Would there be place for the UEFA Intertoto Cup to return?

legendary.xix · 09-03-2012 1:34pm #1

Would there be place for the UEFA Intertoto Cup to return?

20 league champions are left without the Europa League safety net at the qualifying stage. 37 teams are knocked out at the Europa League play-off stage.

European football historically has had three competitions being run at the same time and historically there has been at least one competition being all knock-out.

I would suggest the UEFA Intertoto Cup return being contested by 64 teams over two-legged knock-out rounds. The competition to start at the same time of the CL & EL group stages.

Not all 20 league champions would be of a good standard so they might need to play-off to reduce to 10. 37 teams knocked out at the EL play-off stage would bring numbers up to 47. The remaining 17 places could be made up of the highest ranked teams knocked out in EL Round 3.

I think there would be a place for such a knock-out tournament. It would give a chance for European glory at a level where it is not attainable at the moment. The winner could be rewarded with an automatic EL group stage place for the following season.

cson · 09-03-2012 2:29pm

Jesus someone is gone a bit of a random thread overload binge. :P

legendary.xix · 09-03-2012 2:32pm

cson wrote: »

Jesus someone is gone a bit of a random thread overload binge. :P

Hoping for input on the idea, be it good or the idea being shot down. I think there's a place for it but UEFA love money. I'm not sure they'd consider such a competition.

losthorizon · 09-03-2012 6:48pm

As a travelling football fan, man, it took me to some STRANGE places that yeah yeah I enjoyed and not just for the football.:o:confused::o:eek: But, I think its had its day.

Omackeral · 09-03-2012 9:41pm

Originally posted by legendary. xix
Would there be place for the UEFA Intertoto Cup Cup Winners Cup to return?

Absolutely. Great idea!

dsmythy · 10-03-2012 1:15pm

No from me. You have a premier European competition and a secondary one. That should do it.

dreamers75 · 10-03-2012 2:36pm

Intertoto was played on SATURDAY nights in July.

It was the best Euro competition ever for that reason alone.

CSF · 10-03-2012 3:29pm

From an Irish perspective it would be great, as its another team in Europe each year. No real need for it on the wider scale though.

losthorizon · 10-03-2012 3:52pm

CSF wrote: »

From an Irish perspective it would be great, as its another team in Europe each year. No real need for it on the wider scale though.

The extra intertoto team was put into the europa League if I remember correctly - its still the case.

Jesus Shaves · 10-03-2012 3:54pm

I'd love to see its return, It would give teams like Liverpool and Newcastle a real chance of European glory

Mr. Guappa · 10-03-2012 4:03pm

What you've proposed is not really a return of the Intertoto Cup, which was a summer tournament. You've proposed a 3rd tier European competition after the Champions League and Europa League.

Given the shadow teams that Spurs and others have put out in the EL in recent seasons, and the type of side that Stoke took to Valencia a few weeks back I can't see too much of a market for a 3rd European competition among the elite leagues of Europe.

However, there probably is a market for a "Johnstone's Paint" type competition with clubs from the lower ranked leagues competing amongst themselves.

CSF · 10-03-2012 4:07pm

losthorizon wrote: »

The extra intertoto team was put into the europa League if I remember correctly - its still the case.

But would we lose a Europa League team if the Intertoto came back? Probably not, so still an extra spot.

legendary.xix · 10-03-2012 5:15pm

I'm not suggesting an extra team in Europe, just an extra European competition which would effectively be third tier.
The 20 league champions without EL safety net e.g. Tailinn and defeated Europa League play-off teams e.g. Partizan Belgrage to take part in a knock-out competition, with the winner earning a EL group spot the following season.
64 teams could play 4 knock-out round before Christmas and the semi-finals over two-legs, same week as EL round of 32. The Intertoto final then could be staged in Monaco the night of the CL and EL quarter-final draws.
Call for a third competition is to give lesser league champions more European games, and an attainable European trophy for clubs at a certain level.

CSF · 10-03-2012 5:19pm

legendary.xix wrote: »

I'm not suggesting an extra team in Europe, just an extra European competition which would effectively be third tier.
The 20 league champions without EL safety net e.g. Tailinn and defeated Europa League play-off teams e.g. Partizan Belgrage to take part in a knock-out competition, with the winner earning a EL group spot the following season.
64 teams could play 4 knock-out round before Christmas and the semi-finals over two-legs, same week as EL round of 32. The Intertoto final then could be staged in Monaco the night of the CL and EL quarter-final draws.
Call for a third competition is to give lesser league champions more European games, and an attainable European trophy for clubs at a certain level.

So not the Intertoto cup at all then???

legendary.xix · 10-03-2012 5:38pm

CSF wrote: »

So not the Intertoto cup at all then???

It could be in a new form, but yeah, I know what you mean.

mike65 · 10-03-2012 6:25pm

Bring back the Cup Winners Cup!

CSF · 10-03-2012 6:32pm

mike65 wrote: »

Bring back the Cup Winners Cup!

Why did they get rid of it in the first place? I was too young (while still not that young) to put any rational thought into the whole thing.

mike65 · 10-03-2012 6:42pm

Blame the Champions League suddenly most cup winners were in that rather than the CWC so the runners up featured instead and prestige fell away and it got merged with the UEFA Cup.

legendary.xix · 11-03-2012 12:20pm

The Intertoto Cup through the years was revamped and tweaked here and there. It wouldn't be totally out of sync with its history to resurrect it and restructure. European football should have at least one all knock-out structure. With the CL and EL having group stages, the solution would be one additional tournament. Wishful thinking of sorts I guess but there is merit.

Taking the 20 league champions without EL safety net. They should have an opportunity to have more European games. It's the best way for them to progress. A lot of clubs knocked out at the EL play-off stage could do with more games as well on the European stage.

The Intertoto Cup has history. Bringing it back that an entirely new competition would be a more attractive move. The IC used to offer a pathway to the UEFA Cup. A return of the IC could easily offer a pathway to EL group stage but that of the following season.

We see on Thursday night, EL games played at 6pm and 8:05pm. While 5pm kick-off would hardly be ideal, there could be a place for IC games at that time on Tuesday and Wednesday nights.

It would include more teams in European football for longer. Give teams of a certain level a chance of European glory. Alas wishful thinking but as I say, there is merit in the suggestion. UEFA are all about money. If there's no money in it, they'll never be for it.

dsmythy · 11-03-2012 1:51pm

legendary.xix wrote: »

The Intertoto Cup through the years was revamped and tweaked here and there. It wouldn't be totally out of sync with its history to resurrect it and restructure. European football should have at least one all knock-out structure. With the CL and EL having group stages, the solution would be one additional tournament. Wishful thinking of sorts I guess but there is merit.

Taking the 20 league champions without EL safety net. They should have an opportunity to have more European games. It's the best way for them to progress. A lot of clubs knocked out at the EL play-off stage could do with more games as well on the European stage.

The Intertoto Cup has history. Bringing it back that an entirely new competition would be a more attractive move. The IC used to offer a pathway to the UEFA Cup. A return of the IC could easily offer a pathway to EL group stage but that of the following season.

We see on Thursday night, EL games played at 6pm and 8:05pm. While 5pm kick-off would hardly be ideal, there could be a place for IC games at that time on Tuesday and Wednesday nights.

It would include more teams in European football for longer. Give teams of a certain level a chance of European glory. Alas wishful thinking but as I say, there is merit in the suggestion. UEFA are all about money. If there's no money in it, they'll never be for it.

European glory for not just losers but real bad losers.

How would dragging an Irish team, that should have long been eliminated from European competition, to Kazakhstan in the pursuit of becoming champions of teams who lost other games benefit them at all? And vice versa?

European glory should be for teams who are among the best in Europe. Drag it down too far and what's the glory?

losthorizon · 11-03-2012 1:55pm

CSF wrote: »

Why did they get rid of it in the first place? I was too young (while still not that young) to put any rational thought into the whole thing.

They had to really when the CL was extended. Imagine if all 4 of the Spanish Cup Semi-Finalists qualified for the CL what would you do? Ask the remaining four teams to play off for the CWC place after the season had finished? Madness

losthorizon · 11-03-2012 2:01pm

dsmythy wrote: »

European glory for not just losers but real bad losers.

How would dragging an Irish team, that should have long been eliminated from European competition, to Kazakhstan in the pursuit of becoming champions of teams who lost other games benefit them at all? And vice versa?

European glory should be for teams who are among the best in Europe. Drag it down too far and what's the glory?

Thats not what the Inter-toto Cup was about. It was a betting tournament. No cup was even awarded to the winners. It was played during the Summer and there were three winners. IT was a fairly good tournament and I have great memories following Cork City around Europe but the tournament still exists in a form as the inter-toto place has been subsumed into the Europa Cup.

dsmythy · 11-03-2012 2:12pm

losthorizon wrote: »

Thats not what the Inter-toto Cup was about. It was a betting tournament. No cup was even awarded to the winners. It was played during the Summer and there were three winners. IT was a fairly good tournament and I have great memories following Cork City around Europe but the tournament still exists in a form as the inter-toto place has been subsumed into the Europa Cup.

I doubt you'd like the costs of it today. Should remain within the Europa League.

losthorizon · 11-03-2012 2:51pm

dsmythy wrote: »

I doubt you'd like the costs of it today. Should remain within the Europa League.

I agree

legendary.xix · 11-03-2012 10:22pm

dsmythy wrote: »

European glory for not just losers but real bad losers.

How would dragging an Irish team, that should have long been eliminated from European competition, to Kazakhstan in the pursuit of becoming champions of teams who lost other games benefit them at all? And vice versa?

European glory should be for teams who are among the best in Europe. Drag it down too far and what's the glory?

Within current structures, CL qualifying round 3 losers drop into the EL play-offs, CL play-off losers drop into the EL group stage and CL third placed teams drop into the EL Round of 32. With these teams dropping a level, 20 league champions and EL play-off losers using a similar structure could drop into a competition a level below.

An EL group spot for the eventual winner.

kryogen · 11-03-2012 10:31pm

No, would put too much strain on the squads of the teams competing in it, add to that the fact that its just not needed.

legendary.xix · 11-03-2012 10:35pm

kryogen wrote: »

No, would put too much strain on the squads of the teams competing in it, add to that the fact that its just not needed.

Fair comment. Being knock-out, most clubs would probably go 2 or 3 rounds. Clearly if the appetite isn't there for it, it'll never take off. UEFA being money mad then as well. Still though, there are clubs who get to certain rounds that could benefit from more games in Europe. Champions from certain countries could raise their profile a bit and perform better on the European stage.

Captain Havoc · 11-03-2012 10:36pm

Europa League isn't the most popular so I can't imagine people wanting to watch a lower competition.

legendary.xix · 11-03-2012 11:29pm

Captain Havoc wrote: »

Europa League isn't the most popular so I can't imagine people wanting to watch a lower competition.

It is in some countries. I know it might not be high on priorities across the water. I've heard stories from Belgium that there's been good coverage and interest in how there clubs have got on. A reason for the formation of the Europa League was to appease clubs looking to create their own competition like a North Atlantic League of something. The EL is more or less giving similar games. It's been a relative success in Eastern Europe then having more teams involved. Following the revamp of UEFA Cup to Europa League, it will take a few seasons for the new structure to establish itself.

dsmythy · 12-03-2012 10:55am

legendary.xix wrote: »

Within current structures, CL qualifying round 3 losers drop into the EL play-offs, CL play-off losers drop into the EL group stage and CL third placed teams drop into the EL Round of 32. With these teams dropping a level, 20 league champions and EL play-off losers using a similar structure could drop into a competition a level below.

An EL group spot for the eventual winner.

So a team could get knocked out of the Champions League into the Europa League. Then knocked out again and STILL they continue in Europe. People struggle to come to terms with the idea of teams dropping to the Europa League as it is. Why not a fouth European competition then for even more losers? There's some poor Luxembourg teams not getting their share.

legendary.xix · 12-03-2012 12:49pm

dsmythy wrote: »

So a team could get knocked out of the Champions League into the Europa League. Then knocked out again and STILL they continue in Europe. People struggle to come to terms with the idea of teams dropping to the Europa League as it is. Why not a fouth European competition then for even more losers? There's some poor Luxembourg teams not getting their share.

lol, I knew that was going to be thrown at it.

All I'll say is, European football historically has had 3 competitions being run and at least one being knock-out. The main reason I suggested this was for the 20 league champions who are out after CL qualifying round 2 and that is it. These clubs could benefit from some form of competition to have more games in Europe.

Would there be place for the UEFA Intertoto Cup to return?

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