Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Statute of Limitations - Census

  • 05-03-2012 6:34pm
    #1
    GombeanMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭


    Hi, hypothetically speaking, if a person makes an unintentional error on a census form, does that result in prosecution? Does this mean the Government can spot the error in say 20 years and prosecute somebody for 25,000 euro, or does the statute of limitations run from the date the form is recieved? Surely if the supplied information isn't even verified, how would the Government actually know? What do you think?


Comments

  • #2
    coylemj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,650 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    You can't be serious! How is the Govt. going to spot an error twenty years down the line - like they suddenly discover that you had three bathrooms in 1992 and only declared two? Off to the stocks with you!

    The forms are scanned and then filed away in the archives for 100 years. The only thing approaching verification is done by the local collator on the doorstep, after that it's just scanned by machines so nobody is going to come calling accusing you of providing false data.


  • #3
    Nolimits
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,673 ✭✭✭Nolimits


    GombeanMan wrote: »
    Hi, hypothetically speaking, if a person makes an unintentional error on a census form, does that result in prosecution? Does this mean the Government can spot the error in say 20 years and prosecute somebody for 25,000 euro, or does the statute of limitations run from the date the form is recieved? Surely if the supplied information isn't even verified, how would the Government actually know? What do you think?

    You're not really a Jedi are you?


  • #4
    Milk & Honey
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    GombeanMan wrote: »
    Hi, hypothetically speaking, if a person makes an unintentional error on a census form, does that result in prosecution? Does this mean the Government can spot the error in say 20 years and prosecute somebody for 25,000 euro, or does the statute of limitations run from the date the form is recieved? Surely if the supplied information isn't even verified, how would the Government actually know? What do you think?

    The Statute of Limitations only applies to civil actions, not criminal actions. It would be a matter for the defendant to show that any delay in bringing the prosecution was leading to a real risk of an unfair trial.


  • #5
    GombeanMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭GombeanMan


    Milk & Honey wrote: »
    The Statute of Limitations only applies to civil actions, not criminal actions. It would be a matter for the defendant to show that any delay in bringing the prosecution was leading to a real risk of an unfair trial.

    Does it not apply to summary criminal offences too? What annoys me about this, is that there is no information given to clarify if the "fine" is an administrative civil offence, or an actual criminal offence. Poor effort on their behalf.


  • #6
    Milk & Honey
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    GombeanMan wrote: »
    Does it not apply to summary criminal offences too? What annoys me about this, is that there is no information given to clarify if the "fine" is an administrative civil offence, or an actual criminal offence. Poor effort on their behalf.

    The summons in respect of summary only criminal offences must be applied for within 6 months of the offence. Nothing to do with the Statute of Limitations and everything to do with the Petty Sessions ireland Act.

    What is an " administrative civil offence"?


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    GombeanMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭GombeanMan


    Milk & Honey wrote: »
    The summons in respect of summary only criminal offences must be applied for within 6 months of the offence. Nothing to do with the Statute of Limitations and everything to do with the Petty Sessions ireland Act.

    What is an " administrative civil offence"?

    Ah, I messed up with the terms. Thanks for correcting me on the terminology. From what I now understand, if this is infact a criminal offence, proceedings for this offence cannot be brought against an individual after 6 months from the date of the offence, or does this only apply once the alleged offence is discovered?

    If the Discovery rule applies in this case, I would imagine the Government could comb through all these records, find miniscule errors, then prosecute thousands of people? We are in a recession. I could imagine them doing something like this for the money.

    Not that it's very likely, but what is to stop the Government prosecuting everybody who said "Jedi", seeing as it's not an official Religion? Would be interesting for the Courts I think.


  • #8
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,473 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    They would be out of time to prosecute at this stage.


  • #9
    GombeanMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭GombeanMan


    Our man in Havana wrote: »
    They would be out of time to prosecute at this stage.

    Forgive me for being somewhat ignorant, but would the time limit not start from discovery of the mistake? Is this "offence" a criminal offence? Because if it isn't, that would imply discovery, which would introduce tolling, nullifying any potential time limits until discovery. Not that it's very likely. This stuff should really be clarified further in the future. Anyway, thanks to the posters who contributed to this discussion.


  • #10
    Milk & Honey
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    If the penalty is €25,000 it is not a summary only offence so there is no time limit. The offence is in fact either way.
    There is no discovery issue and nothing needs to be clarified.


  • #11
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,473 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    They would run into abuse of process and undue delay issues. I can't imagine a circuit judge giving such a case the time of day.


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    Milk & Honey
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    Our man in Havana wrote: »
    They would run into abuse of process and undue delay issues. I can't imagine a circuit judge giving such a case the time of day.

    It would be a matter for the defendant to raise. It is unlikely that a prosecution would be brought years after the event but the possibility is there. The CSO cannot be expected to validate every return as it is received so there is likely to be a margin of appreciation allowed in that regard.


  • #13
    GombeanMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭GombeanMan


    Milk & Honey wrote: »
    If the penalty is €25,000 it is not a summary only offence so there is no time limit. The offence is in fact either way.
    There is no discovery issue and nothing needs to be clarified.

    But these "crimes" aren't tried on indictment before a judge and jury, no? Therefore, how can they be considered to have no time limit? I thought only very serious crimes like fraud, murder, rape carries no limitations? Money isn't the first metric that comes to mind for determining if a potential case is criminal or civil. Large companies get sued for Billions at times, yet these are rarely tried on summary charges, let alone indictment. Stuff of this nature should simply involve big fines under the civil system.


  • #14
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,473 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    But these "crimes" aren't tried on indictment before a judge and jury, no?
    They would have to try you before a judge and jury in the circuit court at this stage, but they would have to go thru the district court first and serve a book of evidence.

    I could never see that happening.


  • #15
    GombeanMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭GombeanMan


    Our man in Havana wrote: »
    They would have to try you before a judge and jury in the circuit court at this stage, but they would have to go thru the district court first and serve a book of evidence.

    I could never see that happening.

    Appreciate all the input so far people. I am still not certain if the discovery rule applies here to criminal/cvil law of this nature, but I will do more research to keep myself aware. FWIW - Law is confusing and a minefield at the best of times:D


  • #16
    Milk & Honey
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    Our man in Havana wrote: »
    They would have to try you before a judge and jury in the circuit court at this stage, but they would have to go thru the district court first and serve a book of evidence.

    I could never see that happening.

    They could be brought as summary prosecutions at any time, in theory. In any situation where it is discovered a crime has been committed the DPP has to take a view on whether or not to prosecute. Lapse of time is one factor.


  • #17
    Milk & Honey
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    GombeanMan wrote: »
    But these "crimes" aren't tried on indictment before a judge and jury, no? Therefore, how can they be considered to have no time limit? I thought only very serious crimes like fraud, murder, rape carries no limitations? Money isn't the first metric that comes to mind for determining if a potential case is criminal or civil. Large companies get sued for Billions at times, yet these are rarely tried on summary charges, let alone indictment. Stuff of this nature should simply involve big fines under the civil system.

    The crime can be charged either way. Under the 2006 Criminal Justice Act there is no time limit. There is case law to the effect that lengthy delay prejudices the possibility of a fair trial, in which case the prosecution will be prohibited.

    Money has nothing to do with whether a case is criminal or civil. If something is defined as an offence it is criminal. If there is a recognised cause of action it is civil. (can be both). e.g. assault.

    Money has a lot to do with whether a crime is minor or non minor. The District Court cannot impose a fine of €25k for any offence.


  • #18
    cobhguy28
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 301 ✭✭cobhguy28


    When the person came to collect my census i did not put my name or dob on it and never heard anything back from them.


  • #19
    Kosseegan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 987 ✭✭✭Kosseegan


    How do they know who to go back to?


  • #20
    cobhguy28
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 301 ✭✭cobhguy28


    Good point but they have my address.


  • #21
    Kosseegan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 987 ✭✭✭Kosseegan


    cobhguy28 wrote: »
    Good point but they have my address.

    So what?


  • Advertisement
  • #22
    GombeanMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭GombeanMan


    Statistics Act, 1993

    Penalties.
    44.—(1) A person guilty of an offence under any provision of this Act shall be liable—

    (a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,000, or

    (b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding £20,000.

    (2) Where a person is convicted of an offence under section 36 of this Act he shall, if the contravention continues after conviction, be guilty of an offence on every day on which it continues and for each such offence he shall be liable—

    (a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £50, or

    (b) on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding £1,000.

    (3) Summary proceedings in relation to an offence under this Act may be brought and prosecuted by the Director General or an officer of statistics.

    (4) Notwithstanding section 10 (4) of the Petty Sessions (Ireland) Act, 1851, summary proceedings for an offence under this Act may be instituted within two years from the date of the offence.


Advertisement