[Heritage] DART's 30th anniversary and classic train runs

Run_to_da_hills

Mods if you could Move this to Train and Rail systems.

Its two years away but the planning and logistics of these events take quite a lot of time.

Dart’s 25th anniversary was celebrated with a kettle hauled train running several trips on a Sunday between the city center and Bray. I think it would be more appropriate to have the 30th anniversary celebrated with something that most of us would have been brought up on prior to the Dart introduction.

An A or C series Metrovic pulling a cocktail of Cravans, Parkroyals and a gen set van belching out heating steam would really make my day. The 121’s would also look the part but would have to be in a pair back to back which I believe would be impossible now as I believe there is only one left in the country.. .

I41's would also look the part but wouldn’t be appreciated as most people probably wouldn’t know the difference between them and the currently used 071’s.

The only historic railcars that are left in the country that had any significance on the Dublin suburban line would be the Class 80's which appeared briefly in the early 90's.. The AEC’s railcar section at Inchicore is a right off.and would need a miracle to get going again.

Jehuty42

No money.

Cookie_Monster

124 and 134 still exist as far as I'm aware. 134 owned by IE still with a view to preserve and 124 by the ITG (or the other way around)

Vic_08

Jehuty42 wrote: »

No money.

Then don't buy a ticket.

Run_to_da_hills

Jehuty42 wrote: »

No money.

Sponsorship, ticket sales, volunteers from RPSI / ITG etc.

Suitable serviced rolling stock already exists and is currently used on other steam heritage runs.

The only prohibited expenses I could foresee would be transporting the likes of A39 from Downpatrick back to civilization and insurance on the day.

dowlingm

Give the 8200s one last run before the scrapper?

Run_to_da_hills

dowlingm wrote: »

Give the 8200s one last run before the scrapper?

Better still have them hauled as rolling stock by a historic loco on the day and have the photo sent to the director of GEC Alstom with the middle finger pointed up.

Losty Dublin

The reality is that it would be next to impossible to do anything as you have described.

Given the severe capacity issues on the suburban network as it is, nothing beyond 2-3 trains on the day would be possible, subject to paths being available. Any of the loco's you mention would require heavy servicing passing out for traffic plus insurance which would be a significant 4 figure sum (for the one day) plus road haulage fees, also a 4 figure sum.

Also, there are few drivers passed out to drive an A or C class and no inspectors either who could do refresher courses for them. Test runs would also be needed for this, something that takes a long long time to plan out and roll out. In relation to rolling stock, there is only one RPSI carriage set currently in traffic in the Dublin area. To assume that this set will still be in traffic some years in advance is rather brave given the scope of what it will be marking.

Lastly, the general public are at best disinterested in diesel hauled tours so the allure of something like this would be rather low.

flyingsnail

Cravens would be a definite possibility, the park royals less so. A 141/121 combo would depend on what strides the RPSI makes with its mainline diesels in the next two years. As much as I would like to see it myself, I think that an A or C class returning to mainline service any time soon is pie in the sky stuff.

Cookie_Monster

flyingsnail wrote: »

Cravens would be a definite possibility, the park royals less so. A 141/121 combo would depend on what strides the RPSI makes with its mainline diesels in the next two years. As much as I would like to see it myself, I think that an A or C class returning to mainline service any time soon is pie in the sky stuff.

what about A39, running up in Downpatrick, can she not run on the main?

Run_to_da_hills

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what about A39, running up in Downpatrick, can she not run on the main?

It beats me why this perfectly running main line locomotive is confined to a theme park.

dmcronin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what about A39, running up in Downpatrick, can she not run on the main?

No! Not a snowballs chance in Hell.
Some of the reasons are outlined by Losty.

Losty Dublin

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It beats me why this perfectly running main line locomotive is confined to a theme park.

By the sounds of it, you have never visited Downpatrick nor have you any idea of the general mechanical condition of A 39 or any of the issues pertaining to running preserved railways, locomotives or rolling stock.

Judgement Day

Losty Dublin wrote: »

By the sounds of it, you have never visited Downpatrick nor have you any idea of the general mechanical condition of A 39 or any of the issues pertaining to running preserved railways, locomotives or rolling stock.

Quite possibly, but it is a damn shame that the reason that the ITG was established - to preserve and operate mainline locos on the mainline - has now been forgotten. At the end of the day Downpatrick is the only standard preservation site in the country and likely to remain so but as an authentic recreation of anything - I don't think so. Incidentally, are they ever going to get a live-in caretaker on the site or do we have to wait for more successful arson attack than previous efforts?

Losty Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

Quite possibly, but it is a damn shame that the reason that the ITG was established - to preserve and operate mainline locos on the mainline - has now been forgotten. At the end of the day Downpatrick is the only standard preservation site in the country and likely to remain so but as an authentic recreation of anything - I don't think so. Incidentally, are they ever going to get a live-in caretaker on the site or do we have to wait for more successful arson attack than previous efforts?

To try and answer you as best as possible...

ITG's main problems ones are manpower, money, H+S, location and insurance; shock horror. Given the scant resources at hand and the lack of viable homes for same, they are doing a sterling job with a small crew on both Metro Vick's. For now Downpatrick is a home to several of their fleet but track space is severely limited there as it is and only so much can be placed there. On paper, the fleet would be able to be brought back to the mainline but it's a non runner for now.

Downpatrick and Whitehead are for now are the only home for operating preserved standard gauge trains. While I won't disagree that it's not a blueprint of the railway of old, you will find almost anywhere that the same is true; it's next to impossible to have it was it was. You have to use whatever you have to hand and a lot of imagination and as things go, they are spots over Waterford and Suir in that sense.

Downpatrick don't have the resources for a permanant security member nor indeed have they any for a live in caretaker (not to mention their house). That said, there is remote CCTV for the station site and at adjacent units while new sheds are now on hand for storing carriages and locos while there are staff on hand pretty much 364 days a year. The 2003 arson attack was a huge set back but they have recovered well from it and the station building is fully restored again.

flyingsnail

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what about A39, running up in Downpatrick, can she not run on the main?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It beats me why this perfectly running main line locomotive is confined to a theme park.

While it is not impossible it would be a huge task. To run a loco on the main line the ITG would need to:

1.Create and implement a safety management system and obtain a operating licence (a huge task in itself)
2. Restore A39 ( or any locomotive) to full mainline operating standard.
3. Pay to have drivers trained to drive it
4. Pay for the insurance

That’s just a quick short list off the top of my head, I am sure there would be a lot more operational and logistical problems to be overcome as well. The unfortunate truth is that even in the good times the ITG were not able to achieve this but they still have to be commended for what they have achieved.

Even if they were to achieve this and put an operational locomotive back on the main line I think that most of the money used to do this would have to be considered dead money that you would never make back. The RPSI has shown that while there is a market for diesel hauled trains it is extremely limited compared to steam. I think it was 1999 when the ITG managed to overcome their insurance problems but they then had to run 4 tours with A39 to make back their money. I don’t think you could depend on the enthusiast market to that extent for very long, the numbers are just not there.

Niles

Insurance is a big factor when it comes to operating preserved rolling stock. With steam this can at least be offset to an extent by the fact that the general public will buy tickets for as many steam runs as you can supply... hence it easier (I wouldn't say 'easy'!) for the RPSI to pay for such insurance than it is for a diesel only group like the ITG. The ITG tried running A class tours back in the late 90s but apparently passenger numbers dwindled to the point it the insurance was not sustainable. Don't forget that diesels also attract chasers who don't bring any revenue (which they're entitled to do of course but it doesn't pay the bills).

And that was just the 90s... now there are loads of other factors, the operator must have a Safety Management System (SMS) in order to obtain an operating licence from the RSC, etc.

Personally I think in someways the ITG may have advantages in basing some of their locos at the DCDR, the likes of A39 probably gets far more use now than it would have on the mainline (maybe 3/4 tours at most). Not ideal I know but better than sitting on a siding at Inchicore for the rest of its days.

As much as it would be nice to see A/Cs out I doubt 95% of the public would even appreciate their significance.

Incidentally, the steam trips referred to in the OP were actually celebrating the 175th anniversary of the Dublin & Kingstown Railway (chartered by Dun Laoghaire & Rathdown Co.Co.), rather than for DART 25. I think IÉ held a few low key events of its own to celebrate the DART 25.

lord lucan

Niles wrote: »

Personally I think in someways the ITG may have advantages in basing some of their locos at the DCDR, the likes of A39 probably gets far more use now than it would have on the mainline (maybe 3/4 tours at most). Not ideal I know but better than sitting on a siding at Inchicore for the rest of its days.

Just to add,whilst currently suspended,where would you get the chance to drive an A or 141,certainly not on the mainline.

Losty Dublin

lord lucan wrote: »

Just to add,whilst currently suspended,where would you get the chance to drive an A or 141,certainly not on the mainline.

Nowhere for now, sadly; Downpatrick isn't offering footplate courses at the minute. If or when this changes, I'll drop you a PM with more information but don't hold your breath just yet.

ard_mhacha

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

It beats me why this perfectly running main line locomotive is confined to a theme park.

Theme park? That is a bit unnecessary considering the effort put in to the place by people who don't get paid for what they do. DCDR makes a significant contribution to the tourist industry in the area.

Apart from that, ideas on how to insure A39 to run on the main line on the back of a post card please. If you are unhappy with the provision at Downpatrick, what are you doing from your armchair to open an Irish gauge heritage railway elsewhere in Ireland?

Judgement Day wrote: »

Incidentally, are they ever going to get a live-in caretaker on the site or do we have to wait for more successful arson attack than previous efforts?

What makes you, or anyone else for that matter, think that there is not one? How often do other companies publish their security rosters for general perusal by the public (or even non-management members of their own staff)?

What exactly do you hope to achieve by publishing your speculation about a heritage railway you clearly know very little about?

dowlingm

ard_mhacha wrote: »

Theme park? That is a bit unnecessary considering the effort put in to the place by people who don't get paid for what they do. DCDR makes a significant contribution to the tourist industry in the area.

Being a theme park is not necessarily a perjorative.

ard_mhacha

dowlingm wrote: »

Being a theme park is not necessarily a perjorative.

I agree, but the context in which it was described as such came across as sarcastic.

Run_to_da_hills

ard_mhacha wrote: »

Theme park? That is a bit unnecessary considering the effort put in to the place by people who don't get paid for what they do. DCDR makes a significant contribution to the tourist industry in the area.

Apart from that, ideas on how to insure A39 to run on the main line on the back of a post card please. If you are unhappy with the provision at Downpatrick, what are you doing from your armchair to open an Irish gauge heritage railway elsewhere in Ireland?

"In common language, theme park is often used as a synonym for the term 'amusement park'. A 'theme park' is actually a distinct style of amusement park, for a theme park has landscaping, buildings, and attractions that are based on one or more specific or central themes".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusement_park

The central theme at Downpatrick would circle itself around vintage railway and live steam in the heart of Down and just like any other theme park they have their specific landscapes, buildings and attractions etc. They also advertise themselves as a suitable location for children's parties, school outings, family and corporate events etc.

I don't see anything wrong with this. In fact it would draw them a lot more business than if they just simply advertised themselves as a "railway museum". There are other historic railway locations around the country that would be more synonymous with the word "scrapyard".

Judgement Day

ard_mhacha wrote: »

Theme park? That is a bit unnecessary considering the effort put in to the place by people who don't get paid for what they do. DCDR makes a significant contribution to the tourist industry in the area.

Apart from that, ideas on how to insure A39 to run on the main line on the back of a post card please. If you are unhappy with the provision at Downpatrick, what are you doing from your armchair to open an Irish gauge heritage railway elsewhere in Ireland?


What makes you, or anyone else for that matter, think that there is not one? How often do other companies publish their security rosters for general perusal by the public (or even non-management members of their own staff)?

What exactly do you hope to achieve by publishing your speculation about a heritage railway you clearly know very little about?

I know enough about Downpatrick thank you and I know that they have had various arson attacks and break-ins and need to take steps to prevent the inevitable. By publishing my 'speculations' I continue to raise the issue and hopefully if I and others bang on for long enough it will be addressed. It is not just Downpatrick that is a concern in this regard and if you look through other threads you will see that I have raised the issue in regard to the 'so-called' National Transport Museum in Howth. There's none so blind and those that will not see!

Have a look here to see what happens at places where there's inadequate security. http://www.kellstransportmuseum.com/

Losty Dublin

Downpatrick is both a registered museum and a registered working railway with the Northern Ireland DRD, it certainly is not a theme park. Perhaps you should head up and visit it first before making any more comments on what you think it is and isn't.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

"In common language, theme park is often used as a synonym for the term 'amusement park'. A 'theme park' is actually a distinct style of amusement park, for a theme park has landscaping, buildings, and attractions that are based on one or more specific or central themes".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusement_park

The central theme at Downpatrick would circle itself around vintage railway and live steam in the heart of Down and just like any other theme park they have their specific landscapes, buildings and attractions etc. They also advertise themselves as a suitable location for children's parties, school outings, family and corporate events etc

starhillroad

Losty Dublin is correct, most of the ordinary travelling public would not realise the significance of the likes of A39 and a 141 Class. To them, and most of those who used the rail network, they are a reminder of Black and Orange banger trains.

To an enthusiast, they are beautiful. The A Class in particular has this classic look which could fit into a Thomas the Tank engine cartoon.

Some eyebrows over the windows.
Some eyes drawn in the cab windows.
A frown over the headlights
Sweat pouring down.

I can do it, I can do it, while pulling a rake of Cravens up the gullet.

As for what came before DART......my sentiments are......

We'd rather not remember what was before the DART. Although, it might be wise to show those who do not believe in rail transport what Dublin may have been without it, and persuade them that extending DART more is the future.

To give a clue on railtour costs, I believe one was staged in 2004 from Rosslare to Waterford to celebrate the end of the 121's, and the organiser, an Iarnrod Eireann employee at the time allegedly lost 4,000 Euro on the deal.

Run_to_da_hills

starhillroad wrote: »

To give a clue on railtour costs, I believe one was staged in 2004 from Rosslare to Waterford to celebrate the end of the 121's, and the organiser, an Iarnrod Eireann employee at the time allegedly lost 4,000 Euro on the deal.

Probably the equivalent to the running losses for a day on the WRC.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Downpatrick is both a registered museum and a registered working railway with the Northern Ireland DRD, it certainly is not a theme park. Perhaps you should head up and visit it first before making any more comments on what you think it is and isn't.

Stheme Park.

Judgement Day

The only good train is one that you can shave with.

starhillroad

Brilliant, but thats poor C201 after being bombed at Meigh on the Northern line.

I'm dead if I say the next line, but I just cannot resist.

Thats one annoyed Metrosexual.

Or is it a Metrovick.

"You killed Kenny loco****er"

Or is it Barry Kenny. Mind, back when B201 got bombed he was in the sperm bank while the 101 Class where in the sound bank. Now amidst the soundbites, we could do well with a new soundbank.

Don't think so. You have to know your railway history to unravel the satire here.

Quentinkrisp

The sad thing is that the general public probably won't give two ****s about something like this, which is sad really.

Cookie_Monster

Quentinkrisp wrote: »

The sad thing is that the general public probably won't give two ****s about something like this, which is sad really.

I'm interested in railway and I couldn't give two ****s frankly. 30 years is no big deal whatever way you look at it. 25 and 50, fair enough but why celebrate that the managed 30 when 25 was done only 5 years ago. Needless expese

CaptainFreedom

Niles wrote: »

Insurance is a big factor when it comes to operating preserved rolling stock. With steam this can at least be offset to an extent by the fact that the general public will buy tickets for as many steam runs as you can supply... hence it easier (I wouldn't say 'easy'!) for the RPSI to pay for such insurance than it is for a diesel only group like the ITG. The ITG tried running A class tours back in the late 90s but apparently passenger numbers dwindled to the point it the insurance was not sustainable. Don't forget that diesels also attract chasers who don't bring any revenue (which they're entitled to do of course but it doesn't pay the bills).

To add to this the RPSI had their insurance before 1989 and the Claremorris derailment and subsequent court case that followed. Basically CIE challenged the Civil Liabilities act and lost, the insurance companies forked out millions and took fright as a result to anyone wanting a similar policy to the RPSI. At the time there was a survey done on ITG tours to see if people would pay an extra £10 per ticket for A class haulage, the answer was yes, yet patronage fell away over the 4 tours that were run that year. Your damned if you do and your damned if you dont

The jungle telegraph also periodically states that the RPSI made the offer to run A39 under their umbrella, but since it would have meant signing the loco over to RPSI ownership this did not happen. ITG's long term loss, but by then their reputation with the CIE group was in ribbons

cbl593h

starhillroad wrote: »

Brilliant, but thats poor C201 after being bombed at Meigh on the Northern line.

I'm dead if I say the next line, but I just cannot resist.

Thats one annoyed Metrosexual.

Or is it a Metrovick.

"You killed Kenny loco****er"

Or is it Barry Kenny. Mind, back when B201 got bombed he was in the sperm bank while the 101 Class where in the sound bank. Now amidst the soundbites, we could do well with a new soundbank.

Don't think so. You have to know your railway history to unravel the satire here.

cbl593h

starhillroad wrote: »

To give a clue on railtour costs, I believe one was staged in 2004 from Rosslare to Waterford to celebrate the end of the 121's, and the organiser, an Iarnrod Eireann employee at the time allegedly lost 4,000 Euro on the deal.

Yeah Topnotch,grand bloke,loved by loads..............:D

CaptainFreedom

cbl593h wrote: »

Yeah Topnotch,grand bloke,loved by loads..............:D

He is toast, no worries there

Judgement Day

CaptainFreedom wrote: »

He is toast, no worries there

Am I missing something - who/what is Topnotch?

CaptainFreedom

Judgement Day wrote: »

Am I missing something - who/what is Topnotch?

Someone who was once highly thought of and has now faded into obscurity