Golf Membership Prices Dublin V Belfast

golfwallah

Golf Club Membership prices around Dublin have been falling in the last 2 / 3 years but still have some way to go, if published prices in clubs (other than the “Royals”) within 30 of Belfast are anything to go on.

Even “hello money” (in clubs still looking for it) is cheaper and there is no mention of Bar, Restaurant or Social Charges.

See attached pdf file for Membership Rates within 30 miles of Belfast.

A survey conducted by KPMG about 5 years ago showed that Spain had the worst managed golf clubs in Europe – followed closely by Ireland – but that was in the Celtic Tiger days.

Here’s hoping that the recession brings better management (ways can be found to lower costs without reducing quality), reflected in more competitive prices over the next 12 months!;)

Dtoffee

Thanks for that, it makes interesting reading and should be made common knowledge. It will be interesting to see what happens down here in the coming months as clubs are only now starting to see how many renewals they are getting.

I reckon there are quite a few out there saying nothing and massaging the figures for the year ahead in order to keep the banks at bay .... "oh yes Mr Banker, we have 800 members" (of which probably less than 300 are paying full fees!).

My concern is that the market will change if a club or two go bust and suddenly you have between 300 and 600 golfers looking for a new home ....... we could be back to seeing the hello money because the demand could outstrip the supply.

thewobbler

This list is a bit misleading.

There is a substantial gap in quality between the 4-figure clubs on the list, and those under 4 figures. 4-5 of them are little better than municipal tracks. Belvoir is by some distance the best course on the list, and it shows.

The list also doesn't include many of the tracks in and around Belfast that you'd genuinely want to play: Malone, Royal Belfast, Lisburn, Clandeboye, Bangor, Dunmurry, Knock, Scrabo, Spa. While it also should be pointed out that RCD and Ardglass also fall into this radar.

If you moved the top 6-8 Dublin clubs out of your statistics, would they really be different in price to Belfast? Especially considering the substantially higher Dublin wages?

golfwallah

Dtoffee wrote: »

Thanks for that, it makes interesting reading and should be made common knowledge. It will be interesting to see what happens down here in the coming months as clubs are only now starting to see how many renewals they are getting.

I reckon there are quite a few out there saying nothing and massaging the figures for the year ahead in order to keep the banks at bay .... "oh yes Mr Banker, we have 800 members" (of which probably less than 300 are paying full fees!).

My concern is that the market will change if a club or two go bust and suddenly you have between 300 and 600 golfers looking for a new home ....... we could be back to seeing the hello money because the demand could outstrip the supply.

Fair comment, but with over 400 clubs in the Republic and declining numbers of registered golfers, I think it will take a long time for demand to match up with supply again.

The clubs that give members what they want in terms of value for money, location. service quality, etc. will survive and prosper if they continue to look after their customers.

As for the rest ....... well, do we really need them?

golfwallah

thewobbler wrote: »

This list is a bit misleading.

There is a substantial gap in quality between the 4-figure clubs on the list, and those under 4 figures. 4-5 of them are little better than municipal tracks. Belvoir is by some distance the best course on the list, and it shows.

The list also doesn't include many of the tracks in and around Belfast that you'd genuinely want to play: Malone, Royal Belfast, Lisburn, Clandeboye, Bangor, Dunmurry, Knock, Scrabo, Spa. While it also should be pointed out that RCD and Ardglass also fall into this radar.

If you moved the top 6-8 Dublin clubs out of your statistics, would they really be different in price to Belfast? Especially considering the substantially higher Dublin wages?

Don’t agree that the list is misleading – it is factual, based on published rates on GUI site or clubs’ own websites (now updated to include even more clubs within 30 miles of Belfast ... see attached).

The idea is to provide golfers with some price benchmarks as between Dublin & Belfast membership rates, in the hope that openness and hard data will help inform the debate on this issue in some small way - just compare with prices on http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056422136&page=11).

I’m confident that anyone using the list would have the intelligence to see these rates in perspective.

No, it doesn’t cover everything. Would love to include factors such as course quality but absence of this information shouldn’t be a show stopper in making comparatives (not even well resourced companies like KPMG include qualitative date in their golf benchmark reports).

Lots of commentators feel that, although some progress has been made, there is still a large element of over-pricing in the Republic resulting from failure to tackle difficult strategic management issues in lots of member owned golf clubs. The biggest single factor, IMO, is absence of a professional management approach by amateur committees (by dint of precedent or constraints placed on them by members). This leaves most committees resistant to change plus many haven’t the time, interest or skills to deal with the business side of their clubs.

The result is that scarce management time is eaten up working on the business “as is” (e.g. day to day stuff like competitions, handicaps, chasing unpaid subs, broken equipment, staff problems, member complaints, etc.), rather than on the business “as needs to be” to survive and beat the recession. Strategic issues are dealt with by reaction management (Oops, 100+ members didn’t renew, we’re running out of cash, what’ll we do?), which severely restricts the time needed to do this stuff properly.

As for N.I clubs like Malone, Ardglass, Royal Co. Down, Royal Belfast, Scrabo, Spa, Dunmurry, etc. – rates are not on GUI site. Moreover, these are up-market clubs and, from what I can see, are the kind of clubs that most boardsies would play occasionally but would not be queuing up to join (that’s why I don’t have the top 6 – 8 Dublin clubs in my Dublin list, either).

Can’t accept your point about wages being higher down here – that is just one of many issues clubs need to manage. We’re in a common market and all businesses (of which golf clubs are just a part) need to be competitive to stay in business as well as to ensure the future viability of Ireland Inc.

golfwallah

Oops .... updated list now attached.

moycullen14

golfwallah wrote: »

Lots of commentators feel that, although some progress has been made, there is still a large element of over-pricing in the Republic resulting from failure to tackle difficult strategic management issues in lots of member owned golf clubs. The biggest single factor, IMO, is absence of a professional management approach by amateur committees (by dint of precedent or constraints placed on them by members). This leaves most committees resistant to change plus many haven’t the time, interest or skills to deal with the business side of their clubs.

The result is that scarce management time is eaten up working on the business “as is” (e.g. day to day stuff like competitions, handicaps, chasing unpaid subs, broken equipment, staff problems, member complaints, etc.), rather than on the business “as needs to be” to survive and beat the recession. Strategic issues are dealt with by reaction management (Oops, 100+ members didn’t renew, we’re running out of cash, what’ll we do?), which severely restricts the time needed to do this stuff properly.

Absolutely 100% agree with this post. I think you've hit the nail on the head as far as resolving difficulties most clubs find themselves in.

Most clubs are finding themselves in very difficult positions with a lot of hard decisions needing to be made: redundancy, facilities closure, etc. and are relying on volunteers - who are often woefully inexperienced - to devise and implement strategies. On top of that, most clubs are hide-bound by constitutions and democracy requirements that severely limit their scope for innovative action.

At times like these I wonder if owner operated clubs are in better shape?

There is overcapacity of about 1/3 for the current demand of Golf in Ireland. Some clubs - even long-established ones - are going to have to close in order for the rest to survive.

If I was running a club - and thank God I'm not - I would be looking at the bare minimum needed to keep a course going and how to match that with revenue. What our club is finding is that members are leaking away, year on year until we get to the point where the club is unsustainable.

The point above about muddling through on a day to day basis whilst ignoring the longer-term strategic issues is the biggest risk clubs face. And is symptomatic of so much that's wrong with this country.

I'm just amazed that so few people involved in running clubs can see or accept that they are, or soon will be, fighting for their very existence.

golfwallah

moycullen14 wrote: »

At times like these I wonder if owner operated clubs are in better shape?

I think you could be right .... and "the powers that be" seem to agree by backing the shakier ones with NAMA.

moycullen14 wrote: »

There is overcapacity of about 1/3 for the current demand of Golf in Ireland. Some clubs - even long-established ones - are going to have to close in order for the rest to survive.

Agreed .... and those that want to be numbered among the survivors, need to change their ways .... fast!

moycullen14 wrote: »

I'm just amazed that so few people involved in running clubs can see or accept that they are, or soon will be, fighting for their very existence.

It seems, like the captain of the Costa Concordia, they can't believe what is happening, are hoping everything will turn out all right and haven't communicated effectively that they have a problem.

golfwallah

Golf membership rates around Dublin continue to be expensive, despite the recession – but for how long?

To get an indication of how much we are out of step, I’ve just done a comparison of average 7 Day prices near Dublin against those within reach of Belfast (using rates in this thread and http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056422136&page=11).

With so many clubs competing for declining numbers of golfers, seems that the golf membership market, like the housing market, hasn’t bottomed out quite yet:

Area / Average 7Day Sub / (clubs in sample)
Dublin / €1,187 / (24)
Kildare / €958 /(10)
Meath / €1,020 / (4)
Wicklow / €1,096 / (8)
Within 10 miles of Belfast / €814 / (12)
Within 20 miles of Belfast / €928 / (8)
Within 30 miles of Belfast / €757 / (8)