Emergency driving from the drivers seat

source

Hi all, saw this video posted over in the emergency services forum, thought you all might like a look at some emergency driving from the drivers seat so to speak, I know it comes up often as to how to respond correctly to an Emergency services vehicle.

This video might help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTSDpqK_r5o

naoise80

The first thing that occurs to me is that they went an awful roundabout way to get from James' St to Dorset St

source

naoise80 wrote: »

The first thing that occurs to me is that they went an awful roundabout way to get from James' St to Dorset St

They went from James Street to Beaumont Hospital, not Dorset St.

bijapos

They could have either gone down Bridgefoot St which has speed bumps IIRC, then left, right, up through Smithfield etc or down Lr Bridge St and up King St so I'd say its the same, thing is with the route they took the roads are wider and its easier to get around them.

Interesting to see how a small number of drivers really are totally oblivious to whats around them, the junction beside Christchurch is the best example, no cars coming from the right stopped even though the ambulance in right in their sights coming down from Patrick St, nobody in front moves into the junction to give the ambulance some space, probably can't see them because they dont know where their mirrors are.

ironclaw

Still don't understand why some ambulance drivers don't use bus lanes. A few times in that video you have a clear bus lane, but they drive into on coming traffic. I appreciate you can have taxi's and bus's blocking, but on the quieter streets they are clearly empty. They regularly do it on the N11 from Lochlinstown to Cabinteely, barrel down lane 2 when the entire bus lane is empty.

But for the record, I have the utmost respect for what they do. I do it myself as well so I know it can be one pressure keg of an environment.

source

ironclaw wrote: »

Still don't understand why some ambulance drivers don't use bus lanes. A few times in that video you have a clear bus lane, but they drive into on coming traffic. I appreciate you can have taxi's and bus's blocking, but on the quieter streets they are clearly empty. They regularly do it on the N11 from Lochlinstown to Cabinteely, barrel down lane 2 when the entire bus lane is empty.

Just on this, when people hear sirens their first reaction is to pull to the left, if you're in an ambulance, fire engine or garda car, in a bus lane with lights and sirens, chances are the people you're undertaking will pull into the bus lane without even looking for where the noise is coming from, causing an accident.

So because of this, they tend to take the outside lane, and push drivers into the bus lane.

ironclaw

source wrote: »

Just on this, when people hear sirens their first reaction is to pull to the left, if you're in an ambulance, fire engine or garda car, in a bus lane with lights and sirens, chances are the people you're undertaking will pull into the bus lane without even looking for where the noise is coming from, causing an accident.

So because of this, they tend to take the outside lane, and push drivers into the bus lane.

Thats what I figured, and it makes sense. I made the usual assumption of thinking everyone else had some sense of awareness

mikemac1

Line of cars on Collins Avenue with lots of room to their left and nobody pulling in. There just after the junction a small bit before the ten minute mark

I never realized Beaumont site was so big, it's huge in there

CiniO

That's very interesting video. I've never seen an emergency vehicle on-board recording.
I must say it kept me engrossed through the whole video.
And I must admit that I expected more drivers not to see an ambulance and block it's way. It wasn't actually that bad.

corktina

not too bad reactions in most cases...the 06MH beemer was asleep as was the bus driver crossing over O connell bridge.

It's amazing how I knew most of those roads, and very rarely drive in Dublin

My missus does this for a living but ALWAYS gets me to drive if we are out together.

CiniO

One from Poland.
Video of bit worse quality.
I think ambulance driver goes a bit faster, but other drivers reaction usually worse than in Dublin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjPbafuv5co

Anan1

One thing i've really noticed (not just from that video) is that people seem very reluctant to break red lights to facilitate emergency vehicles.

gyppo

One thing that struck me was how rough the ambulance felt on the road.
I'd hate to be a poor divil with a serious spinal condition being ferried about in it.

People employed in Emergency Services don't get paid anything near their worth. They deserve our total respect.

challengemaster

Anan1 wrote: »

One thing i've really noticed (not just from that video) is that people seem very reluctant to break red lights to facilitate emergency vehicles.

That's because legally you're not allowed to (without direct garda instruction). If you do anything illegal in the aiding of an ES vehicle (break lights, pull into bus lane, etc etc) and cause an accident, the blame falls 100% on you.

This is actually the one point where I wouldn't approve of some of the ambulance drivers aggressive driving, where s/he was literally forcing cars to break red lights and move into junctions where they might not be clear to go. Yes, I do appreciate that it is emergency driving, but there also has to be an understanding that you can't force other drivers out of the way because if they crash the blame doesn't fall on you.

Johntegr

This is why I've a hatred for people with headphones in when driving their car and I see it more and more.

Get a god damn AUX cable or headunit that will allow you to listen to your iPod/MP3. Otherwise GTFO the road. Idiots.

/rant.

Anan1

challengemaster wrote: »

That's because legally you're not allowed to (without direct garda instruction). If you do anything illegal in the aiding of an ES vehicle (break lights, pull into bus lane, etc etc) and cause an accident, the blame falls 100% on you.

This is actually the one point where I wouldn't approve of some of the ambulance drivers aggressive driving, where s/he was literally forcing cars to break red lights and move into junctions where they might not be clear to go. Yes, I do appreciate that it is emergency driving, but there also has to be an understanding that you can't force other drivers out of the way because if they crash the blame doesn't fall on you.

I understand your point, but I wouldn't hesitate to run a red light (where safe to do so) to make way for an ambulance.

challengemaster

Anan1 wrote: »

I understand your point, but I wouldn't hesitate to run a red light (where safe to do so) to make way for an ambulance.

Until the law changes on that one, I'll do anything except break the law to aid ES vehicles. I'm never slow to move out of the way, but I certainly won't be opening myself up to liability.

Anan1

challengemaster wrote: »

Until the law changes on that one, I'll do anything except break the law to aid ES vehicles. I'm never slow to move out of the way, but I certainly won't be opening myself up to liability.

Sure we open ourselves up to liability every time we start the car. I dunno about you, but i've broken laws in far less worthy causes than facilitating an ambulance.

RandomAccess

You'd think once he got into beaumont it would be a fairly direct route to the emergency department.. how wrong was I! Its way too narrow to deal with traffic build up, and at one point the ambulance had to enter the other lane just to get around a bend, looked to get pretty close to that avensis.

Also many many many years back on a tv show like Beyond 2000 they showed a feature whereby emergency vehicles could cause lights to change to facilitate them.. whatever came of that!!! Dublin city center is a real trap for emergency vehicles.

And finally a lot of pedestrians cross pretty close to the oncoming ambulance.. what the hell is that about, its pretty distracting.

griffin100

My dad retired last week after 25 years of driving an ambulance. He never had a crash as such but he was T-boned by a guy once in Dublin who came out of a side street and hit him hard enough to turn the ambulance over, funny think was the ambulance was sitting in a queue of traffic at the time and aa not on a call. He reckons most drivers are clued in and get out of the way when they need to but on occasion you come across an idiot who just blankly refuses to move across a lane (not talking about breaking lights). Sorta glad he ain't doing it anymore, he's getting too old for that crack and you need fast reaction times.

Voodoomelon

Pretty cool to think they have to be able to respond to an actual emergency at the end of hairy driving like that. Most people would be sweating and trembling after that kind of journey.

Berty

I wouldn't hesitate to move through a red light to facilitate any ES vehicle and I have done so in the past.

If a Garda pulled me over for doing it I would have no issue in telling the Garda to cop the fvck on.

Any Judge would ask you "Was it a life or death situation?" and the answer would be "I would have to assume it was because they were Emergency vehicles"

Anyway I thought the bus on O'Connell bridge was a bit stupid. Surely the height of the drivers cab he would have seen or at least heard the Ambulance. :rolleyes:

It seems as soon as the Ambulance hit the residential northside the drivers seem to be more apathetic to the Ambulance and in that long line of traffic(no idea what street, just before the Topaz on the Junction) they barely moved and the girl in the mini even pulled out. :eek:

corktina

gyppo wrote: »

One thing that struck me was how rough the ambulance felt on the road.
I'd hate to be a poor divil with a serious spinal condition being ferried about in it.

People employed in Emergency Services don't get paid anything near their worth. They deserve our total respect.

the Merc ambulances are worse than the Transits apparently and THEY are as rough as old boots. Patients are often vomitting as a result.

The thing to do I'm told is to make room,too many people just stop, I guess they panic a bit. I was in Cornwall last year on a windy twisty road when one came up behind me. Fortunately the guy in front was clued up and we both put down the foot until we could pull over.

congo_90

Johntegr wrote: »

This is why I've a hatred for people with headphones in when driving their car and I see it more and more.

Get a god damn AUX cable or headunit that will allow you to listen to your iPod/MP3. Otherwise GTFO the road. Idiots.

/rant.

I'll see you over in R&R they're not even 40 euro for such head units!

corktina wrote: »

the Merc ambulances are worse than the Transits apparently and THEY are as rough as old boots. Patients are often vomitting as a result.

The thing to do I'm told is to make room,too many people just stop, I guess they panic a bit. I was in Cornwall last year on a windy twisty road when one came up behind me. Fortunately the guy in front was clued up and we both put down the foot until we could pull over.

Back O/T
I'd move outta the way in a junction but wouldn't cross. unless it was a narrow junction and would cause hazard afterwards to traffic.
same as a garda car, fire brigade. I'll always check mirrors and move left if its best practice. Basically get outta the way it could after all be your mammy in the back! :pac:

Interesting though on the N3 a garda van all blues on one night travelling home and it was behind me for ages. Wasn't sure why it wasn't over-taking as i was doing 100 and so i slowed and moved into hard shoulder. Wasn't sure at first if it was after me because I had been a tad bit bold with speed just before.

corktina

corktina wrote: »

not too bad reactions in most cases...the 06MH beemer was asleep as was the bus driver crossing over O connell bridge.

It's amazing how I knew most of those roads, and very rarely drive in Dublin

My missus does this for a living but ALWAYS gets me to drive if we are out together.

How should have the 06MH beemer reacted in this case?

Is it the general consensus that the cars sitting there should break the red light to make room?

CiniO

Beer Baron wrote: »

Anyway I thought the bus on O'Connell bridge was a bit stupid. Surely the height of the drivers cab he would have seen or at least heard the Ambulance. :rolleyes:

Bus drivers don't sit as high as truck drivers.
Actually he might be sitting even lower than ambulance driver, or any van driver.
It starts at 3:40 really.
He had a green light on one of the biggest junctions in the city. And he only could see ambulance in the last moment (a concrete barrier was on his view point), a which stage it was way too late for him to brake. Remember he is carrying standing passengers, so during emergency braking, there might be people injured or even killed in the worst case.

CiniO

salonfire wrote: »

How should have the 06MH beemer reacted in this case?

Is it the general consensus that the cars sitting there should break the red light to make room?

Not break the red light, but just move to give way to ambulance.
Surely sitting there and blocking ambulance was the worst one could do.

EDIT:
I think I found the link to that spot: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=dublin&hl=en&ll=53.342996,-6.272315&spn=0.00059,0.001742&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=50.823846,114.169922&hnear=Dublin,+County+Dublin,+Ireland&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=53.342978,-6.272194&panoid=fAkQWgauzGJob5LkjysCUQ&cbp=12,105.59,,0,11.64

He could easily move forward another 3 to 4 metres without even getting into the junction, or he could just mount the kerb on the right, as it's only an inch (or two) high. No excuse for doing nothing for nearly 10 seconds.

Mycroft H

I would have just shifted left instead of just panicking with a flashing ambulance behind you. Ambulances aren't on blues and twos for no reason.

Chimaera

The thing to remember is a lot of people panic once the adrenaline hits (personally I reckon a lot of near misses turn into accidents because of this) so they won't behave logically.

It's very easy for us to sit here behind out keyboards and comment on it logically, but when you're in that situation it's a lot different.

The ambulance driver took a few chances that were a bit too close IMO, but I don't know what was going on in the back either. All in all, I reckon he did about as well as he could do in the traffic.

It's also worth bearing in mind that drivers in the emergency services don't have any special protection legally for driving in these situations. They're driving on their own licence at all times.

(I occasionally drive ambulances for a voluntary service but have never had to do so on lights and sirens)

CiniO

Chimaera wrote: »

The ambulance driver took a few chances that were a bit too close IMO,

Any examples (like clip time?)

It's also worth bearing in mind that drivers in the emergency services don't have any special protection legally for driving in these situations. They're driving on their own licence at all times.

What do you mean by "special protection"? Obviously if something goes wrong, they risk their licence, but surely they are allowed not to adhere to traffic regulations.

(I occasionally drive ambulances for a voluntary service but have never had to do so on lights and sirens)

Is there any special permission needed to be driving an emergency vehicles? Something like you need to do a training for it or pass some test, etc/????

mikemac1

Chimaera wrote: »

It's also worth bearing in mind that drivers in the emergency services don't have any special protection legally for driving in these situations. They're driving on their own licence at all times.

I'm suprised at that
I figured the State issued a licence and they worked off that. I suppose I figured the same for the army too when they drive their jeeps around for bank runs or general duties

I'm not doubting you of course, I'm just suprised, that's all

davetherave

mikemac1 wrote: »

I'm suprised at that
I figured the State issued a licence and they worked off that. I suppose I figured the same for the army too when they drive their jeeps around for bank runs or general duties

I'm not doubting you of course, I'm just suprised, that's all

We have to do army driving courses and get a military driving licenses separate to our civvy ones, to be allowed drive military vehicles.

Irish Steve

Several thoughts. First, I have to assume that the case was specialised, so could not be treated at Jame's or the Mater, both of which were closer than Beaumont.

From Christchurch, even allowing for narrower roads, it would surely have to have been quicker to drop left and take the N2 out towards Phibsboro, and then hang the right towards Bolton St, and then keep going, rather than going all the way to O'Connell St and round past the Rotunda.

The biggest problem with 2's & Blues is working out where they are in relation to the vehicle, and then working out the quickest way to get out of their route,

That said, there are times when they turn the siren off, and only start it again if the traffic is actually stopped or at a major junction, which can be even more confusing, especially in traffic that's heavier than in the video posted here, that was a pretty quiet time of the day, it would have been a very different story at peak hour.

All in all, though, a thought provoking video, showing just how much pressure is on emergency drivers, given that they also have to try and facilitate the paramedic in the back, who may be trying to treat the patient while they are on the move.

Mycroft H

CiniO wrote: »

Any examples (like clip time?)


What do you mean by "special protection"? Obviously if something goes wrong, they risk their licence, but surely they are allowed not to adhere to traffic regulations.



Is there any special permission needed to be driving an emergency vehicles? Something like you need to do a training for it or pass some test, etc/????

Depends on the service. New HSE paramedic students are definitely thought how to drive on blues. I know the instructor who teaches them and they have special "training ambulances" for emergency driving. I'm not enitrely sure of older members, thought I would assume they would be brought up to speed with the new students.

see http://nats.ie/4.html

Driving Programmes


Driver Level One (DL1)
This course is aimed at those members of the ambulance service who will not be required to drive frontline A&E vehicles, It is ideally suited to PTS drivers and those members of the HSE who are required to drive as part of their duties.
The emphasis is on the system of vehicle control, patient comfort, vehicle sympathy and reversing / manoeuvring.
Driver level one may be used as a stand alone course for Patient Transport Purposes or as recognised prior learning for those who wish to take a DL2 or higher course in the future.
Duration: 30 hour / 5 day course


Driver Level Two (DL2):

This course is an advanced course designed to fulfill the needs of drivers of frontline Ambulances
The emphasis is on the system of vehicle control, patient comfort vehicle sympathy and reversing / maneuvering. With additional focus given to driver development and vehicle dynamics
Duration 90 hours three weeks **

For any of the Private(Medicall/Medilink/Lifeline ect) or Voluntary (St Johns, Order of Malta, Civil Defense) bodies there is little or no training or qualification required by these organisations or by the state beyond a standard driving license.

Chimaera

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimaera View Post
The ambulance driver took a few chances that were a bit too close IMO,
Any examples (like clip time?)

I don't have specific examples now, and I'm not going viewing the video again. There were just a few places where I found myself taking a deep breath.

It's also worth bearing in mind that drivers in the emergency services don't have any special protection legally for driving in these situations. They're driving on their own licence at all times.

What do you mean by "special protection"? Obviously if something goes wrong, they risk their licence, but surely they are allowed not to adhere to traffic regulations.

The only relaxation of road traffic regulations that I'm aware of is they can ignore speed limits and treat red lights as a stop sign, and that only when lights and sirens are in use.

(I occasionally drive ambulances for a voluntary service but have never had to do so on lights and sirens)
Is there any special permission needed to be driving an emergency vehicles? Something like you need to do a training for it or pass some test, etc/????

Beyond being insured to drive the vehicle, the state places no additional requirements on drivers of emergency vehicles. Individual organisations may place their own requirements though. The organisation I'm a member of does not have a national standard in place for driver training or assessment. In the particular branch I'm involved in, we are assessed routinely by a professional driver. Drivers can (and have been) removed from driving duties as a result of misbehaviour.

Esel

I would also question the route taken. Obviously, we do not know whether there was an open route via Bridge St and Bolton St would have thought that would have been faster), or even from O'Connell Bridge via Eden Quay / Gardiner St / Summerhill / Richmond Rd / Gracepark Rd.

CharlieCroker

I don't know the northside very well but regarding the route, you have to remember that an ambulance is 9 feet wide so needs to be able to travel at speed safely so a driver will take wider roads that have Buslanes or cyclelanes that drivers can move over into or routes that don't suffer as badly from congestion. It might be a longer distance but may take less time to get there.

I drive on blues most days. No emergency driver expects you to break the law or act dangerously in order to get out of their way. It's up to them to get past you safely. Anything you can do to assist, brilliant. If you're on a narrow 2 way street that's packed with traffic, then it's my tough luck. There's not much you can do.

What I do want is for you to do is:
-Use your mirrors
-move to the left hand lane on a dual carriageway.
-DO NOT STOP on a crest, bend or narrow road or if there's traffic coming against you. Keep going until it's safe, and there's space, to pull in. (hard shoulder/buslane etc)
- use indicators so the emergency driver has some idea on what you plan to do.
- LISTEN!!!

Bigcheeze

Johntegr wrote: »

This is why I've a hatred for people with headphones in when driving their car and I see it more and more.

Get a god damn AUX cable or headunit that will allow you to listen to your iPod/MP3. Otherwise GTFO the road. Idiots.

/rant.

Assuming you're talking about the distinctive white Apple ones, I think you'll find it's so people can use their iPhones hands free for calls, not music. I have mine in all the time when driving but am not listening to any music.

Johntegr

Bigcheeze wrote: »

Assuming you're talking about the distinctive white Apple ones, I think you'll find it's so people can use their iPhones hands free for calls, not music. I have mine in all the time when driving but am not listening to any music.

Any headphones. Whether it be for a call or music, it should be illegal to have earplugs/headphones in when driving.

I rate it between using a mobile and DUI.

I've refused a lift before because the driver was listening to music through headphones. To be fecked with that.

Bigcheeze

Johntegr wrote: »

Any headphones. Whether it be for a call or music, it should be illegal to have earplugs/headphones in when driving.

I rate it between using a mobile and DUI.

I've refused a lift before because the driver was listening to music through headphones. To be fecked with that.

They don't block sound. It's a bit like saying you should have to drive with your windows open or with the radio off or banning talking.

hmmm

CiniO wrote: »

He could easily move forward another 3 to 4 metres without even getting into the junction, or he could just mount the kerb on the right, as it's only an inch (or two) high. No excuse for doing nothing for nearly 10 seconds.

I wouldn't be too harsh on him, traffic coming from his right are going over the top of a crest and fairly shifts along there, if I didn't know the area I'd be very nervous about sticking my nose out.

Also, I've crossed at that junction many times and I've seen a couple of near misses where cars coming from the right slam on their breaks when they see an ambulance. Very dangerous, there will be a bad accident there someday.

I thought when I loaded this thread there was going to be some awful driving on display, but in fairness I can see little to complain about - everyone seemed to do their best.

I really have to question the route however.

Bigcheeze

hmmm wrote: »

I really have to question the route however.

I'd say it's the most direct route. James's to Beaumont in 12 minutes is pretty good. Doubt you could shave much off it regardless of route.

**Timbuk2**

Here's another video, based in the UK but still relevant - this one has commentary from the driver/instructor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVtQ4NN5_-Q

Bigcheeze

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

Here's another video, based in the UK but still relevant - this one has commentary from the driver/instructor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVtQ4NN5_-Q

Cool. Gives you an idea of how they make decisions when driving. It's not just a case of going fast and running red lights.

I can understand all the thanking but it should probably be left to the passenger instead of the driver.

RandomAccess

This would make a great computer game if it was a SIM.

Mister Jingles

In that UK video above I noticed that he says change the siren sound. Are drivers thought to use certain siren (wail and yelp) for certain area's or types of emergencies ?

source

Mister Jingles wrote: »

In that UK video above I noticed that he says change the siren sound. Are drivers thought to use certain siren (wail and yelp) for certain area's or types of emergencies ?

Sirens are changed approaching each junction, the change in tone can give a better indication to motorists of where the ES vehicle is coming from.

Also if more than one vehicle is approaching they use different tones to warn motorists that there is more than one ES vehicle to watch out for.

dahamsta

I have the sound off on my mobile, and provided a mee-maw soundtrack in my head the whole way through, completely unintentionally.

Fascinating to see it from their perspective.

ciotog

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

Here's another video, based in the UK but still relevant - this one has commentary from the driver/instructor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVtQ4NN5_-Q

I thought that was very interesting, ended up watching it before the Dublin video. So, found myself wondering about some of the decisions made at traffic lights (I'm not questioning the driver, I'm not at all qualified to do that) where the UK instructor seemed to come to a stop altogether. Obviously you're looking at an instructional video versus a live situation so the driver is going to be pushing harder.

stoneill

The video from Poland had the ambulance driving along tram lines - do emergency services in Dublin use the Luas lines?

Mycroft H

stoneill wrote: »

The video from Poland had the ambulance driving along tram lines - do emergency services in Dublin use the Luas lines?

I've seen the Guards using them.