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An irish law degree

  • 07-03-2012 12:41am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 131 ✭✭


    I am leaving cert student hoping to do law next year, but I've just been wondering if an irish law degree would hold much value abroad, since your mainly studying the irish legal system.


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    You'll mainly be studying the English Legal system in many subjects.

    Most of the English Speaking world is Common Law (The system Ireland uses and is based on English Law) so a general law degree will be grand. You have to ask yourself what you want to do though because there is probably a better option than studying law.

    If you want to practise abroad then it can get quite complicated.

    For the love of GOD don't study law because you "got the points" or "Daddy told me to" or because you think it's going to pull women. Just do a few searches on how many happy people are around here and what the career prospects are like. If you really want a few bob become a plumber!

    If you genuinely have an interest and dont mind reading 250 plus pages (on a quiet week!) of sometimes verbose jargon contradicting itself then rock on. Occasionally Lord Denning will come along and brighten your day.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,768 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Occasionally Lord Denning will come along and brighten your day.
    Only when burnt in effigy :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    I certainly wouldn't study straight law if I were you - it's not a massive advantage in going on to become a solicitor or barrister, and it won't transfer particularly well. Any degree qualifies you to take the exams, and the FE1s in particular are more about slog and committment, even for law graduates. I have friends in the professions who've studied the likes of human genetics or engineering, and their backgrounds seem to have been a distinct advantage.

    Imho, something like law and accounting, business and legal studies, etc, would be a better choice than a BCL or LLB, unless you have a particular passion for academic law, and are looking at that kind of career path. Also, you need to make damn sure that you come out with a 2:1 at the very least.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    Just to echo Benway slightly - bear in mind many other jurisdictions study law at post graduate level. Under graduate law degrees in Ireland or the UK are not held in the same esteem as say a US law degree which is more akin to the BL qualification here. I'm also yet to come across a Barrister, that law was their first degree. That's not to say there aren't its just very common to do another degree first.

    Don't let that put you off if you genuinely have an interest though as there is nothing to stop you doing Law at undergrad and then a Masters in a more general field.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,632 ✭✭✭NoQuarter


    I would also agree with benway on this one. I have a pure law degree and while that may be the best route to take if you are heading down to the bar, if you are looking at becoming a solicitor or would like to try get into the top law firms, then you should get business in your degree. Business and law all the way, that is my one main disadvantage I feel!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 172 ✭✭clashburke


    Occasionally Lord Denning will come along and brighten your day.

    i lol'd at dat!!:pac:
    im doing law atm and hate any quote of his!!:mad::eek::D:D


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    J I'm also yet to come across a Barrister, that law was their first degree. That's not to say there aren't its just very common to do another degree first.

    Some of the barrister/lecturers in Griffith have law as their first degree. Look at www.lawlibrary.ie and see how many barristers only have law degrees


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    Some of the barrister/lecturers in Griffith have law as their first degree. Look at www.lawlibrary.ie and see how many barristers only have law degrees

    I have to admit - although I know some of them have BLs I consider them lecturers. When I say barristers I mean the various ones that come in for mooting, debating guest lecturers and previous alumni.

    You're absolutely right though as some of them do practise just never clicked... must have been the lack of three piece suits.

    To be fair though out of the lecturers I have only one is a "pure law" barrister. The other is a BCOMM then bar.

    EDIT: on Denning surely everyone likes how he makes things up as he goes along :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    I have a pure law degree too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    OP - I'm wrong plenty of barristers have pure law degrees :)

    The rest of the stuff I stand by - dont do it unless you have a genuine interest and expect to be shot down in flames when you say things and you haven't checked your facts. Also expect to be shot down even when you have checked your facts because someone will always have a different point of view. If you enjoy that then definitely do a law degree!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    I don't disagree that a mixed degree is not preferable in many ways to a pure law degree. In other respects, I'm sure it doesn't make a huge difference once you've done the Inns/Blackhall.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,549 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Practising lawyers will deride academic law as being arbitrary, detached and of limited use in real cases.

    Academics will counter that the lack of academic appreciation amongst practising lawyers means that they focus too much on procedure and evidence and not enough on justice and substantive law and this leads to a very conservative standard of jurisprudence.

    The reality, I think, is somewhere in the middle but there is benefit to an academic law degree to give practising lawyers a broader perspective.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 131 ✭✭SlyBacon93


    Thanks for the replies.
    The main reasons I want to do law is I heard it's a useful undergraduate degree to have, also I'm fairly decent at subjects like history, english and classics and law was recommended to me. I haven't really looked passed an undergraduate degree, as in I haven't really looked at any career in particular so something general an useful was what I was looking for and I thought law provided that


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 7,441 Mod ✭✭✭✭XxMCRxBabyxX


    SlyBacon93 wrote: »
    Thanks for the replies.
    The main reasons I want to do law is I heard it's a useful undergraduate degree to have, also I'm fairly decent at subjects like history, english and classics and law was recommended to me. I haven't really looked passed an undergraduate degree, as in I haven't really looked at any career in particular so something general an useful was what I was looking for and I thought law provided that

    Honestly, if you're not actually that interested in law, which by the sounds of it, you're not, I wouldn't recommend studying it. You stand a high chance of hating it and dropping out.

    I don't think law is something you can properly do well in without having a genuine interest in the subject


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭paky


    Honestly, if you're not actually that interested in law, which by the sounds of it, you're not, I wouldn't recommend studying it. You stand a high chance of hating it and dropping out.

    how in gods name did you come to that conclusion? you must enjoy shooting down young peoples ambitions. op dont listen to her advise. she doesnt enjoy working in the corporate world and has now developed a negative competitive streak about her
    I don't think law is something you can properly do well in without having a genuine interest in the subject

    not true at all. law isn't that complex. if you understand the basics you'll do fine


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 7,441 Mod ✭✭✭✭XxMCRxBabyxX


    paky wrote: »
    Honestly, if you're not actually that interested in law, which by the sounds of it, you're not, I wouldn't recommend studying it. You stand a high chance of hating it and dropping out.

    how in gods name did you come to that conclusion? you must enjoy shooting down young peoples ambitions. op dont listen to her advise. she doesnt enjoy working in the corporate world and has now developed a negative competitive streak about her
    I don't think law is something you can properly do well in without having a genuine interest in the subject

    not true at all. law isn't that complex. if you understand the basics you'll do fine

    I'm going by the experiences of those I know paky. I'm not shooting down any ambitions (and if the OP thinks I am, I apologise)

    And FYI I love the work I do and I plan to stick with it. I also don't see why I would need to be competitive. Not that that has anything to do with anything.

    Those who enjoy the subject tend to do better. You'll find that with anything.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    Why on earth would you do a law degree if you didn't have a genuine interest! Why not spend half a day actually thinking about what you want to do - even what your favourite subject is and do that. If its and ego points thing why not do medicine that will transfer to any country.

    If you're doing well in English or History go down that route. If you don't have a geniune interest - and that can include doing it becuase you want and edge in your current field - you are going to get pissed off you narrowed your field to law only.

    To really engage with a law degree you have to do external projects, moot - maybe debate, there will be some public speaking in most law degrees even if it is just a class moot. This in itself is a killer for some people who simply don't want to speak in front of people and another example of where a geniune interest helps.

    Yes yes there are people who at 25 or older went back and only studied for 2 weeks of the term and got a 2:1. Those people fall into two groups people who are very smart and have excellent memory and the maturity that come with even a few extra years, and liars.

    If the extent of your reasearch into one of your most important decisions you are ever going to make had been to post on boards or becuase someone has recomened you do law you really need to go away and have a good think!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 131 ✭✭SlyBacon93


    Some fairly mixed opinions. In all honesty I don't really enjoy history or english to the extent that I would study it in college. Some people here are saying that I must have a " passion" for law, but what does that depend on. My subjects are the only think that show an idication of what I'm good at or have a passion for. I've also given it quiet some thought and still have come to the conclusion that law might suit me. It isn't that easy deciding what course you want to do in college so give me a break.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭chops018


    From my own perspective of doing "pure" law I found that I liked it, I didn't have a love for it, but I did enjoy it. I still do enjoy it. It can be frustrating from time to time, but it can be very rewarding. I do agree with some posters that maybe Business with Law might be a better route to take and if you find you love the law part you can always transfer into a pure law degree.

    You will never know if you have a big interest in the area till you start doing it, if you feel it is something you might like then go for it. If it turns out you don't then no biggy, people drop out all the time, if you have the points you can always go back and do something else, especially if you are young.

    I didn't necessarily have a "passion" for law before doing it, it is something you acquire while doing it I think, however you do have to have some interest in the area beforehand though. I didn't have a huge interest before I picked it, went on to do it, found I liked parts and didn't like other parts. But got through it the degree, went on to do a Master's in the area and absolutely loved it. Enjoyed every bit of research I did for my Master's and as I said you get great satisfaction when you do well in something that gives you a bit of interest. I don't think someone has to have a passion for something to succeed at it, a general interest will do in my opinion. I know this is an abstract example, but someone can have an interest in football or movies, but not have a passion for it and enjoy parts of it. A passion for something will always be an advantage though. I don't think I have a passion for law per se, but I do have a huge interest in it.

    At the end of the day you are doing your leaving cert and have to concentrate on that, put down on the cao what you feel you have some sort of interest in: if it's law then put down law, history then put down history etc. You won't fully know if you like something until you're in the thick of it in my opinion. As was said above, have a think of what you might be interested in and apply. If you get it then enjoy college life and hopefully you enjoy the area you've chosen also, if not don't worry, most people can end up changing their mind. I know a person who got a business degree and decided to do a postgrad course in primary school teaching. As far as I know pure law wouldn't restrict doing this and it wouldn't restrict applying for a lot of postgrad courses whatever way they may vary from law. As said above and I'll say it again if you are unsure then business and law might be best, even history and law or something like that, then if you are really enjoying law transfer over to a pure law degree. Hope this helps, good luck with deciding.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 191 ✭✭Avatargh


    Just on all this...

    There is a huge difference between law as its taught, and how it is applied in practice.

    By this, all that I mean is that whereas one may not necessarily cuddle up in bed with an employment law textbook, the actual practice of employment law may be rewarding and interesting in a way reading about it (without the human context) isn't. I'm pretty alright at this stuff, but I certainly wouldn't find much pleasure in abstractly reading some new text on jurisdiction. I may, on the other hand, find a lot of reward in applying that text to a human problem.

    Where I'm going with this, I suppose, is that whereas law can be quite un-interesting in the paper sense, I wouldn't let that dissuade anyone until they had already decided that the actual practice is un-interesting as well. As with all things, full information is best, and you could fish about seeing can you get any experience of practice to get the full picture.

    I'm not sure if this adds to Chops018's points...but there you go.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 131 ✭✭SlyBacon93


    chops018 wrote: »
    From my own perspective of doing "pure" law I found that I liked it, I didn't have a love for it, but I did enjoy it. I still do enjoy it. It can be frustrating from time to time, but it can be very rewarding. I do agree with some posters that maybe Business with Law might be a better route to take and if you find you love the law part you can always transfer into a pure law degree.

    You will never know if you have a big interest in the area till you start doing it, if you feel it is something you might like then go for it. If it turns out you don't then no biggy, people drop out all the time, if you have the points you can always go back and do something else, especially if you are young.

    I didn't necessarily have a "passion" for law before doing it, it is something you acquire while doing it I think, however you do have to have some interest in the area beforehand though. I didn't have a huge interest before I picked it, went on to do it, found I liked parts and didn't like other parts. But got through it the degree, went on to do a Master's in the area and absolutely loved it. Enjoyed every bit of research I did for it and as I said you get great satisfaction when you do well in something that gives you a bit of interest. I don't think someone has to have a passion for something to succeed at it, a general interest will do in my opinion. I know this is an abstract example, but someone can have an interest in football or movies, but not have a passion for it and enjoy parts of it. A passion for something will always be an advantage though. I don't think I have a passion for law per se, but I do have a huge interest in it.

    At the end of the day you are doing your leaving cert and have to concentrate on that, put down on the cao what you feel you have some sort of interest in: if it's law then put down law, history then put down history etc. You won't fully know if you like something until you're in the thick of it in my opinion. As was said above, have a think of what you might be interested in and apply. If you get it then enjoy college life and hopefully you enjoy the area you've chosen also, if not don't worry, most people can end up changing their mind. I know people who got business degree's and have decided to do a postgrad course in primary school teaching (as far as I know pure law wouldn't restrict this, however secondary it might, so as said above and I'll say it again if you are unsure then business and law might be best, even history and law or something like that then if you are really enjoying law transfer over to a pure law degree). Hope this helps, good luck with deciding.
    Thanks a lot! ,a really informative reply :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭chops018


    Avatargh wrote: »
    Just on all this...

    There is a huge difference between law as its taught, and how it is applied in practice.

    By this, all that I mean is that whereas one may not necessarily cuddle up in bed with an employment law textbook, the actual practice of employment law may be rewarding and interesting in a way reading about it (without the human context) isn't. I'm pretty alright at this stuff, but I certainly wouldn't find much pleasure in abstractly reading some new text on jurisdiction. I may, on the other hand, find a lot of reward in applying that text to a human problem.

    Where I'm going with this, I suppose, is that whereas law can be quite un-interesting in the paper sense, I wouldn't let that dissuade anyone until they had already decided that the actual practice is un-interesting as well. As with all things, full information is best, and you could fish about seeing can you get any experience of practice to get the full picture.

    I'm not sure if this adds to Chops018's points...but there you go.

    Fully agree with you there Avatargh. I don't know first hand on practising law, but I hear it can be very different from academic law, above is my perspective of academic law.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    Slightly off topic - but the institution can be as important as the degree. Where are you thinking of applying?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,632 ✭✭✭NoQuarter


    Massive +1 to Avartagh. Couldnt agree more, procedural law is much more enjoyable as it equips you with the tools to make things happen.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 131 ✭✭SlyBacon93


    Slightly off topic - but the institution can be as important as the degree. Where are you thinking of applying?
    Trinity and ucd


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Strawberry Fields


    Who knows what they want to do at 18? I was 27 before I started doing law and really never would of dreamt of it 10 years earlier. One thing is for sure a Law degree won't do you any harm in terms of securing a job, as someone who worked in banks and fininacial services a law degree will get you into the good areas of a banking or finance probably over a business degree.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 716 ✭✭✭fufureida


    Honestly, if you're not actually that interested in law, which by the sounds of it, you're not, I wouldn't recommend studying it. You stand a high chance of hating it and dropping out.

    I don't think law is something you can properly do well in without having a genuine interest in the subject

    I agree, although when I did law I basically forced to do it because of my parents. I never had the slightest interest. Now, I feel I couldn't have made a better decision. I really have a crazy passion for law.

    I would say give it shot, see how you find it for the first 2 months or something. If its not your thing, then drop out. You won't know until you try it, you have very little to lose (some money perhaps - which tbh you can always make some money!) and alot to gain!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 240 ✭✭slum dog


    consider studying public admin at UL. this course covers Law, Economics, Politics and Sociology. if you don't like law you can drop it. its only 330 points aswel!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 285 ✭✭Ashashi


    I only decided to do law about 6 months before my leaving and probably best decision of my life. I had no interest what so ever, but now I thoroughly enjoy it. I go home and the thought of having to do research doesn't bother me. The thing is as well with a law degree, it has many advantages. Throughout your law degree you will be tested quite vigorously, be it group work, independent work or competing in moot courts, it is a degree that you gain so many invaluable skills that will benefit you in nearly any aspect of the corporate world.

    Best of luck with your future endeavours and trust me, you don't need an interest before yo enjoy it. :)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    If you're interested in a general degree then some good options are
    Public and Social Policy (Economics, law, politics and sociology) at NUIG,
    Law and an Arts subject (History, English etc) at NUIG or NUIM,
    Economics, Politics and Law (EPL) at DCU or Politics, Philosophy and Economics (PPE) at Queens.
    All of these give you a grounding in various related areas and would be more varied than an LLB or BCL degree, studying law on its own is rotten if you're not interested.

    You can then go onto do a postgrad law qualification if you really get into law.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 124 ✭✭GeorgeOrwell


    I'm doing the King's Inns diploma at the age of 35 and have never studied law before, so even if you do a different subject at undergrad level, you can still go on to study law.

    I echo what people have said about Lord Denning. His judgements are always worth reading.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭secretambition


    Law might well be the best degree to do if you want to be a lawyer, but personally I think the "law is a great general degree to have" thing is a bit oversold. For people who don't know what they want to do when they finish and therefore may well end up in other areas, I would recommend having a degree that provides evidence of some farily specific skill e.g. numerical skills, language skills, IT and so on.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24 tiktock7aclock


    Read the Constitution of Ireland for a start. From start to finish.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭evercloserunion


    Law might well be the best degree to do if you want to be a lawyer, but personally I think the "law is a great general degree to have" thing is a bit oversold. For people who don't know what they want to do when they finish and therefore may well end up in other areas, I would recommend having a degree that provides evidence of some farily specific skill e.g. numerical skills, language skills, IT and so on.
    I think there are two extremes to this that are both overstated. On the one hand as you say, law as a general degree isn't as helpful as people often make it out to be.

    On the other hand, people also argue that law isn't that much of a help even if you want to be a lawyer, as non-law students can also go for FE1s etc. But having gone through one half of my FE1s I have to say that it's evident that non-law students struggle a *lot* more with them than law students. And of course the Kings Inns requires you to either have a law degree or do some conversion course.

    I think the reality is somewhere between the two extremes. Law is an okay general degree, but it's not a panacea. On the other hand, law isn't absolutely essential for practising as a solicitor or barrister, but it helps a lot.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭mitzicat


    I think that there is no requirement for a solicitor (as barristers have to have a legal education) in Ireland to have a law degree is absolutely ridiculous. There are so many aspects to law that cannot be taught/examined by the Fe1s.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭johnfás


    mitzicat wrote: »
    I think that there is no requirement for a solicitor (as barristers have to have a legal education) in Ireland to have a law degree is absolutely ridiculous. There are so many aspects to law that cannot be taught/examined by the Fe1s.

    There's also the fact that most of what is covered in a law degree has little relevance to legal practice in Ireland. It should be noted that barristers, if they have a law degree, do one year training and are then qualified (albeit as devils). Contrast to the solicitors profession where you are a trainee for 2.5 years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭secretambition


    I think there are two extremes to this that are both overstated. On the one hand as you say, law as a general degree isn't as helpful as people often make it out to be.

    On the other hand, people also argue that law isn't that much of a help even if you want to be a lawyer, as non-law students can also go for FE1s etc. But having gone through one half of my FE1s I have to say that it's evident that non-law students struggle a *lot* more with them than law students. And of course the Kings Inns requires you to either have a law degree or do some conversion course.

    I think the reality is somewhere between the two extremes. Law is an okay general degree, but it's not a panacea. On the other hand, law isn't absolutely essential for practising as a solicitor or barrister, but it helps a lot.

    Yes, I would definitely agree that law is generally better for anyone with a serious intention of becoming a lawyer. It gives far more time to study principles and ideas than the postgrad courses. If nothing else, it makes it much easier to answer interview questions along the lines of "tell me about your commitment to law as a career".

    But I really think as a general degree for a person who is applying for general jobs/graduate schemes where any discipline is accepted, it is not much more than okay. I think in the current times employers want concrete, practical skills that are useful in the job - maths, languages and so on. In a law degree, the only real concrete (for want of a better word) skill you get is the ability to interpret law, so for non-legal roles people end up having to rely on softer skills and transferable skills such as critical analysis, communication skills and so on. It might get a certain amount of respect for being a "serious" subject, but all of these arguments when you are trying to promote yourself for a non-legal role are quite vague and fuzzy. It would be really nice to be able to set yourself apart and say to an employer "I can do X which is a very specific skill and that's why you should hire me".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    Read the Constitution of Ireland for a start. From start to finish.

    Why? Without an interprative context its fairly vague.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey



    But I really think as a general degree for a person who is applying for general jobs/graduate schemes where any discipline is accepted, it is not much more than okay. I think in the current times employers want concrete, practical skills that are useful in the job - maths, languages and so on. In a law degree, the only real concrete (for want of a better word) skill you get is the ability to interpret law, so for non-legal roles people end up having to rely on softer skills and transferable skills such as critical analysis, communication skills and so on. It might get a certain amount of respect for being a "serious" subject, but all of these arguments when you are trying to promote yourself for a non-legal role are quite vague and fuzzy. It would be really nice to be able to set yourself apart and say to an employer "I can do X which is a very specific skill and that's why you should hire me".

    Employers are generally more interested in the person than the qualification, unless the qualification is absolutely vital for the role., eg fluency in a particular language. Most employers have found that once the person has a reasonable standard in the hard skills, the soft skills are the area to focus on. The fact that someone got a higher qualification than another is less important than which of them will work better in a team, which of them can win business etc.
    The fact that someone went to college and got some kind of a reasonable degree of any kind shows certain qualities. They should be well capapble of learning on the job anything they need to learn.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭secretambition


    Employers are generally more interested in the person than the qualification, unless the qualification is absolutely vital for the role., eg fluency in a particular language.

    I disagree. I think that employers are more interested in the qualification if it is vaguely useful in the role or even just displays a particular aptitude on the part of the candidate. For example, for a lot of financial services roles, job descriptions will say that the person should have a degree in economics/finance/mathematics/physics. It's very unlikely that they want the person to do physics in a bank. They specify that one, rather than leaving it open to graduates of any discipline, because they want someone with a head for maths. A law graduate may well be good at maths, but they haven't proven it beyond school level usually. This is just one random example, but my point is that a person chosing a degree should consider what the degree will say about them at the end.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭johnfás


    I disagree. I think that employers are more interested in the qualification if it is vaguely useful in the role or even just displays a particular aptitude on the part of the candidate. For example, for a lot of financial services roles, job descriptions will say that the person should have a degree in economics/finance/mathematics/physics. It's very unlikely that they want the person to do physics in a bank. They specify that one, rather than leaving it open to graduates of any discipline, because they want someone with a head for maths. A law graduate may well be good at maths, but they haven't proven it beyond school level usually. This is just one random example, but my point is that a person chosing a degree should consider what the degree will say about them at the end.

    Do you work in the profession? The reality far better reflects what Milk & Honey is pointing out than what you are suggesting. The firms are full of non law graduates from various fields. Engineering is particularly sought after as a degree in large commercial firms because it gives the firms an understanding of what they are advising clients when it comes to major M&A work in the pharma and industrial sectors as well as advising on IP issues. If you haven't yet entered the profession I'd just be a little careful of being too overt with the above in any interview. You'll find it's quite likely that the partner opposite you didn't study law originally. That is not to say that there is any disadvantage to studying law but work hard and with a bit of luck and you are no worse off provided you are suited to the career.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭secretambition


    johnfás wrote: »
    Do you work in the profession? The reality far better reflects what Milk & Honey is pointing out than what you are suggesting. The firms are full of non law graduates from various fields. Engineering is particularly sought after as a degree in large commercial firms because it gives the firms an understanding of what they are advising clients when it comes to major M&A work in the pharma and industrial sectors as well as advising on IP issues. If you haven't yet entered the profession I'd just be a little careful of being too overt with the above in any interview. You'll find it's quite likely that the partner opposite you didn't study law originally. That is not to say that there is any disadvantage to studying law but work hard and with a bit of luck and you are no worse off provided you are suited to the career.

    The post you quoted from me was referring to the value of a law degree for non-legal roles. In my second post in this thread I said this and Milk & Honey quoted that post so I assumed we were still discussing that. I was excluding anything that goes on in law firms.

    I never said that non-law graduates can't be successful lawyers. As for law graduates being overt in interviews, I am not suggesting they should walk in and directly announce they are more committed to a career in law because they studied it. I'm saying that they are likely to have more examples to draw on if they've been at it for years. They are more likely to have met firms if they studied a law course. I find the insistance by some people (not saying you, I don't know what your view is) that there is not even a slight advantage to having studied law if you want to be a lawyer quite bizarre.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭johnfás


    The truth lies between the two. However, it is very easy to overstate the importance of a law degree. With regard to having been at it for years. Many students doing their interviews are at the end of their second or third year studying law. In UCD you have 24 weeks of lectures per academic year. A large firm is considering investing in you for 30-40 years so put the 48-72 weeks of study into a little bit of perspective. Particularly when a considerable part of that time is set aside for the study of subjects of little relevance to most people in practice. Again, that isn't to belittle a law degree. Clearly a law graduate has studied company law for a number of weeks, a philosophy graduate won't have. But at the same time an accountancy graduate may have significant technical expertise on accountancy regulation - which is what solicitors have to advise firms of accountants on frequently.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭secretambition


    It depends on the candidate. You could be interviewed when you are finished second year law with no relevant experience. You could be interviewed after a four year law degree and a masters where you have diligently gotten work experience every summer. You could be a non-law graduate with some work experience and a specialist degree in another area that is prized for some other reason. You could be a non-law graduate with no relevant work experience with a CV that looks like you just thought of applying to law firms yesterday because you couldn't think of anything else.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    I disagree. I think that employers are more interested in the qualification if it is vaguely useful in the role or even just displays a particular aptitude on the part of the candidate. For example, for a lot of financial services roles, job descriptions will say that the person should have a degree in economics/finance/mathematics/physics. It's very unlikely that they want the person to do physics in a bank. They specify that one, rather than leaving it open to graduates of any discipline, because they want someone with a head for maths. A law graduate may well be good at maths, but they haven't proven it beyond school level usually. This is just one random example, but my point is that a person chosing a degree should consider what the degree will say about them at the end.


    In that case maths is one of the hard qualifications. The employers don't particularly care what the degree is, as long as it is in a numerate discipline and will not care how good a physicist or economist a candidate is. The soft skills come into play immediately. The employers are not interested in the qualification per se. Every candidate for any job has to get over the hard skills test. Law graduates will get over some but not all, as will any graduate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1 Dirty 30


    I'm a 44 year old male working in engineering. A trade qualification and studied later on to fetac level 6. I'm interested in studying law (family law) . What steps would I have to take to get a course in the Munster area and can lay people do these courses with success.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,549 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Dirty 30 wrote: »
    I'm a 44 year old male working in engineering. A trade qualification and studied later on to fetac level 6. I'm interested in studying law (family law) . What steps would I have to take to get a course in the Munster area and can lay people do these courses with success.

    Apply to UCC / UL and if accepted you could do their law degrees. I don't know what you mean about "lay people".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    Dirty 30 wrote: »
    I'm a 44 year old male working in engineering. A trade qualification and studied later on to fetac level 6. I'm interested in studying law (family law) . What steps would I have to take to get a course in the Munster area and can lay people do these courses with success.

    Well all layers started as lay people. But you have a number of options. I will set out the ones I can remember.

    1 Study for a law degree, options in a Cork (has most options in Munster.) Do full time 3 year degree in UCC, or 4 year evening degree (next intake 2015 for evening) or do Griffith College degree course. Once you have the Degree then you can decide solicitors route or barrister.

    The second option is to enter blackhall place as mature student do the following http://www.lawsociety.ie/Pages/Public-Becoming-a-Solicitor-CMS/Irish-Applicants-Solicitor/Preliminary-Examination/

    The above if passed puts you in same position as a law graduate but you will not have any real law study experience. The next stage after either graduate route or non graduate route is http://www.lawsociety.ie/Pages/Public-Becoming-a-Solicitor-CMS/Irish-Applicants-Solicitor/FE-1-Exam/

    Once those exams are passed you will need a training contract with a Solicitor, http://www.lawsociety.ie/Pages/Public-Becoming-a-Solicitor-CMS/Irish-Applicants-Solicitor/Training-Programme/

    Then the professional course, http://www.lawsociety.ie/Pages/Public-Becoming-a-Solicitor-CMS/Irish-Applicants-Solicitor/PPC-Courses/

    The other option is the Barrister route. If you have a law degree then you sit the entrance exams held once a year http://www.kingsinns.ie/website/prospective_students/degree/degree.htm

    Non law degree holders or mature applicants can apply for the 2 year diploma in law, http://www.kingsinns.ie/website/prospective_students/diploma/diploma.htm

    The following sets out the ways to qualify http://www.kingsinns.ie/website/prospective_students/prospective.htm

    Info http://www.kingsinns.ie/website/current_students/diploma/pdfs/KING'S%20INNS_Education%202013.pdf

    Once a person has completed the 1 year degree of barrister of law or the two year part time degree, then a person must complete a year of practice in Dublin this is called Devilling, its unpaid work (usually).

    Only after qualifying, can a person in reality specialise in say family, of course if that's the area a person wants to practice, as a solicitor one would pick a firm that does a lot of family work to train in same for Devilling year to pick a master doing family law work.

    Be aware of the low salary as a starting solicitor currently, and expect as a barrister not to make a living for between 5 to 10 years if at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    You can always pick up a family law module somewhere if it's just an interest thing. I'd imagine a fully qualified engineer with years of experiance would be snapped up by the right solicitors firm, but that's not going to get you into family law, perhaps as a side line with the right firm.

    If you're mobile there are many more options in E&W IMHO, perhaps do an English Law degree through the Open University. NOTE THE QUALIFICATION CRITERIA for the time scales in E&W.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 55 ✭✭Muilleann


    What's the Law degree in Waterford IT like?


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