HID headlamps - is your car compliant?

stoneill

"Vehicles equipped with HID headlamps (except motorcycles) are required by ECE regulation 48 also to be equipped with headlamp lens cleaning systems and automatic beam levelling control"

This is news to me, anyone have any probs with cars passing NCT or even stopped by Gardai for having HID's without the above?

listermint

stoneill wrote: »

"Vehicles equipped with HID headlamps (except motorcycles) are required by ECE regulation 48 also to be equipped with headlamp lens cleaning systems and automatic beam levelling control"

This is news to me, anyone have any probs with cars passing NCT or even stopped by Gardai for having HID's without the above?

Before this thread goes into full swing, There doesnt seem to be a requirement within the NCT for cleaning or self leveling systems as stated above.

So in that fashion as long as they are alligned to a certain level they will pass the NCT.

I personally despise poorly fitted HIDs and the NCT should by all means address this but they dont and do not appear to have the necessary powers to make such things as non projector lenses with HID's fitted a failure.

Tropheus

AFAIK, that's only for factory fitted HIDs. At present, I'm not aware of any regulations governing aftermarket kits.

My father in law has an aftermarket kit on his B5.5 Passat and has never had a problem with the NCT.

However, there's no way of telling if new regulations will be introduced in the future which will mean that any car with an aftermarket kit will fail the NCT.

Voodoomelon

Something I'm not fully read up on, but the whole "don't use HIDs in non-projector housings" still confuses me.

If the current factory halogen bulb in a non projector lamp can light up the road safely without scattering light all over the place, how does installing a much brighter bulb from a HID system suddenly cause the light to go outside of these parameters? IE, the reflectors inside the lamp do not change? My HID install in reflector headlamps are exactly the same as they were before, just brighter.

I'm not disagreeing with the idea, I just don't understand it.

thats not gone well

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Something I'm not fully read up on, but the whole "don't use HIDs in non-projector housings" still confuses me.

If the current factory halogen bulb in a non projector lamp can light up the road safely without scattering light all over the place, how does installing a much brighter bulb from a HID system suddenly cause the light to go outside of these parameters? IE, the reflectors inside the lamp do not change? My HID install in reflector headlamps are exactly the same as they were before, just brighter.

I'm not disagreeing with the idea, I just don't understand it.

true the reflectors don't change but the hid bulb is bigger than the H7/4 it replaces.
thereby changing the beam pattern,
hence causing dazzling/glare/ NCT non compliance

listermint

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Something I'm not fully read up on, but the whole "don't use HIDs in non-projector housings" still confuses me.

If the current factory halogen bulb in a non projector lamp can light up the road safely without scattering light all over the place, how does installing a much brighter bulb from a HID system suddenly cause the light to go outside of these parameters? IE, the reflectors inside the lamp do not change? My HID install in reflector headlamps are exactly the same as they were before, just brighter.

I'm not disagreeing with the idea, I just don't understand it.

HID have a stronger light (more candles) hence their range far exceeds that of a standard bulb, probably up around 100 times more powerful.

The housings arent designed to reflect and aim that sort of power correctly. Hence the strong light becomes scattered and dispersed including increased range out of the lens.

To put it plainly the stronger light needs to be directed more efficiently to control it. Otherwise you end up having a really bright uncontrolled source that just blinds other drivers.

Voodoomelon

Cheers for the info.
Never thought about the tips of the bulb, or the length, makes perfect sense.

Mine genuinely seem to be perfectly acceptable to both me an other drivers, I can see same old beam pattern as before, with the highest point of the beam exactly where it should be. Haven't experienced a single flash from anyone in the 5 odd months ive had them installed. The only difference that I see between my HIDs and say my mates Focus ST factory HIDs is that his beam pattern is much more defined around the edges, no doubt due to the projectors.

listermint

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Cheers for the info.
Never thought about the tips of the bulb, or the length, makes perfect sense.

Mine genuinely seem to be perfectly acceptable to both me an other drivers, I can see same old beam pattern as before, with the highest point of the beam exactly where it should be. Haven't experienced a single flash from anyone in the 5 odd months ive had them installed. The only difference that I see between my HIDs and say my mates Focus ST factory HIDs is that his beam pattern is much more defined around the edges, no doubt due to the projectors.

Without going down the HID road, irregardless of personal feelings on your after market HIDs they do scatter the light. There is a reason they have self leveling systems and its not for laughs.

Depends on the design of the lens how well it handles it, but the majority just werent built for it. Again im not making determination on your own ones.

thats not gone well

yeah its the crispness and definition of the projectors that makes the difference,
on some cars the beam edge scatter is appalling.

if i thought for a second they would not blind people from my car, id have fitted them ages ago

listermint

thats not gone well wrote: »

yeah its the crispness and definition of the projectors that makes the difference,
on some cars the beam edge scatter is appalling.

if i thought for a second they would not blind people from my car, id have fitted them ages ago

Mc Cain Oven crispness ?

Voodoomelon

listermint wrote: »

Without going down the HID road, irregardless of personal feelings on your after market HIDs they do scatter the light. There is a reason they have self leveling systems and its not for laughs.

Depends on the design of the lens how well it handles it, but the majority just werent built for it. Again im not making determination on your own ones.

Absolutely, there is no doubt they scatter light to an extent. But not all cars with factory xenon systems have self-levelling? I see it several times a week, cars/jeeps with xenons going over ramps, bumps, potholes etc. They don't self level at all.

thats not gone well

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Absolutely, there is no doubt they scatter light to an extent. But not all cars with factory xenon systems have self-levelling? I see it several times a week, cars/jeeps with xenons going over ramps, bumps, potholes etc. They don't self level at all.

would a factory levelling system be even able to react that quickly?

Voodoomelon

So they only adapt to inclines/declines?

thats not gone well

Voodoomelon wrote: »

So they only adapt to inclines/declines?

i was always under the impression they react to the load in the car ie passengers/full boot instead of the wheel on the dash

Voodoomelon

I thought the same myself, but sure I can adjust that myself with the halogens. If its just me in the car most of the time, what does self-levelling with xenons offer over my halogens?

thats not gone well

i think its here where the power (lumens) of the HID compared to halogens makes the difference,
a poorly aligned halogen glares at you for a few seconds, then blink a few times and its gone,
a HID will have you seeing spots for ages

alexmcred

Voodoomelon wrote: »

So they only adapt to inclines/declines?

In mine that's what they do and again they react to the position of the car if going over a speed bump they do start to level down but as soon as the car is flat they level again.

The whole idea is that the car keeps the lights at the correct level at all times so much so there is no way for the user to raise or lower them

Fiona

My angel eyes have passed the nct twice no problems.

alexmcred

mrs crilly wrote: »

My angel eyes have passed the nct twice no problems.

In the car or the way you look at the tester

Fiona

alexmcred wrote: »

In the car or the way you look at the tester

A little bit of both. No point in letting your best feature go to waste

listermint

Voodoomelon wrote: »

But not all cars with factory xenon systems have self-levelling? .

Its an EU directive.

mickdw

It has been law for years that you must have washers and self levelling if you have xenons. Its one law which is absolutely bang on as xenons really are blinding when they dazzle you. The sooner the nct looks for this the better.

-Corkie-

mickdw wrote: »

It has been law for years that you must have washers and self levelling if you have xenons. Its one law which is absolutely bang on as xenons really are blinding when they dazzle you. The sooner the nct looks for this the better.

I can understand the self levelling but why washers??

listermint

-Corkie- wrote: »

I can understand the self levelling but why washers??

i presume dirt has some bearing on direction.

thats not gone well

generally any bit of dirt/dust on the lenses causes them to glare even just shining through the plastic.

i think its caused by some light being reflected back into the headlight and then bouncing between the projector and the housing

Chuck_Norris

listermint wrote: »

-Corkie- wrote: »

I can understand the self levelling but why washers??

i presume dirt has some bearing on direction.

Someone told me before that the washers are there for removal of snow/ ice in winter conditions.

It makes sense, as I'm sure the snow/ice would act like a prism, causing the light scatter I be much worse than a wee bit of dirt.

ondafly

if this is now an NCT requirement ? what am I supposed to do ? I have factory fitted Xenons, with manual levelers (settings 1 through to 4, depending on carried load) and no headlight washers. I know of another UK imported car, that also has factory fit Xenons and no headlight washers. Are we expected to fabricate headlight washers for cars that never had them ?

MarkR

Mine passed just a few weeks ago with HID's. They don't check for levelling systems or cleaning systems. Check the nct website for what they check.

Anan1

ondafly wrote: »

if this is now an NCT requirement ? what am I supposed to do ? I have factory fitted Xenons, with manual levelers (settings 1 through to 4, depending on carried load) and no headlight washers. I know of another UK imported car, that also has factory fit Xenons and no headlight washers. Are we expected to fabricate headlight washers for cars that never had them ?

Are you sure they're factory fitted to EU regs? Some Subaru Forester STi's, for example, were imported to the UK with non-compliant HIDs. The importers replaced them with halogen units for the tests and then replaced the HIDs afterwards. The headlights in these cars are are factory fit, but they were never approved for UK use.

TestTransmission

I've factory fitted Xenons with no headlight washers, (they were removed by the previous owner) and I had no issue passing the NCT last year without them.

subway

what the NCT checks vs whats in the law are vastly different. you wont fail an NCT until its on the test,
However, you couldnt even be charged with an offence unless its introduced as a law over here (is it?) or the DPP want to make new case law with you!!

UNECE - (the UN) dont make irish law (do they?) they just tell car manufcaturers what to do, so potentially, they could fine BMW, not you?

ondafly

Anan1 wrote: »

Are you sure they're factory fitted to EU regs? Some Subaru Forester STi's, for example, were imported to the UK with non-compliant HIDs. The importers replaced them with halogen units for the tests and then replaced the HIDs afterwards. The headlights in these cars are are factory fit, but they were never approved for UK use.

I don't know of any Japanese imported car to this country that has gone through any sort of IE road compliance check. I do know in the UK they are alot more stringent, requiring speedos in MPH, rear foglights and I'm guessing washer jets ?

My own car is a WRX import from Japan and also doesn't have foglights either (front or rear) and as such would not be factory fitted to EU requirements, but then it was never a requirement in Ireland to convert imports to EU/IE standards ? I also noticed while driving in Japan that rarely did I see a car with xenons and headlight washers. I get what your saying about EU versions having them, but surely I don't have to go through the expense and hassle of either replacing perfectly good headlights, or adding in a complete headlight washer system ? it would end up costing more than the car is worth. It also appears that Subaru didn't make headlight washer systems until 2006, my car is 2002.

The other car I'm referring to is a EVO 8 UK car and has xenons but no washer jets, and in fact the owner was told by his mechanic that he might get some hassle with them during the NCT, but in fact didn't.

I guess my point is, if a car doesn't come fitted with something as standard, i.e. foglights, washer jets etc it should not be included on the NCT and we shouldn't be expected to retrospectively add safety equipment to them after they have been imported into the Irish market (my WRX has passed 3 NCTs while being here). I also own an 1981 E21, and it doesn't have ABS/airbags/power steering; perhaps they will become a requirement in time

Anan1

ondafly wrote: »

I guess my point is, if a car doesn't come fitted with something as standard, i.e. foglights, washer jets etc it should not be included on the NCT and we shouldn't be expected to retrospectively add safety equipment to them after they have been imported into the Irish market (my WRX has passed 3 NCTs while being here). I also own an 1981 E21, and it doesn't have ABS/airbags/power steering; perhaps they will become a requirement in time

In a sense you're right - the time for them to object is when they're registering the car here. Take your E21 for example, though - doesn't it still hasve to conform to the regs in force at the time of its manufacture (or first registration, I don't know which?) Even if you'd somehow managed to bring it in from a country that didn't require front seatbelts, would it not need to have them fitted now? I don't know the answer myself, but I suspect that it might.

JoeA3

My car has factory fitted xenons and while the benefits of the auto-leveling are obvious (I can actually see them self-adjusting when going up/down steep hills for example), the washers are just a pain in the arse! They just spray all over the front / bonnet of the car and if they come on at night, they momentarily make the lights dimmer! I don't see the point of them at all.

Anan1

JoeA3 wrote: »

My car has factory fitted xenons and while the benefits of the auto-leveling are obvious (I can actually see them self-adjusting when going up/down steep hills for example), the washers are just a pain in the arse! They just spray all over the front / bonnet of the car and if they come on at night, they momentarily make the lights dimmer! I don't see the point of them at all.

I had two older cars with washers that were controlled by a separate button - made much more sense, IMO.

listermint

ondafly wrote: »

if this is now an NCT requirement ? what am I supposed to do ? I have factory fitted Xenons, with manual levelers (settings 1 through to 4, depending on carried load) and no headlight washers. I know of another UK imported car, that also has factory fit Xenons and no headlight washers. Are we expected to fabricate headlight washers for cars that never had them ?

have you read the first few posts ???

dgt

Is my car compliant? No
Does it stop me using HID's? No
Are they reflectors? No
Do I blind people? No
Would they pass an NCT? They did on my old car
Will they pass again? We shall find out in due time...

I have yet to find a set of affordable bulbs that will outperform my 6000K HID dipped beams. So untill then, I'll keep using them

ondafly

Anan1 wrote: »

In a sense you're right - the time for them to object is when they're registering the car here. Take your E21 for example, though - doesn't it still hasve to conform to the regs in force at the time of its manufacture (or first registration, I don't know which?) Even if you'd somehow managed to bring it in from a country that didn't require front seatbelts, would it not need to have them fitted now? I don't know the answer myself, but I suspect that it might.

Perhaps if this does become a requirement of the NCT, it will go the same way as catalytic convertors for pre-91 cars. We can only hope !

listermint wrote: »

have you read the first few posts ???

Yes I did - did you miss the fact that I had "?" in my first post - I will give you the benefit of the doubt - but sadly its that sort of attitude which always seems to pop up in the motors section, which really puts me off posting here.

listermint wrote: »

Before this thread goes into full swing, There doesnt seem to be a requirement within the NCT for cleaning or self leveling systems as stated above.

and I'm sure like yourself, you don't believe everything you read on the internet, and as no one else in this thread agreed with you, or even posted a link to the actual NCT guide. I went and searched through the NCT testing requirements for myself, and can confirm there is no mention of headlight washers.

http://nct.ie/pdf/nctmanual.pdf

listermint

ondafly wrote: »

Perhaps if this does become a requirement of the NCT, it will go the same way as catalytic convertors for pre-91 cars. We can only hope !



Yes I did - did you miss the fact that I had "?" in my first post - I will give you the benefit of the doubt - but sadly its that sort of attitude which always seems to pop up in the motors section, which really puts me off posting here.



and I'm sure like yourself, you don't believe everything you read on the internet, and as no one else in this thread agreed with you, or even posted a link to the actual NCT guide. I went and searched through the NCT testing requirements for myself, and can confirm there is no mention of headlight washers.

http://nct.ie/pdf/nctmanual.pdf

I said there was no requirement (theres not)

You went off and did your own research, well done. I had answered the question and you went and followed up fair play. What was the point of the ? if you could find the answer?

This topic has been discussed before here and every other motor forum in the country.

Why wouldnt one post on the motors forum? Its just the internet. People need to relax a little more, you can take text up the wrong way so dont always read something nasty from it.

Thicker skin folks, christ if people went around whinging in their day to day conversations we'd all be in trouble. But alas in day to day you have the ability to also view facial expression in the communication which removes some of the unknown.

Either way, dont ever feel you cant post here. Its silly.

JoeA3

Anan1 wrote: »

I had two older cars with washers that were controlled by a separate button - made much more sense, IMO.

Yes, that sounds better. Mine come on every second time I use the windscreen washers (if the lights are on). Only way to disable them is plug the car into the VAG computer !

BigEejit

I do a lot of night time driving in the UK and very rarely do I get blinded by peoples dipped beams.

Driving in Ireland however can be a disaster. Last summer driving around Cork, Kerry, Limerick, Clare, Galway and over to Dublin I was getting blinded regularly.

<no foglights>

Friel

This law only came in at the start of the year in the North. I've had to take the HIDs out of my car. I'll put them back in after the test, I can't see the cops or gardai doing anything about it, just the MOT/NCT men.

mickdw

JoeA3 wrote: »

My car has factory fitted xenons and while the benefits of the auto-leveling are obvious (I can actually see them self-adjusting when going up/down steep hills for example), the washers are just a pain in the arse! They just spray all over the front / bonnet of the car and if they come on at night, they momentarily make the lights dimmer! I don't see the point of them at all.

You don't see the point of washers?
Do you see the point of windscreen washers?
Mine activate on first spray after start up if lights are on and every 5th spray after that. A long pull of the washer will also bring them on. Maybe they are pointless if just doing short runs and the car is always clean but for anyone doing reasonable mileage around rural Ireland, washers are a fantastic feature.

JoeA3

mickdw wrote: »

You don't see the point of washers?
Do you see the point of windscreen washers?
Mine activate on first spray after start up if lights are on and every 5th spray after that. A long pull of the washer will also bring them on. Maybe they are pointless if just doing short runs and the car is always clean but for anyone doing reasonable mileage around rural Ireland, washers are a fantastic feature.

No need to be a smart arse. Mine operate exactly the same way, or at least they are supposed to. However the every fifth wash seems to get forgotten if the lights go off and back on between those 5 washes... E.g. If car is switched off an restarted or if lights are in auto mode they often come on/off at dusk. So I find they come on much more often than every 5th go.

I stand by my comment that they are more effective at covering the front of the car with soap than actual cleaning. I would liken them to throwing a bucket of water at the car to "wash" it!

Anan1

JoeA3 wrote: »

Yes, that sounds better. Mine come on every second time I use the windscreen washers (if the lights are on). Only way to disable them is plug the car into the VAG computer !

On my current car they come on if I use the windscreen washers for more than about a second - you get used to spraying the 'screen in short bursts so as not to trigger them unnecessarily!

JoeA3 wrote: »

I stand by my comment that they are more effective at covering the front of the car with soap than actual cleaning. I would liken them to throwing a bucket of water at the car to "wash" it!

I agree, they're very heavy on fluid for the good that they do. Headlight wipers would be far more efficient.

JoeA3

Anan1 wrote: »

On my current car they come on if I use the windscreen washers for more than about a second - you get used to spraying the 'screen in short bursts so as not to trigger them unnecessarily!
I agree, they're very heavy on fluid for the good that they do. Headlight wipers would be far more efficient.

My old man had a Lada back in the late 1980's (the shame) and that had headlight wipers! Lada were always ahead of the game. Granted they stopped working after a few months!

OldGuysRule

Problem with wipers is that they start to scratch the poly screens on most headlights, hence the move to power washers.

tossy

I had factory xenons on my old Bora.The headlight washers were useless,if you activated them at anything over 40 mph then the only thing getting washed was your bonne(or at least 2 streaks up each side) if you activated them at night you temporarily lost most of your light output! The at least should activate in a staggered mode,i know some cars do this.If you activated them at motorway speeds then the spray completely cleared the car and travelled a good 20ft behind you :D

In winter the froze completely.The supercharger ended up melting one of the pipes so i stopped using them.

As for auto levelling i disconnected that altogether.

The car passed the NCT with neither in working order.

mickdw

JoeA3 wrote: »

No need to be a smart arse. Mine operate exactly the same way, or at least they are supposed to. However the every fifth wash seems to get forgotten if the lights go off and back on between those 5 washes... E.g. If car is switched off an restarted or if lights are in auto mode they often come on/off at dusk. So I find they come on much more often than every 5th go.

I stand by my comment that they are more effective at covering the front of the car with soap than actual cleaning. I would liken them to throwing a bucket of water at the car to "wash" it!

Not being a smart arse. I find them very effective. One of the long programed squired from the washers and the lights are perfect instantly. Better light and the beam pattern returned to how it should be instead of the fussy outlines created by dirty lights. Its hardly a big deal that the pressure spray blocks out the light alittle while cleaning.

LLU

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Something I'm not fully read up on, but the whole "don't use HIDs in non-projector housings" still confuses me.

If the current factory halogen bulb in a non projector lamp can light up the road safely without scattering light all over the place, how does installing a much brighter bulb from a HID system suddenly cause the light to go outside of these parameters? IE, the reflectors inside the lamp do not change? My HID install in reflector headlamps are exactly the same as they were before, just brighter.

I'm not disagreeing with the idea, I just don't understand it.

• they usually produce a shorter wavelength of light which is more susceptible to scatter
• the equivalent of the filament in a HID bulb (it doesn't have an actual filament but instead has an arc) is larger and less focused than a halogen filament. So unless you have a properly integrated HID system, your low beam will not be cleanly cut off below the eyeline of oncoming traffic, a sizeable proportion of light will leak into this area causing more dazzle for oncoming traffic.