Broadband in rural Ireland

barcap

Question on behalf of my parents

My parents live a couple of miles outside Castlebar, but Eircom line is not upgraded in order to get broadband. The house is in between some hills, so therefore 3 or Vodafone dangles, (mobile internet), is not a viable solution. The other option of satelite internet connection is expensive option given the occasional use of the internet by my parents. Question is there an obligation on eircom to upgrade the line?

Thanks

lucernarian

Why isn't it upgraded? Are they connected to the castlebar exchange or a nearby village's exchange?

barcap

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Why isn't it upgraded? Are they connected to the castlebar exchange or a nearby village's exchange?

They are on an old fashioned shared line, am in England, so intend to call them tomorrow again, to get a proper explanation. They appear to have fobbed of my parents

bealtine

barcap wrote: »

They are on an old fashioned shared line, am in England, so intend to call them tomorrow again, to get a proper explanation. They appear to have fobbed of my parents

if it's a split line the only option is to order a new phone line for broadband. They will then have to come up with a copper pair for you/ Beware though that a long line will only give you 3Mbs or maybe even 1Mb service. In gemeral it's not too bad even at that speed.

Avns1s

You could try Westnet.

barcap

Avns1s wrote: »

You could try Westnet.

Westnet is expensive, for the limited use they will make of it.

Thanks for the responses, all

Avns1s

barcap wrote: »

Westnet is expensive, for the limited use they will make of it.

Thanks for the responses, all

Westnet is not that expensive and perhaps you could use a VOIP alternative to Eircom and be done with the line rental altogether.

barcap

Avns1s wrote: »

barcap wrote: »

Westnet is expensive, for the limited use they will make of it.

Thanks for the responses, all

Westnet is not that expensive and perhaps you could use a VOIP alternative to Eircom and be done with the line rental altogether.

Explain?

lucernarian

Go onto eircom forum and kick up a stink. People shouldn't be denied a clean phone line unless there is no alternative. Ask them to see if it's feasibly possible to provide a pairgain free line.

TheCelticWizard

barcap wrote: »

Question on behalf of my parents

My parents live a couple of miles outside Castlebar, but Eircom line is not upgraded in order to get broadband. The house is in between some hills, so therefore 3 or Vodafone dangles, (mobile internet), is not a viable solution. The other option of satelite internet connection is expensive option given the occasional use of the internet by my parents. Question is there an obligation on eircom to upgrade the line?

Thanks

Have you checked to see if their adress is covered by the national broadband scheme? Www.three.ie/nbs. If theit adress is in a green area on the map then 3 must provide service with minimum speed of 1.2mbps regardless of hills etc,even if it means installing satellite equipment at their own expense. Well worth a look, 20.22 per month, zero startup cost if you sign up for 18 months and a huge portion of Mayo is covered by it.

runawaybishop

Avns1s wrote: »

Westnet is not that expensive and perhaps you could use a VOIP alternative to Eircom and be done with the line rental altogether.

Westnet are 35 euro for a 1mb line whereas three are 20 euro under the national broadband scheme.

If the area is covered by Three under the NBS (and three claim the rollout is complete) then they are obligated to provide interwebs, hills be damned.

bealtine

TheCelticWizard wrote: »

Have you checked to see if their adress is covered by the national broadband scheme? Www.three.ie/nbs. If theit adress is in a green area on the map then 3 must provide service with minimum speed of 1.2mbps regardless of hills etc,even if it means installing satellite equipment at their own expense. Well worth a look, 20.22 per month, zero startup cost if you sign up for 18 months and a huge portion of Mayo is covered by it.

avoid 3g (NBS Scheme) like the plague it's just a sham

runawaybishop

bealtine wrote: »

avoid 3g (NBS Scheme) like the plague it's just a sham

Why do you say that?

bealtine

runawaybishop wrote: »

Why do you say that?

http://irelandoffline.org/2010/01/why-mobile-internet-access-is-not-broadband/

runawaybishop

bealtine wrote: »

http://irelandoffline.org/2010/01/why-mobile-internet-access-is-not-broadband/

Ok, read that - my experience with Three was different to what was outlined in that document. I attain a connection speed of 5 Mbps normally with a ping usually around 50, but always under 100 ms. My experience with Westnet was more expensive and my speed scaled back from 1 mbps to under .5 mbps after 30 seconds.

If the choice was Eircom, Westnet or Three then the latter is the clear winner.

bealtine

runawaybishop wrote: »

Ok, read that - my experience with Three was different to what was outlined in that document. I attain a connection speed of 5 Mbps normally with a ping usually around 50, but always under 100 ms. My experience with Westnet was more expensive and my speed scaled back from 1 mbps to under .5 mbps after 30 seconds.

Lucky you and it was pure luck that you got decent speeds with 3g. Whatever you do don't tell your neighbours that you get good speeds as when more of them sign up contention will kick in and that will be the end of your speeds.

You may have read the document but you certainly didn't understand it.

runawaybishop

bealtine wrote: »

Lucky you and it was pure luck that you got decent speeds with 3g. Whatever you do don't tell your neighbours that you get good speeds as when more of them sign up contention will kick in and that will be the end of your speeds.

You may have read the document but you certainly didn't understand it.

Who do you think recommended I get on to Three in the first place?


Despite the fact that speeds can suffer in relation to having more users on at the same time, you still have minimum standards.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Communications+Development/National+Broadband+Scheme/NBS+FAQs.htm#Product

If Three are not fulfilling their contractually obligated speeds then the issue is with Three, and not mobile broadband in general.

Would you like to say anything else in a condescending manner to me?

bealtine

runawaybishop wrote: »

Who do you think recommended I get on to Three in the first place?


Despite the fact that speeds can suffer in relation to having more users on at the same time, you still have minimum standards.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Communications+Development/National+Broadband+Scheme/NBS+FAQs.htm#Product

If Three are not fulfilling their contractually obligated speeds then the issue is with Three, and not mobile broadband in general.

I know about those "minimum specifications" but they are utterly ignored by 3 and the DECNR and that is the reality. No 3g system can control contention, the only way to control contention is by refusing connections.
How does that square with the "specifications"?
Here's a graphic of a typical cell:
http://www.radioway.info/comparewireless/img3.html

If you want to pimp mobile midband do it in the forum designed for that and while you are at it read the posts there.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1147

runawaybishop

bealtine wrote: »

I know about those "minimum specifications" but they are utterly ignored by 3 and the DECNR and that is the reality. No 3g system can control contention, the only way to control contention is by refusing connections.
How does that square with the "specifications"?
Here's a graphic of a typical cell:
http://www.radioway.info/comparewireless/img3.html

If you want to pimp mobile midband do it in the forum designed for that and while you are at it read the posts there.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1147

I was responding directly to the Op and relating my experiences, and then following up on your statment that "avoid 3g (NBS Scheme) like the plague it's just a sham". Thats not pimping mobile broadband, sunshine.

Please show me your specific data proving three fall down in their obligations. Clearly you don't like hspa, but calling it a sham is a bit much.

bealtine

runawaybishop wrote: »

I was responding directly to the Op and relating my experiences, and then following up on your statment that "avoid 3g (NBS Scheme) like the plague it's just a sham". Thats not pimping mobile broadband, sunshine.

Please show me your specific data proving three fall down in their obligations. Clearly you don't like hspa, but calling it a sham is a bit much.

I've shown you empirical evidence as to why the NBS is a sham and you are studiously ignoring it and recommending it to posters. Please stop it's simply not a solution for rural Ireland.

Here are the experiences of a typical user:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056546063

Anyway if you still want to insist of pimping something that patently barely works and then only by luck take it to the right forum. This is a forum for broadband only and midband has it's own forum for very good reason.

runawaybishop

bealtine wrote: »

I've shown you empirical evidence as to why the NBS is a sham and you are studiously ignoring it and recommending it to posters. Please stop it's simply not a solution for rural Ireland.

Here are the experiences of a typical user:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056546063

Anyway if you still want to insist of pimping something that patently barely works and then only by luck take it to the right forum. This is a forum for broadband only and midband has it's own forum for very good reason.

Since when is a blog a proper review? I was unaware boards posters allowed unsubstantiated claims to run amok. If you can show me concrete data i will be happy to stand aside.

I have just posted the experiences of a typical user as well, mine are positive. Neither my posts or that blog can be considered authoritative in any way. Furthermore, you haven't posted any solution for the OP, nor have you posted any info on the service in the Ops area.

FYI: i don;t need you to backseat moderate me. If you feel my post violates the rules then you can report it and let a mod take care of it.

Avns1s

barcap wrote: »

Explain?

Use a VOIP provider like Blueface

TheCelticWizard

bealtine wrote: »

avoid 3g (NBS Scheme) like the plague it's just a sham

I have to disagree. I was in that business and connected hundreds of customers under NBS. As long as you play the game and go through any troubleshooting they might ask you to perform over the phone, 3 will fulfill their obligation to provide service. Its only those customers who rant and refuse to problem solve that end up in trouble. Also NBS customers have a 14 day no quibble return policy to fall back on if its not working out.

bealtine

TheCelticWizard wrote: »

I have to disagree. I was in that business and connected hundreds of customers under NBS. As long as you play the game and go through any troubleshooting they might ask you to perform over the phone, 3 will fulfill their obligation to provide service. Its only those customers who rant and refuse to problem solve that end up in trouble. Also NBS customers have a 14 day no quibble return policy to fall back on if its not working out.

100s of people would disagree with you. There were at least 2 megathreads outlining poor speeds and various other problems like cdma CellBreathing on boards over the years all those 100s can't be wrong. I had 3 broadband when I was between proper broadband suppliers and the speeds were atrocious. My brother however has a reasonable speed on his dongle and he uses it everyday but as I tell him "don't tell your neighbours".

Do you disagree with any of the conclusions in these papers:
http://www.radioway.info/comparewireless/
http://irelandoffline.org/2010/01/wh...not-broadband/

TheCelticWizard

bealtine wrote: »

100s of people would disagree with you. There were at least 2 megathreads outlining poor speeds and various other problems like cdma CellBreathing on boards over the years all those 100s can't be wrong. I had 3 broadband when I was between proper broadband suppliers and the speeds were atrocious. My brother however has a reasonable speed on his dongle and he uses it everyday but as I tell him "don't tell your neighbours".

Do you disagree with any of the conclusions in these papers:
http://www.radioway.info/comparewireless/
http://irelandoffline.org/2010/01/wh...not-broadband/

I'm not saying that 3 mobile broadband is good everywhere,if you are in a location where the mast is overloaded of course it will be terrible. However the NBS is all about covering rural areas that have no other supply, and there are enough masts to cover all the houses in the area under the scheme. This is monitored closely and in my experience it works well. I remember those megathreads going on they were started before the NBS was rolled out. The fact is the OP may not even be in an NBS area, but its unfair to put him off even exploring that option when it may be his only chance of reasonably priced connection. Also he said that the usage would be light so I doubt he's looking to stream video or anything. I understand that you had a bad experience but you admit yourself it works fine for your brother, so it can be a good cheap option for the right person in the right location.

Sponge Bob

Best advice is get a prepaid 3 sim and try that for a few days ( say sat to tuesday) before you do something daft like sign a contract with 3.

TheCelticWizard wrote: »

NBS customers have a 14 day no quibble return policy to fall back on if its not working out.

It is not a 'no quibble' anything. The staff will pretend to investigate for ....14 days or so......and then you have no getout any more.

The best thing to do if stuck with unworkable 3g services is crack off a formal complaint on day one and insist the 14 days is extended immediately to allow 3 to work out gettinga booster over to you. 3g generally either works or it doesn't...no point hanging around.

TheCelticWizard wrote: »

I'm not saying that 3 mobile broadband is good everywhere,if you are in a location where the mast is overloaded of course it will be terrible. However the NBS is all about covering rural areas that have no other supply, and there are enough masts to cover all the houses in the area under the scheme.

There aren't in many areas and the coverage assumptions are risible. 3G only really works ( when it works) to 2km or so.

This is monitored closely and in my experience it works well. I remember those megathreads going on they were started before the NBS was rolled out. The fact is the OP may not even be in an NBS area, but its unfair to put him off even exploring that option when it may be his only chance of reasonably priced connection.

As long as he is prepared to crack off a formal email complaint an cc consumerline@comreg.ie he should be reasonably safe.

I understand that you had a bad experience but you admit yourself it works fine for your brother, so it can be a good cheap option for the right person in the right location.

It can, God help you elsewhere of course and there is the matter of a long contract to be dealt with.

bealtine

TheCelticWizard wrote: »

I'm not saying that 3 mobile broadband is good everywhere,if you are in a location where the mast is overloaded of course it will be terrible. However the NBS is all about covering rural areas that have no other supply, and there are enough masts to cover all the houses in the area under the scheme. This is monitored closely and in my experience it works well. I remember those megathreads going on they were started before the NBS was rolled out. The fact is the OP may not even be in an NBS area, but its unfair to put him off even exploring that option when it may be his only chance of reasonably priced connection. Also he said that the usage would be light so I doubt he's looking to stream video or anything. I understand that you had a bad experience but you admit yourself it works fine for your brother, so it can be a good cheap option for the right person in the right location.

The point I am making is a connection that depends on luck more than anything else is not suitable for rural Ireland or anywhere else as it does not deliver a guaranteed connection. Sure you can be lucky and get a connection but what happens when you don't get decent midband? Usually you get no coherent response from 3 as any sort of a connection is fine in their eyes.
The limits as laid out by the DECNR are simply ignored. 3G simply cannot deliver and is not broadband nor should it be sold as such.

The megathreads of old were broken up for reasons not related to the NBS.

TheCelticWizard

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Best advice is get a prepaid 3 sim and try that for a few days ( say sat to tuesday) before you do something daft like sign a contract with 3.



It is not a 'no quibble' anything. The staff will pretend to investigate for ....14 days or so......and then you have no getout any more.

The best thing to do if stuck with unworkable 3g services is crack off a formal complaint on day one and insist the 14 days is extended immediately to allow 3 to work out gettinga booster over to you. 3g generally either works or it doesn't...no point hanging around.


There aren't in many areas and the coverage assumptions are risible. 3G only really works ( when it works) to 2km or so.



As long as he is prepared to crack off a formal email complaint an cc consumerline@comreg.ie he should be reasonably safe.




It can, God help you elsewhere of course and there is the matter of a long contract to be dealt with.

NBS customers can return the device within the 14 days without any authorisation from 3, please get your facts straight. It was a part of the deal that NBS masts would not be overloaded and in my VAST experience 3 has stuck to this. Also the 14 days are a time to raise any issues within a standard 3 contract, not a timeframe where if their investigations are not completed you are locked in and that's the end of it. As I related in an earlier post the main cause of agro with 3 contracts is customers with a militant approach who refuse to engage in 3's admittedly frustrating and sometimes ridiculous procedures for troubleshooting the service. Lets be clear, I'm not a fan of 3. I do not agree with a lot of their policies and I know for sure that in certain areas their service is worse than dial-up. However the NBS scheme is for the most part a massive success, not as a means of bringing consistent fibre like speeds to everybody, but in its primary goal, to provide a reasonably priced, reasonably fast and reasonably consistent service to a huge number of people that otherwise would have no connection at all. And I am not one bit shaken in my beliefs by links to people moaning on forums, I have witnessed firsthand over a period of 3 years the difference the scheme has made to 100's of peoples lives.
Some people are so busy picking holes in everything that they fail to see the improvements that come along in this world.

Sponge Bob

TheCelticWizard wrote: »

NBS customers can return the device within the 14 days without any authorisation from 3, please get your facts straight. It was a part of the deal that NBS masts would not be overloaded and in my VAST experience 3 has stuck to this. Also the 14 days are a time to raise any issues within a standard 3 contract, not a timeframe where if their investigations are not completed you are locked in and that's the end of it.

Maybe you should read this thread below. There is no such thing as a No Quibble with 3. They will arsedrag everything to get them over the 14 day limit and will then tell the victim they are locked in. They have 20 page scripts prewritten and ready.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055971548

mshaw wrote:

basically i had every other option starting with the indoor repeater then an externall antenna but it made no differance. mine was a speed problem not a signal problem. i was receiving a full signal all the time . i think there was just to many subscribers in my area. it was fine during the day but as more people come on in the eve it got worse and worse untill it was unusable. you 1st have visit from a three engineer think he was from cork and its up to him if he approves it or not. he was with me for about 2 hrs doing various tests etc then my satellite was installed within 10 days

Thereafter they found themselves installing rather too many sat dishes and rowed back drastically. The modern iteration is simple. Get the mug over the 14 days and obstruct thereafter.

Back to that thread

ttm wrote:

Hadockman has it right keep phoning keep complaing. I know a 3 rep and he reckons that it takes about 4 weeks from your first complaint untill you get satellite installed but thats only if you are very very very very very persistant and keep at them.

Back to the last post thereafter.

As I related in an earlier post the main cause of agro with 3 contracts is customers with a militant approach who refuse to engage in 3's admittedly frustrating and sometimes ridiculous procedures for troubleshooting the service. Lets be clear, I'm not a fan of 3. I do not agree with a lot of their policies and I know for sure that in certain areas their service is worse than dial-up.

You mean the old take out the sim and clean it trick Three have the worst customer service I have EVER come across. Scripted nonsense.

However the NBS scheme is for the most part a massive success, not as a means of bringing consistent fibre like speeds to everybody, but in its primary goal, to provide a reasonably priced, reasonably fast and reasonably consistent service to a huge number of people that otherwise would have no connection at all. And I am not one bit shaken in my beliefs by links to people moaning on forums, I have witnessed firsthand over a period of 3 years the difference the scheme has made to 100's of peoples lives.

This is substantially true. But if it plain don't work you must be prepared to escalate ruthlessly in order not to be trapped in a long contract with an unusable service that you pay dearly for with no support...only babbling script readers.

Some people are so busy picking holes in everything that they fail to see the improvements that come along in this world.

Some people seen too much snakeoil dressed up as champagne over the years

The Golden rule of 3g is it will work or it won't..and if it does don't tell anyone about it.

TheCelticWizard

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Maybe you should read this thread below. There is no such thing as a No Quibble with 3. They will arsedrag everything to get them over the 14 day limit and will then tell the victim they are locked in. They have 20 page scripts prewritten and ready.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055971548




Thereafter they found themselves installing rather too many sat dishes and rowed back drastically. The modern iteration is simple. Get the mug over the 14 days and obstruct thereafter.

Back to that thread



Back to the last post thereafter.



You mean the old take out the sim and clean it trick Three have the worst customer service I have EVER come across. Scripted nonsense.



This is substantially true. But if it plain don't work you must be prepared to escalate ruthlessly in order not to be trapped in a long contract with an unusable service that you pay dearly for with no support...only babbling script readers.



Some people seen too much snakeoil dressed up as champagne over the years

The Golden rule of 3g is it will work or it won't..and if it does don't tell anyone about it.

Ok "No Quibble" is probably a strong phrase to use :-) Trust me though, if you get a modem on NBS only and you wish to cancel within 14 days, 3 or their agent must take the device and packaging back and cancel the contract, this wasnt always the case but it is now,I have enforced this on behalf of customers several times. And yes I mean the "clean the sim" procedure among others, wow that is just plain insulting, but ya gotta play along its their procedure and if you refuse to follow their steps that's when they have the oppertunity to arsedrag and refuse to bring the situation any further towards its natural conclusion. I'm all for escalating agressively when nessesary. Its seems we're pretty much on the same page here Dude, except you are considerably more wary of 3 than I am!!! Anyway I hope OP gets sorted out with something that is satisfactory and suits his needs.

Sponge Bob

TheCelticWizard wrote: »

Ok "No Quibble" is probably a strong phrase to use :-) Trust me though, if you get a modem on NBS only and you wish to cancel within 14 days, 3 or their agent must take the device and packaging back and cancel the contract, this wasnt always the case but it is now,I have enforced this on behalf of customers several times.

Ahhhh. but can the customer enforce their own 'rights' with 3 ????

And yes I mean the "clean the sim" procedure among others, wow that is just plain insulting, but ya gotta play along its their procedure and if you refuse to follow their steps that's when they have the oppertunity to arsedrag and refuse to bring the situation any further towards its natural conclusion.

Well it costs them about €3 to drag someone through 1 hour of script, repeat ad nauseam. Their best bet in fact is to crack off a formal complaint and cc consumerline@comreg.ie when doing so.

I'm all for escalating agressively when nessesary. Its seems we're pretty much on the same page here Dude, except you are considerably more wary of 3 than I am!!! Anyway I hope OP gets sorted out with something that is satisfactory and suits his needs.

I am perfectly clear on the advice. If it works then GREAT..now don't tell anyone or they will all flood the network.

If it does not work they are a babbling endless nightmare of pretend customer care and best gotten rid of fast. :cool:

runawaybishop

bealtine wrote: »

100s of people would disagree with you. There were at least 2 megathreads outlining poor speeds and various other problems like cdma CellBreathing on boards over the years all those 100s can't be wrong. I had 3 broadband when I was between proper broadband suppliers and the speeds were atrocious. My brother however has a reasonable speed on his dongle and he uses it everyday but as I tell him "don't tell your neighbours".

Do you disagree with any of the conclusions in these papers:
http://www.radioway.info/comparewireless/
http://irelandoffline.org/2010/01/wh...not-broadband/

Vocal forum minorities do not reflect the experiences of the majority. Anyone can say anything on a forum, as you are clearly showing. Back it up with proper numbers please.

Your first link is a whitepaper by a forum user here that says that fixed line > mobile broadband. No one is disputing that, why are you arguing that point anyway?

Your second link is broken, and is dated back in Jan 2010 anyway. NBS was only finished in October 2010.

bealtine

runawaybishop wrote: »

Vocal forum minorities do not reflect the experiences of the majority. Anyone can say anything on a forum, as you are clearly showing. Back it up with proper numbers please.

Your first link is a whitepaper by a forum user here that says that fixed line > mobile broadband. No one is disputing that, why are you arguing that point anyway?

Your second link is broken, and is dated back in Jan 2010 anyway. NBS was only finished in October 2010.

Since when has one or two users been a majority?

My point is simple to anybody trying to get broadband in rural Ireland is to stay well enough away from mobile midband and seek out FWA providers in their area.
Westnet was already suggested to the OP as were suggestions as to how to get better fixed line broadband
Your understanding of the technicalities of 3G are obviously flawed, you are lucky to get a good speed but due to the same technical aspects another user may not get reliable speeds.

runawaybishop

bealtine wrote: »

Since when has one or two users been a majority?

My point is simple to anybody trying to get broadband in rural Ireland is to stay well enough away from mobile midband and seek out FWA providers in their area.
Westnet was already suggested to the OP as were suggestions as to how to get better fixed line broadband
Your understanding of the technicalities of 3G are obviously flawed, you are lucky to get a good speed but due to the same technical aspects another user may not get reliable speeds.

I have used westnet. They charge 35 euro for 1mb, that scales to 512kb after 30 seconds. Three NBS is far better value.

The op stated fixed line was not an option.

You aren't providing any evidence for your claim that threes NBS service is a "sham".

Bill Shock

runawaybishop wrote: »

Vocal forum minorities do not reflect the experiences of the majority. Anyone can say anything on a forum, as you are clearly showing. Back it up with proper numbers please.

Your first link is a whitepaper by a forum user here that says that fixed line > mobile broadband. No one is disputing that, why are you arguing that point anyway?

Your second link is broken, and is dated back in Jan 2010 anyway. NBS was only finished in October 2010.

I think you're missing the point here.....it doesn't matter a damn to spokespersons/members of Ireland Off Line what you're experience is of the NBS....they are pathologically opposed to it and have been from day 1. They have no interest in hearing anyone's positive experience from this service but would most welcome any negative or bad perpectives as it helps bolster their view that (a) its not broadband and (b) it is bad for the people and communities it serves.

bealtine

Bill Shock wrote: »

I think you're missing the point here.....it doesn't matter a damn to spokespersons/members of Ireland Off Line what you're experience is of the NBS....they are pathologically opposed to it

With very good technical reasons and arguments the most important of which is CDMA Cell Breathing http://www.telecomabc.com/c/cell-breathing.html
In short the effect of cell breathing is one minute you can have a connection and then the next no connection at all. This is why I kept mentioning luck as a factor in 3G systems.

A graphic which illustrates this is to be found here:
http://info.irishwattystuff.com/comparewireless/img3.html

runawaybishop

bealtine wrote: »

With very good technical reasons and arguments the most important of which is CDMA Cell Breathing http://www.telecomabc.com/c/cell-breathing.html
In short the effect of cell breathing is one minute you can have a connection and then the next no connection at all. This is why I kept mentioning luck as a factor in 3G systems.

A graphic which illustrates this is to be found here:
http://info.irishwattystuff.com/comparewireless/img3.html

No one is denying that in theory this happens. Three, however, are contractually obliged to provide minimum speeds and contention. Are you claiming they breach their contract?

Do you have proof of this?

bealtine

runawaybishop wrote: »

No one is denying that in theory this happens. Three, however, are contractually obliged to provide minimum speeds and contention. Are you claiming they breach their contract?

Do you have proof of this?

It's not just a theory it's a well documented effect in the real world.

I am simply stating that it is technically impossible for 3 to meet these contractual speeds and connection obligations as it is for any 3G provider.

runawaybishop

bealtine wrote: »

It's not just a theory it's a well documented effect in the real world.

I am simply stating that it is technically impossible for 3 to meet these contractual speeds and connection obligations as it is for any 3G provider.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Communications+Development/National+Broadband+Scheme/NBS+FAQs.htm#Monitor%20performance

^^ that says the opposite of what you say. Can you link the documentation please?

Sponge Bob

The math is simple. There are 40,000 NBS connections and around 400 masts were installed or partially designated to serve them

A typical mast has three sectors. Assume all the sectors point at NBS customers.

Therefore each mast serves 40,000 / 400 or 100 punters per mast and each sector serves 33 punters.

As a sector has 14.4mbit of shared bandwith it simply cannot serve the punters with 1mbit broadband if half are online....assuming a perfect distribution of punters.

What actually happens is that some sectors serve 5 or 6 and others end up serving 50 or 60....until the overloaded sector breathes in and they get no service till after midnight that is. Those in sparsely populated sectors get a good service.

With 4g ( assuming 3 get a licence) they may be able to do some QoS and guarantee _something_ at all times. This is utterly impossible with 3g.

bealtine

runawaybishop wrote: »

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Communications+Development/National+Broadband+Scheme/NBS+FAQs.htm#Monitor%20performance

^^ that says the opposite of what you say. Can you link the documentation please?

The documentation for what? I've shown you what Cell Breathing is and that it is the reason why people can connect sometimes and sometimes cannot.
The Inverse Square law is another one that is relevant to connection speeds here too.
Google them...

You can ignore the physics and the technical facts and point to some patent nonsense on the DECNR website and say look even the DECNR can overcome the laws of physics.

runawaybishop

bealtine wrote: »

The documentation for what? I've shown you what Cell Breathing is and that it is the reason why people can connect sometimes and sometimes cannot.
The Inverse Square law is another one that is relevant to connection speeds here too.
Google them...

You can ignore the physics and the technical facts and point to some patent nonsense on the DECNR website and say look even the DECNR can overcome the laws of physics.

You claimed that NBS was a scam. Furthermore you claimed that 100s of people do not get the service they are contractually obliged to receive. Can provide the documentation/proof that shows this is actually happening?

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The math is simple. There are 40,000 NBS connections and around 400 masts were installed or partially designated to serve them

A typical mast has three sectors. Assume all the sectors point at NBS customers.

Therefore each mast serves 40,000 / 400 or 100 punters per mast and each sector serves 33 punters.

As a sector has 14.4mbit of shared bandwith it simply cannot serve the punters with 1mbit broadband if half are online....assuming a perfect distribution of punters.

What actually happens is that some sectors serve 5 or 6 and others end up serving 50 or 60....until the overloaded sector breathes in and they get no service till after midnight that is. Those in sparsely populated sectors get a good service.

With 4g ( assuming 3 get a licence) they may be able to do some QoS and guarantee _something_ at all times. This is utterly impossible with 3g.

Thanks Sponge Bob, thats far more constructive. Where is this information coming from?

Sponge Bob

runawaybishop wrote: »

You claimed that NBS was a scam. Furthermore you claimed that 100s of people do not get the service they are contractually obliged to receive. Can provide the documentation/proof that shows this is actually happening?

How many posts on Boards.ie describe the service in a 3G cell going at 7pm and coming back at midnight. 1000's I should think. This is a feature of 3G technology when faced with congestion.

Punters are supposed to get minimum 2.3mbits from July 2012. Pahhh

Where is this information coming from?

Subs > http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2011-11-15.1728.0&s=nbs+connections#g1730.0.r

Masts 160 dedicated and 390 total > http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/finally-its-access-all-areas-in-233m-broadband-rollout-1611642.html

baords dyslexic

This is what the Official 3 Representative has to say about speeds

Three: Patrick wrote: »

The criteria of the National Broadband Scheme, as set out by the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources state that the minimum speed requirement of the service is 1.6mbps subject to 22:1 contention rate. So to put it simply if there are even three other users serving off the serving site that it can mean speeds of 400kbps. If more than one device is connected through a wireless router it means the 400kbps is split to 200kbps.

Queries on this contractual agreement can be directed to the Department of Communication, Energy and Natural Resources.

runawaybishop

Sponge Bob wrote: »

How many posts on Boards.ie describe the service in a 3G cell going at 7pm and coming back at midnight. 1000's I should think. This is a feature of 3G technology when faced with congestion.

Punters are supposed to get minimum 2.3mbits from July 2012. Pahhh

Subs > http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2011-11-15.1728.0&s=nbs+connections#g1730.0.r

Masts 160 dedicated and 390 total > http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/finally-its-access-all-areas-in-233m-broadband-rollout-1611642.html

Forum posts aren't data You cannot rely on posters to tell the truth, or be representative. Three are contracted to supply the stated download speed and must supply it or be in breech of contract. They do, however, claim that the uptime is only 98.5%.

Your document is from 2009 btw and mentions sites, not number of masts or any specifications.

baords dyslexic wrote: »

This is what the Official 3 Representative has to say about speeds

Interesting, because that directly contradicts my understanding of their terms and conditions.

Minimum download speed – minimum speed in Mbps that files are downloaded by a Customer from the Internet at 3’s ISP.
1.6 Mbps

"Queries on this contractual agreement can be directed to the Department of Communication, Energy and Natural Resources."
^^ mail sent.

bealtine

runawaybishop wrote: »

Minimum download speed – minimum speed in Mbps that files are downloaded by a Customer from the Internet at 3’s ISP.
1.6 Mbps

"Queries on this contractual agreement can be directed to the Department of Communication, Energy and Natural Resources."
^^ mail sent.

Don't expect a sensible answer from the Department as the same people who are doing the monitoring are the ones that suggested and lobbied for the project in the first place. So they have a vested interest in demonstrating that the system "works" and works well. So any answer from the DECNR will reflect that "thinking" and attempt to put a positive spin on any technical shortcomings of the scheme.

squonk

It's slightly off topic but I wouldn't touch 3 with a barge pole after my last experience 18 months ago. I got an iPhone 4 off them after it came out. After less than 24 hours with the phone I realised that my local area was outside their 3G coverage and their GPRS coverage made the phone unusable for data. I was also plagued by messages popping up as I moved when the phone switched networks.

So, I got onto 3 and compained. I was between jobs at the time which was a good thing as it took me a further 24 hours to get anywhere with them. I spent literally hours on the phone dealing with morons who ran through their scripts. Eventually I had to point out that I had gone through all of their suggested resolution steps 3 times. They then tried to fob me off by telling me to go to a 3 store. I had to tell them flat out that that was ridiculous as the closest 3 store was in the next town and that it was guaranteed that there'd be 3 3G coverage there and I asked them how would that prove my underlying problem with coverage or allow anybody there to effect a solution. Eventually the rep relented and provided me with an address to return the handset to.

That wasn't the end of it. I later found that they charged me for the replacement cost of the handset and claimed they didn't receive it. I had proof of postage and sent them a copy. Some muppet left the box sitting in the corner of a warehouse obviously.

Based on that experience I wouldn't go near them for broadband, even if the option was to have 3 broadband or no broadband. I was particularly lucky I had the time to deal with their run around tactics the last time. Were I at work, that wouldn't have been possible. It beggars belief that the dept. gave them the NBS to run. I wouldn't trust them to feed my dog for a weekend let alone run anything more complex. They're a complete joke.

jay93

Did you ever pick up 3G at all on the iPhone there's a huge thread in the Three forum here about an issue with the iPhone on their network where it gets stuck on GPRS until you reset the phone or turn airplane mode on/off .
Or was it just the case of no 3G signal at all where you lived the iPhone i known for bad reception problems aswell so that wouldn't help either.

runawaybishop

bealtine wrote: »

Don't expect a sensible answer from the Department as the same people who are doing the monitoring are the ones that suggested and lobbied for the project in the first place. So they have a vested interest in demonstrating that the system "works" and works well. So any answer from the DECNR will reflect that "thinking" and attempt to put a positive spin on any technical shortcomings of the scheme.

Just got rminded of this thread.

The dept rang me. Said the terms on Threes and their own website are under review as they are unclear and confusing.

Sponge Bob

They've been up there for 3 years and now they notice.

baords dyslexic

runawaybishop wrote: »

Just got rminded of this thread.

The dept rang me. Said the terms on Threes and their own website are under review as they are unclear and confusing.

But they can't change them as a change of T&C would allow anyone who wanted the chance to cancel their contract.