carved limestone

quercus

found this peice of carved lime stone burried in the garden today, its about a meter long 4inch thick and 5 inches high. It is very carefully carved and alot of work went into it to make it look like single blocks with joints between. The house that stands infront of the garden is a council house100 years old and built of brick and rubble stone, nothing as fancy as this stone at all, and the previous buildings on this site were little more than very basic stone dwellings with a tatch roof. to me this seems like it came from a much grander building, could it possibly be part of a door jamb? or window surround? or mabe even from the castle which stands about 350 meters away as the crow flys.
can anyone shed some light on this, or seen somthing similar?
thanks

slowburner

Some questions.
Is it definitely solid limestone and not concrete?
Is the castle built out of limestone and are there any similar features there?
Where is the castle?

If it is solid limestone, my guess is that it is a lintel, probably from a window.
The carving looks as if it was made to blend the lintel into existing ashlar stonework above the opening.
If it was over a door, the opening would be 1 metre, minus the overhang into the reveals, which would be a very narrow door indeed.

Old buildings like the castle, often (nearly always, in fact) get picked over for good stone as the building falls into decline.
350 metres is not far at all for a stone to be 'relocated'.
It's surprising that such a good stone wasn't used for a lintel somewhere else - was this the only stone or were there other, worked stones in the garden?
It could be that an earlier building incorporated the stone on this site and was later demolished.
The presence of other worked stones in proximity, would indicate this.

quercus

hello slowburner thanks for the reply
yes it is definitely limestone, and the castle is Carlow castle which is made from limestone.
i had another theory thrown at me today, a neighbour sugested it was the old back door step from the house removed years ago. If you look at the picture i have posted here imagine you are looking at a step straight on both left and right top edges have sharp corners the middle dips and is more roundly worn like a step.
But to me it is quite narrow for a step, and this may have being one of its uses after it's original use, we found it under concrete steps in the garden which may sugest in the past it was used here in this location as a garden step.
no other stones found around it and it was laid on earth no foundation under it.
as i said in my first post it is pretty neat and clean carving and alot of work to go to for a door step/treshold in an old council house.

slowburner

Perhaps the grooves were added some time later to drain away water.
The wear looks very consistent with it being used as a step for a relatively long period alright.
The middle groove is worn down more than the grooves at the sides which would imply that the grooves were carved early in its life as a step.
I don't think it would be too much trouble to go to for a threshold.
Imagine if the step at your front door had a puddle every time it rained - you'd be out with the hammer and chisel pretty quick!
I see that the castle was blown up in 1814 by a descendant of the Hamilton family, when he attempted to excavate a tunnel under the castle (which has no foundations, by the way).
The plan was to use the castle as a lunatic asylum - I shudder to think what the purpose of the tunnel would have been!

I still think that it was probably cut for the castle originally, probably for the lintel/head of a window.
Some time after the castle was damaged in 1814, the stone was picked up and used as a step to the council house.
When it was in its second incarnation, as a step, it was found that water was pooling in it, so grooves were carved into it to allow water to drain away.
I think that if had been originally cut as a step, there wouldn't have been a problem with drainage.
In Dublin, most older houses have granite steps cut specifically for the purpose, and these are laid with a slight fall away from the threshold.
It's not hard to imagine how a stone which was not cut specifically for this purpose could have drainage problems.
That's my theory, for what it's worth.

quercus

turning a norman castle into a lunitic assylum, very hitchcock, yeah it's sad to think that the castle survived almost completely intact until the mad doctor decided to undermine it and use explosives to thin out the meters thick walls!! (i think he should have being in one himself) what must the locals have being thinking at the time? all we have left now is the west wall and two towers, still quite an imposing structure though.

Aelfric

In all my years digging and building survey, I can honestly say I've never seen anything like that from a medieval building. My money would, as the neighbour suggested, be on the more recent dwelling pre-dating the present council house. It smacks of a piece of ornamental kerbing, perhaps from a garden.

slowburner

Aelfric wrote: »

In all my years digging and building survey, I can honestly say I've never seen anything like that from a medieval building. My money would, as the neighbour suggested, be on the more recent dwelling pre-dating the present council house. It smacks of a piece of ornamental kerbing, perhaps from a garden.

Do you not think it's possible that the piece was originally a lintel from a smallish window (without the carving) and that it may have been re-used as a step in the council house and the carving added later?
The wear is very step like.
It would be a very dramatic kerb stone for a council house.

slowburner

I've taken the liberty of adding a couple of lines to the last picture to try and highlight where the wear has occurred on the stone.
It is a common wear pattern on steps made from a relatively soft material like limestone.
The location of the middle groove is also consistent with the purpose of drainage.
Note how it is at the lowest point of the dip.
This might also explain why the three short grooves are not spaced at equal intervals.
Not only am I convinced that it was used as a step, I am fairly certain that the folks who stepped on it, always did so with their right foot!
Whether the stone was originally hewn as a step or as a lintel, is a separate question. It could probably be determined if the stone came from the castle by seeing if there are any there which are similar in rock type and general shape.
This picture of the castle shows a stone (arrowed) very similar to the OP.

http://resources.teachnet.ie/jfarrell/2006D/carlow1.htm

Simon.d

slowburner wrote: »

This picture of the castle shows a stone (arrowed) very similar to the OP.

Here's a very extensive photographic survey of Carlow castle, assembled using Microsoft's photosynth tool: http://www.photosynth.net/view.aspx?cid=f95cf2f5-4c65-491c-98b9-9439b4d1071b

slowburner

Very impressive.

DeepSleeper

Aelfric wrote: »

In all my years digging and building survey, I can honestly say I've never seen anything like that from a medieval building. My money would, as the neighbour suggested, be on the more recent dwelling pre-dating the present council house. It smacks of a piece of ornamental kerbing, perhaps from a garden.

I agree with Aelfric - I've visited and/or surveyed hundreds of Irish castles and I've never seen a stone carved like that - I think it postdates 1700 and may well have been carved in the 1900s.

Good stonework was still being carved for new buildings in the early 1900s - see for example:
http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/Surveys/Buildings/BuildingoftheMonth/Archive/Name,937,en.html

quercus

Simon.d wrote: »

Here's a very extensive photographic survey of Carlow castle, assembled using Microsoft's photosynth tool: http://www.photosynth.net/view.aspx?cid=f95cf2f5-4c65-491c-98b9-9439b4d1071b

wow i dont think i have seen the castle in as much detail before thanks for the link.

well when ever and for whatever purpose it was carved it was well done. we originally thought we had came apon a small wall because those stone effect and pointing betweem them looked so real, and when we cleaned more we found it was one peice. it wont be burried again it will be incorporated into the garden make over.

slowburner

DeepSleeper wrote: »

I agree with Aelfric - I've visited and/or surveyed hundreds of Irish castles and I've never seen a stone carved like that - I think it postdates 1700 and may well have been carved in the 1900s.

Good stonework was still being carved for new buildings in the early 1900s - see for example:
http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/Surveys/Buildings/BuildingoftheMonth/Archive/Name,937,en.html

I agree that the carving on the stone postdates the castle.
However, I'd bet a fair sum that the stone itself was salvaged from the castle - sometime after the accident of 1814.
Its original purpose was probably for use as a lintel, or to frame some other ope, or possibly a step (the pattern of wear shows clearly that it was used as a step for an extended period).

Have a look at the second pic in post #8 above, which demonstrates that similar, roughly orthogonal stones were used as lintels in the castle.
Where did all the steps from the castle end up?

It was probably re-used as a step in the earlier dwelling house, and then drainage was carved into the stone when it was found that its original shape caused water to pool.
Or perhaps it was just poorly laid, and it was easier to carve the channels rather than reset the stone.
The carving is definitely functional rather than decorative.

Quercus, have your neighbours turned up similar stones?
Keep an eye out for similar stones which may have been re-used locally in walls etc.

Good stonework was still being carved for new buildings in the early 1900s

Good masonry didn't stop in the early 20th C

quercus

im not aware of any other stones being found in neighbouring gardens. but i agree that it had being used as a step for a long time. this current house was built in 1912 my parents bought the house 30 years ago. the house was renovated some time in the 60s. so if the stone was an original back door step it would have being insitu only 50+ years. is that long enough in an ordinary dwelling house traffic situation to wear that much. it is good quality limestone very dense ,it takes 2 people to lift.
i think it is very possably reused stone as its just too narrow for a modern step only bout 5" if i step on it my whole foot wont fit on it my heel hangs off.
over the years i have heard accounts of tonnes of stone being carried away by locals over a long period and most buildings in the local area having some stone incorporated into them somewhere. even very recently after building work infront of the castle i know of a truck driver who proudly announces to anyone who visits his house that his new garage is faced with stone from carlow castle. removed from the digging and clearing of the site in front of the castle.

slowburner

quercus wrote: »

so if the stone was an original back door step it would have being insitu only 50+ years. is that long enough in an ordinary dwelling house traffic situation to wear that much. it is good quality limestone very dense ,it takes 2 people to lift.

I don't know, to be honest.
Mind you if the men of the house wore hobnailed boots, 50 years of traffic could produce the wear.
I've seen plenty of granite steps which show similar wear but this might have occurred over a longer period (100 years +).
I think granite is harder than limestone, so it might wear less rapidly.