Driving disqualification - extremely worried

Lakeshore

I am extremely worried about being disqualified from driving.

Last summer, I was involved in an unfortunate motoring accident in Northern Ireland. In January I was convicted for careless driving, leading to a 12 month disqualification from driving there and in Great Britain.

I live and work in Dublin.

When I was convicted in Northern Ireland at the end of January, I had to surrender my Irish driving license.

That was forwarded to the DVA, (Driver and Vehicle Agency) so I am not currently in possession of my license.

The DVA wrote to me yesterday confirming the details of my UK disqualification.

The letter stated that they would be informing the RSA and that the Irish authorities will contact me shortly to advise me of any steps to be taken to "recognise" the disqualification in Ireland.

The letter referenced the European Convention on Driving Disqualifications, introduced in 2010, which means there is mutuality of recognition between both jurisdictions and information on disqualifications is shared between the authorities north and south.

I was concerned this meant I was also off the road in the South and so I phoned the RSA and they were helpful. They confirmed I am 100% legally entitled to drive in in the Republic until such a time as the matter is brought before a District Court here and the "order is affirmed by a judge".

The individual I spoke with said they have - just this week - received notification of my disqualification from the DVA and they will be passing this on to my local Motor Tax office in Dublin, who are responsible for enforcement - ie. having a court summons issued and bringing me before a court.

The individual I spoke with gave me to understand that the Motor Tax office may or may not take this step - that if there is only, say, six months left on the disqualification, "they might not bother."

But she confirmed that they had taken action in some cases she was aware of, and people had actually been disqualified before the irish courts, as a result of disqualifications in NI.

She said in those instances, the judge imposed the same term and they had no discretion. (My disqualification in NI/GB runs until the end of January 2013, so an Irish judge would have to impose a ban until that time. She was adamant there was no discretion and I could't argue I needed the car for work)

Basically, I'm trying to figure out how likely it is that the Motor Tax office will proceed and take action against me.

If anyone has any experience or knowledge of this area, this would be greatly appreciated.

I work in Sales, totally rely on my car for a living and my husband has just lost been made redundant. If I am off the road here, then I will also lose my job.

I am worried sick.

Thanks very much in advance.

MagicSean

I don't think anyone has much experience in this area as its relatively new. I think the advice you have gotten already is the best you'll get.

leeroybrown

Do a search on this forum. There was a reasonably lengthy thread on the topic recently but as far as I remember no one could give any concrete answer to the question.

Lakeshore

Thanks

Victor

Slightly off-topic, but not being able to driver is not the end of the world. For long distance work you can get a CIÉ all services ticket for about €4,000 for the year of which half can be written off against tax. Then there are taxis and bikes for other locations.

Lakeshore wrote: »

I work in Sales, totally rely on my car for a living and my husband has just lost been made redundant. If I am off the road here, then I will also lose my job.

Use your husband as a driver.

dats_right

leeroybrown wrote: »

Do a search on this forum. There was a reasonably lengthy thread on the topic recently but as far as I remember no one could give any concrete answer to the question.

Yes, because when your livelihood is potentially threatened you should rely on internet forums.

OP, you should talk to a solicitor practising in the field of criminal law/road traffic. If you are very worried, you could do this before any potential action is taken against you to enforce the ban in this jurisdiction.

not even wrong

When I was convicted in Northern Ireland at the end of January, I had to surrender my Irish driving license.

That was forwarded to the DVA, (Driver and Vehicle Agency) so I am not currently in possession of my license.

You are not allowed drive in the Republic of Ireland without having your license with you, so you have already been de facto disqualified:

It is a requirement in Ireland that you carry your driving licence/learner permit with you at all times when driving. Failure to produce your licence/permit when requested to by a member of the Gardai (Irish police force) is an offence.

You should do what the poster above says and have your husband drive you.

ResearchWill

not even wrong wrote: »

You are not allowed drive in the Republic of Ireland without having your license with you, so you have already been de facto disqualified:You should do what the poster above says and have your husband drive you.

The OP does not have a defacto disquilification. Yes the OP if unable to produce on demand a licence commits an offence, fine in such case is usually no more than €50. But to say the OP is defacto disqualified is just plain wrong. It would mean if you walk out the door with out you licence because you left it in your suit in dry cleaners then you are defacto banned.

To the OP if your licence is so important go to a good road traffic solicitor, who will advise you on all the issues. This is relatively new legislation and there may be points worth challenging it.

not even wrong

ResearchWill wrote: »

The OP does not have a defacto disquilification.

The facts are the same; if the OP drives a car in the Republic of Ireland they are committing a criminal offence. That's what de facto means.

fine in such case is usually no more than €50.

What's the fine in cases where the reason the license cannot be produced is not due to absent-mindedness, but because it's been confiscated by another jurisdiction for dangerous driving, and disqualification is pending in this jurisdiction?

It would mean if you walk out the door with out you licence because you left it in your suit in dry cleaners then you are defacto banned.

No because in that situation your license has not been confiscated by a legal authority and you can go to the drycleaners and get it back anytime you want. (It's still a crime though and you can get summonsed for it).

Marcusm

DO any of the lawyers here have any insight into why it was decided to introduce the referral to the District Court into s9 RTA 2002? It seems to be an unnecessary step to me into what should be an administrative process. I.e. it having been decided that a mutual recognition procedure be introduced with respect to driving bans, why was it not simply the case that the foreign authorities only be required to notify the licencing authority in Ireland rather than having to impose what seems to be a superfluous court process on top. The DJ seems not to have any discretion so this surely is only an administrative rather than judicial function?

ResearchWill

not even wrong wrote: »

The facts are the same; if the OP drives a car in the Republic of Ireland they are committing a criminal offence. That's what de facto means.What's the fine in cases where the reason the license cannot be produced is not due to absent-mindedness, but because it's been confiscated by another jurisdiction for dangerous driving, and disqualification is pending in this jurisdiction?No because in that situation your license has not been confiscated by a legal authority and you can go to the drycleaners and get it back anytime you want. (It's still a crime though and you can get summonsed for it).

http://m.dictionary.com/d/?q=de%20facto&o=0&l=dir is a definition of de facto in this case while the OP has been disqualified from driving in the UK to be disqualified in this jurisdiction he must appear before a court in Ireland so untill that happens he is fully entitled to drive.

On the other hand if he drives without his licence he commits no offence the offence is failure to produce on demand so the offence can only be committed of the licence is in fact demanded. So there is no irishe disqualification in place real or de facto or any other way you can imagine.

Sponge Bob

The Op can hope the uk offence is not processed. That is all.

If they do not come to Garda notice they will not be asked to produce a licence..simples.

not even wrong

ResearchWill wrote: »

On the other hand if he drives without his licence he commits no offence the offence is failure to produce on demand so the offence can only be committed of the licence is in fact demanded. So there is no irishe disqualification in place real or de facto or any other way you can imagine.

So are you disputing that the law forbids the OP from driving without having her license with her, or are you just splitting hairs for the sake of it?

coylemj

not even wrong wrote: »

So are you disputing that the law forbids the OP from driving without having her license with her, or are you just splitting hairs for the sake of it?

It's not splitting hairs, what you seem to have difficulty grasping is that not having the physical licence on you is a completely different offence from not actually being licenced to drive so your assertion that not being in physical possession of a licence is a de facto ban is just plain wrong, despite your moniker.

not even wrong

coylemj wrote: »

It's not splitting hairs, what you seem to have difficulty grasping is that not having the physical licence on you is a completely different offence from not actually being licenced to drive so your assertion that not being in physical possession of a licence is a de facto ban is just plain wrong, despite your moniker.

Of course it's a completely different offence, but "de facto" means that the effects are the same -- the OP is not allowed drive either way, whether it's because she is not in possession of her license or because she has been formally disqualified by a court.

Edit: I'm going to quit this derail now but the OP should be aware that she is risking further legal trouble by continuing to drive even while not formally disqualified in this jurisdiction.

coylemj

not even wrong wrote: »

Of course it's a completely different offence, but "de facto" means that the effects are the same -- the OP is not allowed drive either way, whether it's because she is not in possession of her license or because she has been formally disqualified by a court.

The effects are not the same. Driving whilst banned is a whole different ball game if you're caught whereas driving without having the licence on you is no worse than parking on a double-yellow line and in a lot of cases you'll get away with a telling off and you'll be allowed produce at your local Garda station with no prosecution.

godtabh

Would it be worthwhile applying for a new licence now saying the current one is mis placed. Might solve all this de facto crap

Procrastastudy

godtabh wrote: »

Would it be worthwhile applying for a new licence now saying the current one is mis placed. Might solve all this de facto crap

Hmmm might also be used to show you're a liar and trying to circumvent the system if it goes to court!

Marcusm

godtabh wrote: »

Would it be worthwhile applying for a new licence now saying the current one is mis placed. Might solve all this de facto crap

If you are going to follow this route, surely it would be better to disclose that the original has been surrendered. There should not be a bar on issuance of a new licence until the actual disqualification has effect in Ireland. To do otherwise, you would have to make a false statement to the Gardai and ask them to stamp it. Unlikely to be a specific offence but surely inadvisable.

MagicSean

coylemj wrote: »

The effects are not the same. Driving whilst banned is a whole different ball game if you're caught whereas driving without having the licence on you is no worse than parking on a double-yellow line and in a lot of cases you'll get away with a telling off and you'll be allowed produce at your local Garda station with no prosecution.

The effects are the same. You will not be able to produce your licence on the spot or within 10 days and you will be prosecuted for driving without a licence. Exactly the same as if you had been disqualified. You are prosecuted for the exact same thing.

coylemj

MagicSean wrote: »

The effects are the same. You will not be able to produce your licence on the spot or within 10 days and you will be prosecuted for driving without a licence. Exactly the same as if you had been disqualified. You are prosecuted for the exact same thing.

I was answering the issue raised by this poster......

not even wrong wrote: »

You are not allowed drive in the Republic of Ireland without having your license with you, so you have already been de facto disqualified

What he's claiming is that not having the licence on your person means that you are de facto disqualified. In the case of someone who has a licence but simply doesn't have it on his person when stopped, I disagree.

MagicSean

coylemj wrote: »

I was answering the issue raised by this poster......



What he's claiming is that not having the licence on your person means that you are de facto disqualified. In the case of someone who has a licence but simply doesn't have it on his person when stopped, I disagree.

Why? They will face the same prosecution and penalties as someone who is disqualified.

coylemj

MagicSean wrote: »

Why? They will face the same prosecution and penalties as someone who is disqualified.

So what you're saying is that driving a car without having the licence with you is the same as driving while disqualified.

MagicSean

coylemj wrote: »

So what you're saying is that driving a car without having the licence with you is the same as driving while disqualified.

Driving a car without having a licence that you can produce within 10 days has the exact same legal consequences as driving while disqualified. You will get prosecuted for failing to produce on demand, failing to produce within ten days and driving without a valid licence. In addition, you will be tested under the lower drink driving limits.

coylemj

MagicSean wrote: »

Driving a car without having a licence that you can produce within 10 days has the exact same legal consequences as driving while disqualified. You will get prosecuted for failing to produce on demand, failing to produce within ten days and driving without a valid licence. In addition, you will be tested under the lower drink driving limits.

Read my post again.....

coylemj wrote: »

What he's claiming is that not having the licence on your person means that you are de facto disqualified. In the case of someone who has a licence but simply doesn't have it on his person when stopped, I disagree.

adam88

MagicSean wrote: »

coylemj wrote: »

The effects are not the same. Driving whilst banned is a whole different ball game if you're caught whereas driving without having the licence on you is no worse than parking on a double-yellow line and in a lot of cases you'll get away with a telling off and you'll be allowed produce at your local Garda station with no prosecution.

The effects are the same. You will not be able to produce your licence on the spot or within 10 days and you will be prosecuted for driving without a licence. Exactly the same as if you had been disqualified. You are prosecuted for the exact same thing.

No that would be classed as failure to produce a licence. Much the same as if you didn't bother the put up your tax disc when you get it. Your car is still taxed it's just that your displaying it

MagicSean

coylemj wrote: »

Read my post again.....

So you are just splitting hairs.

adam88 wrote: »

No that would be classed as failure to produce a licence. Much the same as if you didn't bother the put up your tax disc when you get it. Your car is still taxed it's just that your displaying it

You would still be prosecuted for having no licence as well. And the offence is failing to display a tax disk. It doesn't matter wether you have it or not you are prosecuted for the same thing.

coylemj

MagicSean wrote: »

Driving a car without having a licence that you can produce within 10 days has the exact same legal consequences as driving while disqualified.

Isn't there a separate offence of driving while disqualified? Which would make them different i.e. driving with no licence (e.g. expired) is not as serious an offence as driving while disqualified so they are not the same.

MagicSean

coylemj wrote: »

Isn't there a separate offence of driving while disqualified? Which would make them different i.e. driving with no licence (e.g. expired) is not as serious an offence as driving while disqualified so they are not the same.

Afaik the offence of driving while disqualified is no longer prosecuted because it revealed that the person had a previous conviction before he had even entered a plea to the current charge. The offence of driving without a valid licence is prosecuted instead.

tunedout

not even wrong wrote: »

So are you disputing that the law forbids the OP from driving without having her license with her, or are you just splitting hairs for the sake of it?

ya the law forbids her from doing that but it's only a minor offence like if you dont pay your television license for example but if she was disqualified here it would be much worse offence than just not bringing your license

jhegarty

Can the op not just apply for a duplicate license in Ireland ?

Their license if valid here, they just don't have the piece of paper.

ResearchWill

MagicSean wrote: »

The effects are the same. You will not be able to produce your licence on the spot or within 10 days and you will be prosecuted for driving without a licence. Exactly the same as if you had been disqualified. You are prosecuted for the exact same thing.

The effects are not the same, there are 3 possible offences in relation to the driving licence 1 failure to produce on demand 2 failure to produce in 10 days and 3 driving without a licence. In 3 it is a defence to show that you have had a valid licence even if same is not in your possession and you can get proof of same from your local motor tax office. A person who has lost his licence as in mislaid it is in the same position, as he is licences to drive but just does not have the physical licence. The first 2 only relate to a person who has a licence but for what ever reason does not produce it.

Driving while disqualified is a totally different offence while it is technically the same as driving while unlicensed to drive it is not the same as driving while not having in your possession your licence to drive.

In relation to drink driving that was raised while it is true that if you do not have your licence when driving you are tested as if you have a provisional or professional or no licence in other words the lower limit. If in court you can prove you had a valid licence issued but for what ever reason not in your possesion you have a defence to that charge.

Zambia

MagicSean wrote: »

Afaik the offence of driving while disqualified is no longer prosecuted because it revealed that the person had a previous conviction before he had even entered a plea to the current charge. The offence of driving without a valid licence is prosecuted instead.

Not that I dont believe this Sean or that its of your doing but it seems a bit silly.

A similar charge here would be "Drive While Suspended" this of course would indicate that the driver has prior offences (Reason for Suspension).

Are you saying that Police would not use this charge as it indicates a prior before a plea. So to take someones licence you actually have to get the physical licence. So you can after that time charge them with driving without a licence.

Condatis

This person has been disqualified from driving and should not be doing so. To have been disqualified a Court must have considered her a danger to other road users.

For a person to flout a Court order in this manner is disgraceful.

Apart from that issue her insurance cover may now be invalid. It is usually a condition of motor insurance policies that the insurer be notified of any convictions. Failure to comply is a serious matter and could result in insurance cover being declined by any insurer in the future.

Victor

Marcusm wrote: »

If you are going to follow this route, surely it would be better to disclose that the original has been surrendered. There should not be a bar on issuance of a new licence until the actual disqualification has effect in Ireland. To do otherwise, you would have to make a false statement to the Gardai and ask them to stamp it. Unlikely to be a specific offence but surely inadvisable.

Making a false statement to a Garda probably is an offence.

ResearchWill

Condatis wrote: »

This person has been disqualified from driving and should not be doing so. To have been disqualified a Court must have considered her a danger to other road users.

For a person to flout a Court order in this manner is disgraceful.

Apart from that issue her insurance cover may now be invalid. It is usually a condition of motor insurance policies that the insurer be notified of any convictions. Failure to comply is a serious matter and could result in insurance cover being declined by any insurer in the future.

The person is disquilified in a jurisdiction other than the one in which the licence was issued so to be disquilified here a court order must issue here so the person breaks no law by driving in Ireland under her Irish licence untill such time as a court acts here.

Your point on insurance is correct in so far as informing the insurance company of a disqualification, but under the insurance Regs a insurance company can only invalidate a policy of motor insurance by prior written notice sent by registered post. But the OP should under the upmost good faith principle inform her insurance company who may then withdraw cover, also cover will be more difficult in the future as this disqualification must be disclosed on any insurance proposal.

allroad

It is the insurance aspect which would worry me most, if I were the OP.
Failure to declare a disqualification (even in another jurisdiction) is probably reason enough to invalidate cover.
Finding a cute way to continue driving has the potential to lead to a disaster, should she have the misfortune to be involved in an accident, when the insurers refuse to accept any liability.

ResearchWill

allroad wrote: »

It is the insurance aspect which would worry me most, if I were the OP.
Failure to declare a disqualification (even in another jurisdiction) is probably reason enough to invalidate cover.
Finding a cute way to continue driving has the potential to lead to a disaster, should she have the misfortune to be involved in an accident, when the insurers refuse to accept any liability.

The motor insurance regulations in Ireland do not allow an insurance company to invalidate cover as per third parties post accident unless they did so by registered post before the incident. But there is nothing stopping such company on paying out going after insured and trying to get the money back.

allroad

ResearchWill wrote: »

The motor insurance regulations in Ireland do not allow an insurance company to invalidate cover as per third parties post accident unless they did so by registered post before the incident. But there is nothing stopping such company on paying out going after insured and trying to get the money back.

You might well be right, but isn't there a clause in all policies that requires you to inform the company of any material fact, or change of circumstances, which may have a bearing on your policy?

Even if this is not the case, I don't think being pursued by an insurance company would be anything short of a disaster.

ResearchWill

allroad wrote: »

You might well be right, but isn't there a clause in all policies that requires you to inform the company of any material fact, or change of circumstances, which may have a bearing on your policy?

Even if this is not the case, I don't think being pursued by an insurance company would be anything short of a disaster.

You are correct most insurance policy require a notification of change in circumstances even if it is not on policy the utmost good faith rule would apply. In say a house insurance policy if you did not inform the insurance company of a serious change in use you may not be covered. In motor insurance to protect the General Public a motor policy can not be invalidated post accident, of course if it was invalidated correctly before the accident the person is an uninsured driver and so the MIBI rules apply.

Yes the insurance company chasing a person for the payout would be a disaster. Not sure how successful they would be but rather not take the risk.

The OP really needs to get good legal advice on all of this as I stated earlier.

slimjimmc

Why hasn't the OP got her licence back, that's what I'm wondering.

She surrendered it to the NI authorities but do they have the legal right to hold on to what is an official state document of the Republic of Ireland, surely it should be returned to the Irish Government immediately after the conviction? Assuming the licence was returned to Ireland, then on what grounds has it not been returned to the OP, she is not disqualified to drive here (I understand there is no legal entitlement to a driving licence and the relevant Minister can revoke it)

MagicSean

ResearchWill wrote: »

The effects are not the same, there are 3 possible offences in relation to the driving licence 1 failure to produce on demand 2 failure to produce in 10 days and 3 driving without a licence. In 3 it is a defence to show that you have had a valid licence even if same is not in your possession and you can get proof of same from your local motor tax office. A person who has lost his licence as in mislaid it is in the same position, as he is licences to drive but just does not have the physical licence. The first 2 only relate to a person who has a licence but for what ever reason does not produce it.

Driving while disqualified is a totally different offence while it is technically the same as driving while unlicensed to drive it is not the same as driving while not having in your possession your licence to drive.

In relation to drink driving that was raised while it is true that if you do not have your licence when driving you are tested as if you have a provisional or professional or no licence in other words the lower limit. If in court you can prove you had a valid licence issued but for what ever reason not in your possesion you have a defence to that charge.

But at some point the judge will say "OK I see you have a licence issued but why have you not produced it to the court?" At which point the ops only explanation can be that they were disqualified in NI and there licence was taken to be passed on to the authorities here for mutual recognition. God only knows what a judge will decide to do with this information. He could accept the defence or he might reject it.

Zambia wrote: »

Not that I dont believe this Sean or that its of your doing but it seems a bit silly.

A similar charge here would be "Drive While Suspended" this of course would indicate that the driver has prior offences (Reason for Suspension).

Are you saying that Police would not use this charge as it indicates a prior before a plea. So to take someones licence you actually have to get the physical licence. So you can after that time charge them with driving without a licence.

At the end of the day there is no tangable difference between the two offences. Driving without a licence is probably easier to prove and the disqualification will be revealed along with other previous convictions and will be taken into account in sentencing.

ResearchWill

MagicSean wrote: »

But at some point the judge will say "OK I see you have a licence issued but why have you not produced it to the court?" At which point the ops only explanation can be that they were disqualified in NI and there licence was taken to be passed on to the authorities here for mutual recognition. God only knows what a judge will decide to do with this information. He could accept the defence or he might reject it.



At the end of the day there is no tangable difference between the two offences. Driving without a licence is probably easier to prove and the disqualification will be revealed along with other previous convictions and will be taken into account in sentencing.

The fact you have a licence issued can be proved by calling an official from the county council who can confirm a licence was issued is in date and has not been disqualified.

The state can prove a forged licence by the reverse.

Our man in Havana

Surely until a person is disqualified by the Irish courts there is nothing to stop the OP from applying for another licence?

ResearchWill

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Surely until a person is disqualified by the Irish courts there is nothing to stop the OP from applying for another licence?

Yup you are correct and as long as the OP gives the real reason there should be no problem.

MagicSean

When applying for a replacement licence you have to state wether it was lost, stolen or destroyed. Which option would you suggest?

Our man in Havana

Stolen.

Procrastastudy

Destroyed! Atleast then if the manure hits the air conditioning she can claim oh I thought they destroyed it because I was driving like an idiot!

Marcusm

MagicSean wrote: »

When applying for a replacement licence you have to state wether it was lost, stolen or destroyed. Which option would you suggest?

He should indicate that it has been lost; the word "lost" is not synonymous with "misplaced" but actually indicates that you no longer have control or possession of it. I would agree (see my earlier post), that the OP should disclose the circumstances in which it has been lost.

ResearchWill

MagicSean wrote: »

When applying for a replacement licence you have to state wether it was lost, stolen or destroyed. Which option would you suggest?

He could always say none of the above and write a sentence to explain what happened.