ask if you could just run the intervals slower.

Try mixing some hill repeats one week, intervals the next, unstructured fartlek the next; if your dread of them is causing you to skip them. But don't skimp on the intensity.

Donelson

I'm (trying) to follow the furman first 10km plan, which has intervals from 200m to 1600m, and to date anything over 400m is a guaranteed cramp. I've thought about call this cramps bluff, but I'm need to be very very close to home. I can cover 5km at a pace 10 sec out so slower than interval pace.

(this was a reply to ddel)

Donelson

donothoponpop wrote: »

You should feel sick the day before intervals, like throwing up during them, and be counting the hours until next weeks, once they are done. Running up and down the stairs for an hour, or hillwork, shouldn't feel any easier. You may as well ask if you could just run the intervals slower.

Try mixing some hill repeats one week, intervals the next, unstructured fartlek the next; if your dread of them is causing you to skip them. But don't skimp on the intensity.

I hear what your saying, I'm just fed up of having a terrible half done session in the middle of the week , I'll keep plugging away.

nerraw1111

Donelson wrote: »

I hear what your saying, I'm just fed up of having a terrible half done session in the middle of the week , I'll keep plugging away.

You might be doing the intervals too hard/fast. The idea is that when you finish the session, you should be able to do one more rep in theory.

But you should also be v close to the edge. It's a fine balance. Sometimes I get it wrong and end up with uneven splits. But if you are regularly only managing to do half the session, slow each rep
down a bit.

Intervals aren't necessary from completing a 10km point of view.

Slogger Jogger

donothoponpop wrote: »

You should feel sick the day before intervals, like throwing up during them, and be counting the hours until next weeks, once they are done. Running up and down the stairs for an hour, or hillwork, shouldn't feel any easier. You may as well ask if you could just run the intervals slower.

Try mixing some hill repeats one week, intervals the next, unstructured fartlek the next; if your dread of them is causing you to skip them. But don't skimp on the intensity.

Hey Cyclist/Swimmer, what would you know ?

drquirky

Think its called HTFU

Clearlier

If you want to avoid intervals then you'll need to follow a different training plan. You can't really substitute anything in for them. If you're just starting out running then just do a google search for other training plans and pick one that you like.

P.S. In the longer term the amount of training you do is the key to your performance levels. Plans that will get you to "your best 10k ever in 6 weeks" etc. are not what you're looking for.

P.P.S. In the very end most (but not all) people need intervals to peak.

token56

I'm not exactly sure how you are doing the intervals but would Fartlek runs be possible?

huskerdu

I am not hearly as experienced or as fast as a lot of the people who have replied but I do know what you are going through.

Intervals are hard but they are very effective.
I know I am stating the obvious, but hard sessions may not be fun, but they improve your strength as a runner .

If the intervals sessions are making you so miserable that they are taking any joy out of running, I would strongly suggest that you ease up a little.

Do your intervals a little slower and do a few less. Get back to the balance that the session is hard, but not torture and you feel good afterwards and glad you pushed yourself.

You will still be building up strength and improving but at a pace that suits you.

tunguska

Are you saying that when you do intervals you get bad stomach cramps? Or is that the thoughts of them causes you anxiety? If its the latter then I'd look into the reasons why you feel so anxious, its our own thoughts about a situation that create the problems, not the situation itself. So the chances are you're winding yourself up.
I wouldnt go down the avoidance route, that wont solve anything, face it head on.

Donelson

tunguska wrote: »

Are you saying that when you do intervals you get bad stomach cramps? Or is that the thoughts of them causes you anxiety? If its the latter then I'd look into the reasons why you feel so anxious, its our own thoughts about a situation that create the problems, not the situation itself. So the chances are you're winding yourself up.
I wouldnt go down the avoidance route, that wont solve anything, face it head on.

The dread is definitely in my head, but the cramps are real.
It's not an out and out pace thing as I'll hit these pacing during my short tempo runs, I think it might be the sudden acceleration/effort. I could try starting slow finishing fast but I'm not sure if that would spoil the interval?

Donelson

token56 wrote: »

I'm not exactly sure how you are doing the intervals but would Fartlek runs be possible?

I'm thinking this too at the moment, maybe if I started from a jogging start I won't find them so bad, I'll definitely give it a go.

doughef

Hey OP.

Running a few years myself but only recently joined a club.
yip.. the oul intervals are not fun. .

I found I was one of the last home after every run and although in theory your meant to give yourself approx 2 mins recovery I was starting off with the group again and just slipping back further and further...

so.. I started to take my full 2 mins and let the main group run ahead and now I'm finding it a little easier to keep up..


no bother to ye

tunguska

Donelson wrote: »

The dread is definitely in my head, but the cramps are real.
It's not an out and out pace thing as I'll hit these pacing during my short tempo runs, I think it might be the sudden acceleration/effort. I could try starting slow finishing fast but I'm not sure if that would spoil the interval?

No the optimum way to run intervals is to keep the pace constant.
The way I run them is by breaking the interval into 200s. Today for example I was doing miles at I-pace. The night before I did these I'd have a look at what time I'd need to hit the 200 splits at, so what I ended up doing was basically a series of 200m time trials. Its kind of over whelming to think about the session as a whole, but breaking it down into 200s is very managable, also keeps me focused so that I dont lose concetration and lose a second here or there.

metamagical

Training is about developing your mental as well as your physical abilities - intervals are great for raising your VO2 max and lactic threshold, but also for raising your ability to cope with the discomfort of running at speed or when you're fatigued. If you ever want to race, it's essential to be able to keep the pace high when you're knackered, or pick it up to close a gap or sprint for a finish; intervals will toughen you up for both. If you do them right and often enough, you're better able to ignore the discomfort and concentrate on speed and flow.

I still get THE FEAR before a speed session, but I've tried to learn to harness it productively, in the same way that race nerves can be used to improve performance. I do the same as Tunguska - break the intervals up to make them easier to cope with. For longer intervals up to a mile, I'll think of them as laps of the track, and for shorter ones, 200s or even 100s. For instance, in 800s, the first 200 is about feeling strong, the second about flow, the third about looking forward to the last bloody 200, and the final 200 about hanging in for the line.

Having said that, cramps are a different thing entirely: if you're getting them, you're dehydrated, or running too hard when not warmed up properly.

spurscormac

tunguska wrote: »

No the optimum way to run intervals is to keep the pace constant.
The way I run them is by breaking the interval into 200s. Today for example I was doing miles at I-pace. The night before I did these I'd have a look at what time I'd need to hit the 200 splits at, so what I ended up doing was basically a series of 200m time trials. Its kind of over whelming to think about the session as a whole, but breaking it down into 200s is very managable, also keeps me focused so that I dont lose concetration and lose a second here or there.

I do the same breaking it down to sections trying to concentrate on maintaining a steady pace.
I used to split it into 100s, but haven't had to do this so much since I got my gps watch, instead I now just monitor the pace, but certainly still break it down in my head to sections of the track, 5 x200 for kms, etc.

donothoponpop

Donelson wrote: »

I'm (trying) to follow the furman first 10km plan, which has intervals from 200m to 1600m, and to date anything over 400m is a guaranteed cramp. I've thought about call this cramps bluff, but I'm need to be very very close to home. I can cover 5km at a pace 10 sec out so slower than interval pace.

(this was a reply to ddel)

Just to follow on from this, I'm also following a FIRST 10k plan, and someone knowledgeable on my log suggested that the intervals were (in his opinion) a little on the fast side. Perhaps this is a part of the the FIRST ethos, where you should be making gains on only three runs a week.

In any case, I know I had to actually tell myself out loud today to just get the fecking intervals done, so much was I dreading them. They hurt all right, but were over soon enough, and I'm sure of the benefit accrued from them. So there is a case for HTFU and just get them done.

On the other hand, if you are actually in pain from the thought of them, and then missing the session, maybe the FIRST program isn't for you? I'm no expert, but I know FIRST emphasizes 3 short key weekly sessions with pain. There are alternatives that would focus on higher, slower, milage; that might be more suitable to you? Bottom line is that intervals are meant to hurt, but if the hurt is so much that you end up skipping the session, it might be an idea to look at another program.

Donelson

Hi donothoponpop, it wasn't that I was skipping the sessions, I would go out with the best intentions but I'd have to stop after the first one or two with bad cramp and a real fear of soiling myself .
with there only being 3 sessions a week I felt like I was missing a lot of training. I have looked around at other plans but intervals seem to be a universal thing.
Heading out now to give them another bash, 4x800m at roughly 5km pace, and I've avoided coffee and fiber since thursday.

Donelson

I thought I'd dig up this thread, I've got this months running times and there id an article on "fast recovery workout" which I think might be an effective alternative to traditional intervals.
Essentially you run a series of fast fartlek, something like 1200m@10k pace, 100m @marathon pace, 400m @5km pace, 100m @marathon pace, for 5km+.
this would be substantial slower and with out hard start stops of traditional interval which might upset one's stomach.

cwgatling

That's a good idea (MP as recovery) but would make for a wicked hard session! 100m at MP is <30s for the likes of you.

If you think static recovery is causing you problems, you can always just jog the rest intervals. Like for 5x 1 mile, jog 400 in between for a 2-3 min rest. 10x 800m just lightly jog back 50m and wind it up as you come to the start line.

+1 on the ambitious times in the FIRST plan, d'pop. I plugged in my times and was shocked at the paces that came out.

wrstan

I would agree with a couple of posters here regarding the Furman training programmes. I followed their half marathon programme a couple of years ago and found the sessions too intensive for where I was at at the time, I just could not maintain the paces for the full session. The Furman approach is based around a smaller number of sessions each week, but with very high intensity in every session. Other more experienced runners from my club thought I was crazy trying to hit the paces that I was trying to reach.

Anyway after aggravating an injury, I abandoned the programme and reverted to a more conventional schedule. So a possible conclusion could be that the Furman programme is not for you, or maybe not for you right now. A sensible suggestion is definitely to slow the paces down a good bit and increase the recovery time and then build up the intensity.

I have heard a number of times that a good rule of thumb for interval sessions is that you should always finish feeling that you could do one more.

PS I am a strange breed who loves speed sessions and can't wait to get back on the track in spring time :cool:

wrstan

Donelson wrote: »

I thought I'd dig up this thread, I've got this months running times and there id an article on "fast recovery workout" which I think might be an effective alternative to traditional intervals.
Essentially you run a series of fast fartlek, something like 1200m@10k pace, 100m @marathon pace, 400m @5km pace, 100m @marathon pace, for 5km+.
this would be substantial slower and with out hard start stops of traditional interval which might upset one's stomach.

That session sounds very much like a "Bondarenko" devised by the Russian 10,000m runner Olga Bondarenko. In this session all recoveries are run at MP. The session is meant to be great to help marathon runners to deal with a mid race surge. Sounds like a really tough session. Apparently Bondarenko used to do multiple back to back sessions.

A quick search yielded the following: http://running-coaching.co.uk/to-finish-first-you-must-first-finish-rick-mears/

Donelson

wrstan wrote: »

Donelson wrote: »

I thought I'd dig up this thread, I've got this months running times and there id an article on "fast recovery workout" which I think might be an effective alternative to traditional intervals.
Essentially you run a series of fast fartlek, something like 1200m@10k pace, 100m @marathon pace, 400m @5km pace, 100m @marathon pace, for 5km+.
this would be substantial slower and with out hard start stops of traditional interval which might upset one's stomach.

That session sounds very much like a "Bondarenko" devised by the Russian 10,000m runner Olga Bondarenko. In this session all recoveries are run at MP. The session is meant to be great to help marathon runners to deal with a mid race surge. Sounds like a really tough session. Apparently Bondarenko used to do multiple back to back sessions.

A quick search yielded the following: http://running-coaching.co.uk/to-finish-first-you-must-first-finish-rick-mears/

very similar to the session you've link, intervals are a little longer and recovery is shorter but the structure is the same.

from the RT article, you can convert lactic acid to fuel when you drop back to below LT, so these sessions are design to improve your ability to convert lactic acid to fuel, and make you more efficient at using this fuel. I must admit I'm scratching my head about this one!

Ps: I'm going to give this a bash today (saturday) and see how I get on.

roseybear

Donelson wrote: »

Hi donothoponpop, it wasn't that I was skipping the sessions, I would go out with the best intentions but I'd have to stop after the first one or two with bad cramp and a real fear of soiling myself .
with there only being 3 sessions a week I felt like I was missing a lot of training. I have looked around at other plans but intervals seem to be a universal thing.
Heading out now to give them another bash, 4x800m at roughly 5km pace, and I've avoided coffee and fiber since thursday.

now that you've said this I don't think it's the session.. i'd say it's more anxiety and dietary.. do the intervals and bring tissue

Donelson

roseybear wrote: »

now that you've said this I don't think it's the session.. i'd say it's more anxiety and dietary.. do the intervals and bring tissue

You sir are hardcore!

I did the RT session last night and it went well. I'm going to slowly up the pace on that session for the next couple of weeks and see how I get on.

dna_leri

Donelson wrote: »

roseybear wrote: »

now that you've said this I don't think it's the session.. i'd say it's more anxiety and dietary.. do the intervals and bring tissue

You sir are hardcore!

I did the RT session last night and it went well. I'm going to slowly up the pace on that session for the next couple of weeks and see how I get on.

I think you'll find dude's a lady.

As an alternative to intervals you could try starting with something like Bilat's vVO2 intervals. Can't get the links now but google it.
Try starting with 30:30 - 30s at vVO2 pace (just slower than mile pace) then 30 at half that pace. Work up to 60:60. But figure out your vVO2 pace first.