Cost of Digital-to-Analogue converters

skinthegoat

In a friend's flat in Spain last year we changed from analogue to digital reception. We left the old aerial in place, and simply interposed a converter (75ohm input, SCART output) between aerial and (ten-year-old) TV. Everything worked fine and we now had great reception on 20-odd channels. The thing is, the converter cost €20 in a supermarket, yet I'm being told that I should have to pay upwards of €60 here. Am I missing something, or is this yet another state-sponsored rip-off?

Knasher

Well the important thing to understand is that digital systems don't have to be all the same. I'd guess that the Spanish system was using MPEG2 and possibly broadcasting standard definition backups for any high definition channels. RTENL is using H264 and isn't rebroadcasting in SD. This means that any box needs to be able to down convert for the HD channels as well as needing the higher processing power for H264. Hence the higher price.

watty

Also MOST things are more expensive here than Spain, less middle men and bigger market.

The Spanish box is SD MPEG2 only. Our boxes are HD & SD, MPEG4 and MPEG2 (though we don't use MPEG2 video at all).

Compare UK Freeview and UK "Freeview HD" prices. You'll pay £20 for a now obsolete "Freeview" box and £70 for a "Freeview HD" box.

skinthegoat

I see. I'm grateful for the responses and explanations, but disappointed to find mysewlf, as I see it, at the end of yet another rip-off. No doubt someone in RTE had their palms crossed with silver for this one. To be honest, I don't want any of this fancy HD/3D crap, just a picture that I can watch. I'm an OAP and in no position to start replacing TVs or aerials. This also means, I presume, that without installing a satellite dish I'll no longer be able to get the cross-channel stations. Think I'll just shag the TV in the bin, order a coffin and jump in.

The Cush

skinthegoat wrote: »

I'm an OAP and in no position to start replacing TVs or aerials. This also means, I presume, that without installing a satellite dish I'll no longer be able to get the cross-channel stations. Think I'll just shag the TV in the bin, order a coffin and jump in.

Depending on your location your aerial(s) may be OK for the switchover to digital.

If you can receive the UK channels now via the aerial they should continue to be available with the correct digital receiver after analogue switchoff.

To assist you further we would have to know your approx location, how may aerials you have, your nearest Irish and UK transmitters, if known.

dohouch

skinthegoat wrote: »

In a friend's flat in Spain last year we changed from analogue to digital reception. We left the old aerial in place, and simply interposed a converter (75ohm input, SCART output) between aerial and (ten-year-old) TV. Everything worked fine and we now had great reception on 20-odd channels. The thing is, the converter cost €20 in a supermarket, yet I'm being told that I should have to pay upwards of €60 here. Am I missing something, or is this yet another state-sponsored rip-off?

Was wondering the same thing re Spanish price of approx €20.

I think also there were advertisements connected with the EPG, as if to have a full EPG service one had to upgrade and subscribe.

watty

You'll find MANY things cheaper in Spain. But you are comparing Seville Oranges with Louth Apples as it's not the same kind of receiver.

skinthegoat

Watty has a point, but why are we being saddled with a needlessly complex and expensive system, one which is not even compatible with that of our nearest neighbour. Once again, it seems to my simple mind, someone in a public body here is able to make a decision which has the happy consequence of enriching a particular group at the expense of the general public. And given the endemic nature of corruption in public life here, I find myself unable to put two and two together without getting at least four and a half. The fact that people in Ireland are going to be obliged to pay here FOUR TIMES what a Spaniard pays is, whatever way you look at it, nothing short of a scandal.

watty

Our nearest neighbour has "obsoleted" their system because it doesn't do HD. They have a MORE complex system for HD as they have to simulcast HD versions. The newer UK system wasn't ready for the start of the Irish Rollout.

Also the UK system is unique and proprietary secret "D-Book" based. We do however use the same MP2 and AAC audio, the same version of MHEG5 and same version of MPEG4 as their new HD system. We also use MPEG4 for SD, which they don't as it wasn't invented when DTT started over 10 years ago. After 2012 the UK may increasingly add MPEG4 SD for new Local TV services in England similar to the N.I. Minimux.

We are using an Open standard we have input into. See www.saortv.info

skinthegoat

Help!! MPEG2, MPEG4, H264, SD, HD, Freeview, Saorview, EPG, D-Book, AAC MHEG5 and Minimux!! The bottom line, I suppose, is that all this is a done deal over which I have no control - unless I opt out altogether, but then how would I see Rovers away games of a Friday night? Sorry if I've come across all grumpy over this, I've noticed lately that I seem to be turning into Victor Meldrew: perhaps we all do, one way and another, at a certain age; but I do appreciate all the help and advice. Thanks again - Alan

The Cush

The price quoted for a Spanish DTT receiver here is €20, I assume that's for an SD box. The Spanish HD channels use the same standard as Saorview i.e. DVB-T/MPEG4, does anyone know the price of an equivalent Spanish HD DTT receiver.

watty

And even then, stuff in Spain is cheaper than stuff in Ireland. Here often stuff is imported via UK as if we are a UK province.

Huge rents by greedy developers make retail more expensive.

Also Irish sea is almost as expensive to cross as UK to Greece! UK mainland/Ireland is one of the most expensive borders in Europe to ship across.

BowWow

Quick Question -
Going to Spain tomorrow, If I buy a Spanish HD receiver, will it work here? I'm not bothered about Text, MHEG5 etc.

Compton

BowWow wrote: »

Quick Question -
Going to Spain tomorrow, If I buy a Spanish HD receiver, will it work here? I'm not bothered about Text, MHEG5 etc.

It depends on the spec of the box. MPEG4 H.264 is required for HD

watty

You will never ever know how badly it works, as may seem to work till it lets you down. It's a false saving as they are not compatible, even if they do decode the HD.

MPEG4 H.264 L4 is required for HD, Irish SD uses MPEG4 H.264 L3

Fuzzy Clam

watty wrote: »

You will never ever know how badly it works, as may seem to work till it lets you down.

Wha!
It will seem to work????
Thats tech talk, is it?

watty

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77623448&postcount=13

Hotblack Desiato

skinthegoat wrote: »

Watty has a point, but why are we being saddled with a needlessly complex and expensive system, one which is not even compatible with that of our nearest neighbour. Once again, it seems to my simple mind, someone in a public body here is able to make a decision which has the happy consequence of enriching a particular group at the expense of the general public. And given the endemic nature of corruption in public life here, I find myself unable to put two and two together without getting at least four and a half. The fact that people in Ireland are going to be obliged to pay here FOUR TIMES what a Spaniard pays is, whatever way you look at it, nothing short of a scandal.

€20 vs €60 is three times, not four times and I would expect the cheapest boxes here to get a little cheaper in a few months.
Apples vs oranges comparison, as Watty said the real comparison is with a Freeview HD box, as all Saorview boxes need to do HD. This is a good thing because, coming late to the digital TV party, we didn't set up an SD-only system that was , frankly, a bit crap, and then a few years later require everyone who'd already bought Freeview TVs/boxes to upgrade again just to get HD.

The only people being enriched are the cowboy aerial installers ('digital aerials' etc.) and the TV retailers who dumped obsolete UK stock here, and/or are implying that people need to buy expensive new TVs just to get Saorview when a cheap box will do.

I wasn't born then, but I'm quite sure that when RTE set up their first B/W 625 line transmitters, there were people complaining along the lines of, '405 lines is good enough for the UK', 'unnecessary complexity', 'sets more expensive' etc. etc.

Sam Russell

Another rip-off attempt is Sky suggesting that going digital requires a Sky subscription.

And no-one is saying anything about it. [RTE, RTE NL, DCNER, BAI, Comreg]

:mad:

watty

The UK wasted MILLIONS by reactivating 300 to 2000 off 405 sets (no one knows) rather than going straight to 625 after WWWII as Germany & Russia did. Ireland wasted a lot doing 625 WELL as 405 in Border & East Coast in 1962. 625 was in existence in 1946 and rolling out in 1948.

So RTE *DID* accommodate people that had already bought 405 sets for UK transmissions. They are not about to make that mistake again. UK had already done 625 tests before 1961 and launched 625 in 1967.

It's pretty stupid to make a quick short term decision to suit a few people rather than the proper solution.

In real terms even a 42" HDTV is cheaper today than an ordinary Radio was in 1954!

The box cost isn't a big issue. What's a TV licence (every year!) €156?
Sky sub is average over €400 per customer p.a.
82% of People have Sky, UPC or other expensive pay TV, 3 months is more than a box that might last 5 to 10 years.

watty

The UK wasted MILLIONS by reactivating 300 to 2000 off 405 sets (no one knows) rather than going straight to 625 after WWWII as Germany & Russia did. Ireland wasted a lot doing 625 WELL as 405 in Border & East Coast in 1962. 625 was in existence in 1946 and rolling out in 1948.

So RTE *DID* accommodate people that had already bought 405 sets for UK transmissions. They are not about to make that mistake again. UK had already done 625 tests before 1961 and launched 625 in 1967.

It's pretty stupid to make a quick short term decision to suit a few people rather than the proper solution.

In real terms even a 42" HDTV is cheaper today than an ordinary Radio was in 1954!

The box cost isn't a big issue. What's a TV licence (every year!) €156?
Sky sub is average over €400 per customer p.a.
82% of People have Sky, UPC or other expensive pay TV, 3 months is more than a box that might last 5 to 10 years.

Hotblack Desiato

Perhaps, Watty, but the few well-to-do people in the 'Home Counties' who could receive, and afford, TV in those days would have been rather influential!

Edit: they launched 625 in the UK in 1964 but that was BBC2 only, of course. We beat them to it

Sam Russell

ninja900 wrote: »

Edit: they launched 625 in the UK in 1964 but that was BBC2 only, of course. We beat them to it

That is why the version we use PAL-I as it was first used in Ireland.

watty

ninja900 wrote: »

Perhaps, Watty, but the few well-to-do people in the 'Home Counties' who could receive, and afford, TV in those days would have been rather influential!

Edit: they launched 625 in the UK in 1964 but that was BBC2 only, of course. We beat them to it

Ok, that makes my point even more of the stupidity of running 405 Transmitters.
Stupidity repeated over the Deflectors and MMDS debacle.

It's time Irish Politics grew up.

Hotblack Desiato

Irish politics won't grow up until Irish voters grow up!
This is the country where a TD was elected on a single-issue platform of supporting illegal rebroadcasting, after all...

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

The UK wasted MILLIONS by reactivating 300 to 2000 off 405 sets (no one knows) rather than going straight to 625 after WWWII as Germany & Russia did. Ireland wasted a lot doing 625 WELL as 405 in Border & East Coast in 1962. 625 was in existence in 1946 and rolling out in 1948.

So RTE *DID* accommodate people that had already bought 405 sets for UK transmissions. They are not about to make that mistake again. UK had already done 625 tests before 1961 and launched 625 in 1967.

It's pretty stupid to make a quick short term decision to suit a few people rather than the proper solution.

In real terms even a 42" HDTV is cheaper today than an ordinary Radio was in 1954!

The box cost isn't a big issue. What's a TV licence (every year!) €156?
Sky sub is average over €400 per customer p.a.
82% of People have Sky, UPC or other expensive pay TV, 3 months is more than a box that might last 5 to 10 years.

There was no alternative open to RTE when they started up. A lot of existing sets were 405 only, and there were no dual standard ones until BBC 2 started. Therefore, the already installed base who could receive BBC and ITV would have had to have two seperate TVs to receive RTE. TVs were very expensive then and they were not common at all. Given RTE were only broadcasting a few hours a day, most would have ignored the service, and the adverts that paid towards it.

It was easier to do dual illumination than try and force the 625 only service.

It is not the same today, as a STB is small money and simple to install and use. It would have been better if we could have used the UK D Book standard, but since they were expecting Boxer to be the Pay TV contractor, they went with Nordig. Perhaps RTE NL/DCNER should try to persuade the UK to go with a Nordig inspired modification to their standard to allow mutual operation. [Two chances].

watty

You make my point Sam.

What ever argument there was for 405 in 1946 and 1962 (both of which are arguable, it the point) there is no valid argument for MPEG2 SD only boxes. The only "argument" is really DVB-T vs DVB-T2. The DVB-T2 was still in test when Ireland was supposed to be rolling out. South Africa nearly switched to ISDB instead of DVB-T + MPEG4, which delayed them 2 years, so they are rolling out DVB-T2 rather than DVB-T (but MPEG4 & MHEG5, though not UK D-Book).

The D-Book is a closed UK standard. No-one else is likely to use it.

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

The D-Book is a closed UK standard. No-one else is likely to use it.

There is no reason why the UK D Book does not move over to be Nordig 2.2. There are not that many differences, and all could be overcome by 'adjustment' in the next release. The NI situation would be enough reason. Interoperability is all that is required. The known problems like LCN and summertime could certainly be overcome. The good side for us would be the use of DVB-T2 tuners in Saorview certified boxes for future use.

watty

It's up to the UK...

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

It's up to the UK...

Of course, but they could easily make modifications to the definitions that would improve the spec, certainly from our point of view. Maybe RTE NL could make a few requests.