aeroboard fullfill cavity

esox28

hey,

has anyone here used or installed the full-fill cavity wall insulation I have come across a product from aeroboard, http://www.aerobord.ie/architectzone.html
any options on a 150mm cavity block wall.

beyondpassive

Its just expanded polystyrene, you'd get a better U-Value from 145mm PIR products. These can be pricey, I prefer an 80 board with a 60mm board outside with joints taped. Why not increase the cavity to 200mm+ and fill with bonded bead which is also polystyrene, that way you can utilise the thermal inertia of the internal block (provided you have thermal break in the rising walls). This has the advantage that blocklayers are not installing insulation, the bead will fill any awkward geometry also, and by leaving a block out at the end of a cavity you can clean out the cavity trays. Everything we're doing now is at least 250mm cavity. Fuel prices are only going one way, this is a job for the longterm.

sydthebeat

any 'board' type insulation suffers from the same issues across the board.

mainly, its performance is down to care in installation. Any gaps between boards, at corners, at openings etc will severely reduce the performance and efficiency of the insulation.

I think its safe to say that the consensus is that pumped polystyrene beads perform better in most circumstances due to the mechanical method of installation, rather than manual.

If you want to maximise the performance of board insulation, and minimise risk of bad installation, then you can take steps during the block build, steps that may be considered "off standard". This would involve building up the inner face 2 or 3 courses higher than the out leaf. that means you can expose the joints in the insulation boards so you can take remedial measures such as taping the boards together, or filling in and gaps and cleaning off mortar snots etc.

esox28

I have foundation completed to sub-floor level plus with the cavity set at 150mm my options are limited, I have quotes for 150mm 'cavity therm' board of around 8k but costs aside using this product will achieve 0 .12w/m* without the use of an internal insulated board availing of the thermal inertia of the blockwork, with an air tight house all seems rosy...apart form when it come to installing the stuff. which there is a whole set of problems.

Im not sure about this but pumping a 150mm wouldent give the required .20w/m*? where as with this 'aeromark' cavity fill board the value of 0.2w/m*k is given just meeting on the regs and with installing an internal insulated liner board would give a over all value of 0.15w/m*k approx.

irish building reg are going to keep changing, getting more towards passive level im think.

sydthebeat

esox28 wrote: »

Im not sure about this but pumping a 150mm wouldent give the required .20w/m*? .

it does give a 0.2 u value

PS dont believe u values as indicated on sales brochures, they are always skewed to the betterment of the product.

you say

just meeting on the regs

have you had a provision BER assessment done to see what you have to do to meet regs?

esox28

I have asked my engineer to sort out the provisional ber still wating would this be of mush advantage to deciding on cavity wall insualtion?

BryanF

esox28 wrote: »

I have asked my engineer to sort out the provisional ber still wating would this be of mush advantage to deciding on cavity wall insualtion?

YES

esox28

surely you just put in as much wall insualtion as you can afford or are confedent is not going to affect the structure ie 300mm cavity wall not the most stable structure in the country!

sydthebeat

esox28 wrote: »

surely you just put in as much wall insualtion as you can afford..........!

god no!

Id advise you to stop now and insist that the BER assessment is done ASAP so you KNOW what materials you must incorporate to comply with MINIMUM regulations.

To be honest the building structure and, as a by product, the insulation materials and thickness, are most significantly affected by your heating system and fuel.

for example, should you decide to use a wood pellet boiler its unlikely that 150mm pumped cavity would be good enough and insulated plasterboards internally would probably be the most cost effective ways get towards compliance. Similarly an oil boiler might allw you use a 150 pumped cavity, but youd need to provide significant solar collectors which you wouldnt with a wood pellet boiler...

EVERYTHING IS CONNECTED, NOTHING IS INDIVIDUAL.

you need to understand this when building, if you make a choice in one element it affects every other element... DG or TG will affect the amount of solar required. The amount of solar required will affect your cylinder size. the cylinder size will affect you ability to provide space heating by solar, which in turn affects overall energy demand, which affects your building structural elements etc

esox28

yea makes some sence to me but, when the engineer is completeing the BER he ask me for all the elements of the house. windows uvalue, walls insulation amount of, roof insulation amount of and so on, but woulent the insualation salesman or hardware store guy would be able to tell you what meets the current regs.

would a Ber show a heat loss calculation for individual rooms so you could size the heating accordingly be it rads or underfloor ?

as a plumber I understand that solar thermal for domestic hot water is currently sized towards /person as set down by seai im not sure but I dont think a Ber would have any baring on this.

I think what i am trying to say right or wrong is that the Ber has a place but is by no way the beeall and endall, the Ber is using the same uvalues and the product 'insulation' manufractures quote..

PS dont believe u values as indicated on sales brochures, they are always skewed to the betterment of the product

is the engineer not using these same uvalues??

sydthebeat

esox28 wrote: »

........ but woulent the insualation salesman or hardware store guy would be able to tell you what meets the current regs.

absolutely and unequivocally NO !!!

esox28 wrote: »

would a Ber show a heat loss calculation for individual rooms so you could size the heating accordingly be it rads or underfloor ?

no... not for individual rooms, but it can be used to approximately size the heating system and then divide this by the rooms / no. of rads required.

The important figure here is the heat demand;.. sizes and quantities can be derived from this.

esox28 wrote: »

as a plumber I understand that solar thermal for domestic hot water is currently sized towards /person as set down by seai im not sure but I dont think a Ber would have any baring on this.

its the building regulations that have a bareing.... the DEAP assessment (which is also the BER methodology) is the ONLY way of finding out if you comply or not. Nothing (of any consequence) is actually set down by SEAI. Its all about the regulations.

esox28 wrote: »

I think what i am trying to say right or wrong is that the Ber has a place but is by no way the beeall and endall, the Ber is using the same uvalues and the product 'insulation' manufractures quote.. is the engineer not using these same uvalues??

if your engineer is worth his salt and is doing a "provisional BER" for you, he should be able to advise you on all this. he shold be able to say, well if you install triple glazed windows then you dont need to dryline etc
The idea behind doing the provisional assessment NOW is that you can play around with different constructions and specifications to find the one most suited and economical to your situation, and also complying with regulations at the same time.

You engineer should be proficient enough to be able to calculate the U values for himself and not rely on sales brochures, which in many cases ive seen, are incorrect in the normal "every day" situation.

In this effect, the "BER" is actually the be-all and end-all as it is the ONLY way of checking that what you are doing complies with minimum regulations.

sydthebeat

esox, as a practitioner in the industry its vitals you understand this principle.

this document is extremely pertinent to your trade

If you are pricing up a job, you need to know technical things such as:
how many zones are required?
are delay thermostats required?
are load or weather compensator required?
is a cylinder stat required?
is the solar contributing to the space heating?

plus many more.

These question are dealt with in the 'provisional BER' (or more correctly the DEAP building reg compliance check process) process and the assessor should have the answers.