Saorview logo

Premier

Surely the launch of the new triax tsc 114 combi which also carries the saorview logo on the box will now techniclly blow the protection/Use of the saorview logo out of the water.

Whats stopping installers now using a picture of the triax box with the logo on it on their websites or vans? Their only advertising a triax receiver which happenns to have a saorview logo on it?

Interesting times ahead

Cesium Clock

Premier wrote: »

Surely the launch of the new triax tsc 114 combi which also carries the saorview logo on the box will now techniclly blow the protection/Use of the saorview logo out of the water.

Whats stopping installers now using a picture of the triax box with the logo on it on their websites or vans? Their only advertising a triax receiver which happenns to have a saorview logo on it?

Interesting times ahead

no, from the insult to installers page


Logo Use
Please note, individual membership of Trade Bodies will not provide an entitlement to use the SAORVIEW logo, eg use of the SAORVIEW logo is not permitted on vans, vehicles or clothing.
As per the existing SAORVIEW brand guidelines, the use of the SAORVIEW logo is only permitted for use in conjunction with SAORVIEW Approved receivers at the point of sale by registered retailers, either through retail outlets or on online e-commerce sites.
SAORVIEW is a registered trademark owned by RTÉ.



another point that should be raised concerning saorview registered retailers,

is this anti competitive and against EU laws ?

could this be interpretated as a formation of a cartel ?

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/cartels/overview/index_en.html

also it appears this EU law has been ignored.

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/antitrust/overview_en.html

St Senan

What it appears is that every Tax paying, PL insurance carrying, legit, and Registered Installer who were told by RTE/Saorview to join 1 of the 3 trade bodies is been Starved of business, At this stage in the switch-over RTE,Saorview wont/ or are not able to do anything to police their precious logo. I would defiantly say that RTE/Saorview trade email address is completely full now since last May.
And personally I am not out to be Abusive or am I here to Mislead anybody with my comments. I am here as a TAX paying Installer who is competing against guys who are sticking up 2 Fingers to RTE/Saorview ( which saorview know all about) and a I cant use a LOGO/NAME to promote my business.
I have heard that there is a Mutated Logo been approved to amalgamate the saorview logo with the trade bodies Logo.
Its way to late for that now the damage has been done.

Saorview wants to work with the Local Installer

Yeah right

well saorview its 11 months later

St Senan

Cesium Clock wrote: »

no, from the insult to installers page


Logo Use
Please note, individual membership of Trade Bodies will not provide an entitlement to use the SAORVIEW logo, eg use of the SAORVIEW logo is not permitted on vans, vehicles or clothing.
As per the existing SAORVIEW brand guidelines, the use of the SAORVIEW logo is only permitted for use in conjunction with SAORVIEW Approved receivers at the point of sale by registered retailers, either through retail outlets or on online e-commerce sites.
SAORVIEW is a registered trademark owned by RTÉ.



another point that should be raised concerning saorview registered retailers,

is this anti competitive and against EU laws ?

could this be interpretated as a formation of a cartel ?

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/cartels/overview/index_en.html

also it appears this EU law has been ignored.

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/antitrust/overview_en.html

Very Interesting reading from those links Cesium

I wonder what sort of approval process that these so called approved Retailers have gone through. I wonder how many of them have a bricks and mortar shop front selling TV's and Electrical products. Or Have RTE/Saorview done checks on the installers that these so called Approved retailers have installing Aerials.

Cesium Clock

from the saorview website.

TV aerial / receiver installers will play a key role in ensuring the successful roll out of the SAORVIEW service in the next 18 months.

The aerial installation trade in Ireland is unregulated at present.

SAORVIEW is not in a position to establish the competence of any aerial installer. However, SAORVIEW is working with a number of trade bodies with competence in this area who undertake vetting and registration of their members. The following organisations are recognised by SAORVIEW and are listed on our website. These organisations will be able to provide consumers with a list of registered members in their area.

but the members of the 3 bodies adhere to the regulations stipulated by saorview as to the recognition of the 3 bodies.

and as the 3 bodies only take members who meet the criteria laid down by saorview, surely this is regulation.

St Senan

Cesium Clock wrote: »

from the saorview website.

TV aerial / receiver installers will play a key role in ensuring the successful roll out of the SAORVIEW service in the next 18 months.

The aerial installation trade in Ireland is unregulated at present.

SAORVIEW is not in a position to establish the competence of any aerial installer. However, SAORVIEW is working with a number of trade bodies with competence in this area who undertake vetting and registration of their members. The following organisations are recognised by SAORVIEW and are listed on our website. These organisations will be able to provide consumers with a list of registered members in their area.

but the members of the 3 bodies adhere to the regulations stipulated by saorview as to the recognition of the 3 bodies.

and as the 3 bodies only take members who meet the criteria laid down by saorview, surely this is regulation.

It is but not in this Country it seems.

Cesium Clock

First, agreements between two or more firms which restrict competition are prohibited by Article 101 of the Treaty, subject to some limited exceptions. This provision covers a wide variety of behaviours. The most obvious example of illegal conduct infringing Article 101 is a cartel between competitors (which may involve price-fixing or market sharing); For more information on cartels see the cartels section.

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/antitrust/overview_en.html

Extinction

Cesium Clock wrote: »

from the saorview website.

TV aerial / receiver installers will play a key role in ensuring the successful roll out of the SAORVIEW service in the next 18 months.

The aerial installation trade in Ireland is unregulated at present.

SAORVIEW is not in a position to establish the competence of any aerial installer. However, SAORVIEW is working with a number of trade bodies with competence in this area who undertake vetting and registration of their members. The following organisations are recognised by SAORVIEW and are listed on our website. These organisations will be able to provide consumers with a list of registered members in their area.

but the members of the 3 bodies adhere to the regulations stipulated by saorview as to the recognition of the 3 bodies.

and as the 3 bodies only take members who meet the criteria laid down by saorview, surely this is regulation.

Can anyone tell me how RTE came to the conclusion that the aerial trade is unregulated? I feel we are regulated, not under one umbrella group but by many different aspects of law. Is it even an accurate statement by RTE to say we are unregulated?

St Senan

Extinction wrote: »

Can anyone tell me how RTE came to the conclusion that the aerial trade is unregulated? I feel we are regulated, not under one umbrella group but by many different aspects of law. Is it even an accurate statement by RTE to say we are unregulated?

Can anyone tell me how a Hardware shop got approval as a Saorview approved retailer.

Extinction

Extinction wrote: »

Can anyone tell me how RTE came to the conclusion that the aerial trade is unregulated? I feel we are regulated, not under one umbrella group but by many different aspects of law. Is it even an accurate statement by RTE to say we are unregulated?

Or should I ask, what aspects of the aerial trade are not regulated in Ireland?

Compton

scaller wrote: »

Can anyone tell me how a Hardware shop got approval as a Saorview approved retailer.

they sell a saorview approved product its as simple as that!

St Senan

There are many many Installers including myself who are selling and Installing Aerials, Dishes and Dixiboxes in Ireland for years and we were refused approval, RTE/ Saorview told Installers at their trade seminars that Saorview Receivers and Idtvs would only be sold through TV and Electrical retail shops. Some one in RTE/Saorview should spend time and look at their Electrical Retailer list on their website.

Cantona's Collars

shblob wrote: »

they sell a saorview approved product its as simple as that!

But who installs the saorview equipment for them?

Compton

scaller wrote: »

There are many many Installers including myself who are selling and Installing Aerials, Dishes and Dixiboxes in Ireland for years and we were refused approval, RTE/ Saorview told Installers at their trade seminars that Saorview Receivers and Idtvs would only be sold through TV and Electrical retail shops. Some one in RTE/Saorview should spend time and look at their Electrical Retailer list on their website.

I think thats the whole point they're getting at you have to be a retailer/shop in order to be an approved seller. So technically if you had a website you could get approved if you were selling STBs?

Cesium Clock

shblob wrote: »

I think thats the whole point they're getting at you have to be a retailer/shop in order to be an approved seller. So technically if you had a website you could get approved if you were selling STBs?

not if you are offering an installation service as well as the box,
installers offering an aerial installation to go with the box are not allowed to be beome a registered retailer.

Stupid but very true.

Extinction

Cesium Clock wrote: »

not if you are offering an installation service as well as the box,
installers offering an aerial installation to go with the box are not allowed to be beome a registered retailer.

Stupid but very true.

But retailers can and do offer installations to go woth a box,both online and in bricks and mortar shops, its a slap in the face to installers to say they cant become retailers while allowing retailers to become installers. Can anyone in RTE/Saorview see this or do they think we are all rogues just because there is no umbrella group with responsibility for the regulations already in place for us??

Out of the 9 registered online retailers 2 also offer installations on their websites and one of them even advises that all customers should get a new aerial installed. If Saorview cant monitor the activity of 9 nine online retailers what hope have they got?

St Senan

There is a very big Difference between a Hardware shop and a Electrical retailer.

Cesium Clock

'Saorview' is a brand name for a TV platform,

do they have right to

say Installers are unregulated ?
register retailers ?
exclude installers who offer a full installation and equipment service?

surely their job as a state owned PSB is to promote the new 'Sorview' service and educate the people, who pay their wages, on how to receive the service via saorview certified equipment, no matter who is selling the certified saorview equipment.

cast_iron

Cesium Clock wrote: »

do they have right to

say Installers are unregulated ?

Yes. Because they are not regulated in an installer sense.

register retailers ?

Why would they not?

exclude installers who offer a full installation and equipment service?

Where do they say this?

surely their job as a state owned PSB is to promote the new 'Sorview' service and educate the people, who pay their wages, on how to receive the service via saorview certified equipment, no matter who is selling the certified saorview equipment.

Agreed. The notion of a registered retailer is a bit silly to me too.

cast_iron

scaller wrote: »

.... and I cant use a LOGO/NAME to promote my business.

Please stop saying this as if it's true, as it is not. If you become a member of 1 of the 3 trade bodies, you can use the Saorview/trade body logo.

You are correct in pointing out how all the cowboys seem to be getting away with it. Something should be done there.

Are you a member of any of the 3 trade bodies? I assume this is something they are discussing with Saorview.

Extinction

cast_iron wrote: »

Please stop saying this as if it's true, as it is not. If you become a member of 1 of the 3 trade bodies, you can use the Saorview/trade body logo.

You are correct in pointing out how all the cowboys seem to be getting away with it. Something should be done there.

Are you a member of any of the 3 trade bodies? I assume this is something they are discussing with Saorview.

It is true, the logo isn't advertising, it simply says the trade bodies are recognised. This is what saorview say in regard to using the logo as advertising by installers

'The SAORVIEW logo may not be used on vehicles, or in any other circumstances to promote installation services'

It seems pretty clear to me that they are saying the logo cant be used in any circumstance to promote business for installers.

Extinction

cast_iron wrote: »

Yes. Because they are not regulated in an installer sense.
So what your saying is that all aspects of our business are regulated but not under a single umbrella group called the Registered Aerial Installers Network or something like that?

What does 'not regulated in an installer sense' actually mean?

Why would they not?
Because they are unable to police the electrical retailers they have given approval to never mind the retailers who have not been involved in the sale of television equipment to, they say in their terms and conditions to the retailers that they must
• Work with SAORVIEW to ensure that your staff has the necessary training and information to provide simple and accurate information to your customers to help them make the switch
Who gives this necessary training?

Where do they say this?
When I applied to be a retailer they told me that I had all I needed to be a registered retailer but they couldn't approve me because I am an installer. They have repeated this to me at two separate meetings organised by 1 of the trade bodies.

Cesium Clock

cast_iron wrote: »

Yes. Because they are not regulated in an installer sense.

well whats the point of Saorview recognising the 3 installer bodies ?

wrote: »

exclude installers who offer a full installation and equipment service? .

cast_iron wrote: »

Where do they say this?

in the saorview reply email when an installer as above applies to be a registered retailer.

cast_iron

Extinction wrote: »

It seems pretty clear to me that they are saying the logo cant be used in any circumstance to promote business for installers.

The registered bodies state otherwise here.
I'm not arguing that point anymore with you.

What does 'not regulated in an installer sense' actually mean?

Well you said earlier:
"I feel we are regulated, not under one umbrella group but by many different aspects of law."
My point was that as an industry, installers are not regulated. Like electricians, doctors, nurses, lawyers...
Again, I'm not going to debate that point any further as it's clear cut.

Why would they not?
Because they are unable to police the electrical retailers they have given approval to never mind the retailers who have not been involved in the sale of television equipment to, they say in their terms and conditions to the retailers that they must
• Work with SAORVIEW to ensure that your staff has the necessary training and information to provide simple and accurate information to your customers to help them make the switch
Who gives this necessary training?

A valid point in fairness.
I tend to agree the notion of a registered retailer is daft. Sure Tesco sell the boxes!

Where do they say this?
When I applied to be a retailer they told me that I had all I needed to be a registered retailer but they couldn't approve me because I am an installer. They have repeated this to me at two separate meetings organised by 1 of the trade bodies.

I'm not doubting you, but that's hard to believe.
So you have a bricks and mortar shop, but because you also have an installation business as part of it, you can't become a registered retailer?
Why did you need to mention that fact that you have an installation arm of the business in the first place?

Extinction

cast_iron wrote: »

Yes. Because they are not regulated in an installer sense.
Why would they not?
Where do they say this?

Agreed. The notion of a registered retailer is a bit silly to me too.

cast_iron wrote: »

The registered bodies state otherwise here.
I'm not arguing that point anymore with you.

Well you said earlier:
"I feel we are regulated, not under one umbrella group but by many different aspects of law."
My point was that as an industry, installers are not regulated. Like electricians, doctors, nurses, lawyers...
Again, I'm not going to debate that point any further as it's clear cut.

A valid point in fairness.
I tend to agree the notion of a registered retailer is daft. Sure Tesco sell the boxes!

I'm not doubting you, but that's hard to believe.
So you have a bricks and mortar shop, but because you also have an installation business as part of it, you can't become a registered retailer?
Why did you need to mention that fact that you have an installation arm of the business in the first place?

Ok no arguing, we will agree to differ....

I mentioned it because I didnt expect it to be a problem, there was already a local installer registered as a retailer, he is still registered as O Connor Brothers Tipperary Aerial Installers on the approved retailers list, my own fault for not taking a closer look at the terms and conditions before applying. I have pointed this out to Saorview about 9 months ago but he's still registered as a retailer and I'm not.

cast_iron

Extinction wrote: »

I mentioned it because I didnt expect it to be a problem, there was already a local installer registered as a retailer, he is still registered as O Connor Brothers Tipperary Aerial Installers on the approved retailers list, my own fault for not taking a closer look at the terms and conditions before applying. I have pointed this out to Saorview about 9 months ago but he's still registered as a retailer and I'm not.

I don't mind debating and arguing valid points and arguments. That's what boards is about. I won't keep repeated that black is black when someone has decided is blue. Opinion is one thing, facts are a different matter.

So I ask a simple fact based question: do you have a bricks and mortar shop that can be seen as competent in the area of selling tv boxes? I don't require any personal details of what it's called or anything.

Extinction

cast_iron wrote: »

I don't mind debating and arguing valid points and arguments. That's what boards is about. I won't keep repeated that black is black when someone has decided is blue. Opinion is one thing, facts are a different matter.

So I ask a simple fact based question: do you have a bricks and mortar shop that can be seen as competent in the area of selling tv boxes?

Yes I have a bricks and morter with both Saorview approved TV's and Receivers working and on display in the shop. The customers can come in and pick up the remotes and choose between upgrading their TV's or buying receivers and walk out the door with them if they are happy that they have a good enough reception from their current aerial.

Nobody from Saorview ever came to see the shop ether by the way, just refused out of hand to approve it because I'm an installer. None of it makes any sense to me.

cast_iron

Extinction wrote: »

Yes I have a bricks and morter with both Saorview approved TV's and Receivers working and on display in the shop. The customers can come in and pick up the remotes and choose between upgrading their TV's or buying receivers and walk out the door with them if they are happy that they have a good enough reception from their current aerial.

Nobody from Saorview ever came to see the shop ether by the way, just refused out of hand to approve it because I'm an installer. None of it makes any sense to me.

That's very strange indeed. I wouldn't let it drop. If they knowingly ignore others who are breaking that rule, I can't see how they can just enforce it on you.

Can you publish a scan of the refusal letter?

Extinction

cast_iron wrote: »

That's very strange indeed. I wouldn't let it drop. If they knowingly ignore others who are breaking that rule, I can't see how they can just enforce it on you.

Can you publish a scan of the refusal letter?

Never got a letter, got an email saying they ''couldnt authorise me at the current time''
I emailed back asking for a reason but never got a reply, I eventually was given the reason by phone and as I said earlier I brought it up at 2 trade body meetings with saorview but got nowhere with it.

cast_iron

Extinction wrote: »

Never got a letter, got an email saying they ''couldnt authorise me at the current time''
I emailed back asking for a reason but never got a reply, I eventually was given the reason by phone and as I said earlier I brought it up at 2 trade body meetings with saorview but got nowhere with it.

Well insist on getting it in writing. Then speak to your local representative would be my advice. It all seems very odd to me.

Extinction

It just seems to be the way they do business, it seems disorganised in Saorview, there are a lot of contradictions in the things that they do, at least we who are with trade bodies have some chance of showing we arent cowboys but what chance has a competent installer who for whatever reason doesnt want to join a trade body? At this point in time the people who represent saorview do seem to have let themselves down and the cock ups like the ear to the ground show shouldn't be accepted, its just the latest in a long list of avoidable mistakes that started when the marketing experts came back with a dog and cat to explain about DTT and they have been on a downward spiral since, how on earth did anyone think an elderly person could identify with two cartoon characters and associate them with TV? Saorview have now looked for help from the GA and macras to get the message out and dont seem to realise that competent installers are a greater asset to them in getting the message out about saorview.

cast_iron

Well I see no reason for refusal in the fact that you have an installation arm.
In fact, the only requirement relating to installation is the following:
"Provide your customers with a contact or informed advice on aerial suppliers / installers
and other ancillary equipment if required."

How did you even come to mention the fact you do installs?
I think there must be a few facts missing from this case.

Extinction

As I said earlier I didnt pay as much attention to the terms and conditions as I should have so when I came to this question on the registration form 'Do you have a designated installer network?' I answered yes, thinking it wasnt a problem because other installers were already registered as retailers. I got a call then from saorview asking about who does the installations and I said that I did, the person who asked just said ok thanks for your time and I got the email the next day to say I couldn't be a registered retailer. It was as simple as that.

cast_iron

Well I suspect they must think you are an installer only or something. Otherwise this would have been cleared up quite easily. That question about "Do you have a designated installer network?" is hardly a trick question, as in - answer yes and your application is denied.
I stand by my claim that I think there are some facts missing here. Are you willing to put up a picture or details of your shop?

Extinction

cast_iron wrote: »

Well I suspect they must think you are an installer only or something. Otherwise this would have been cleared up quite easily. That question about "Do you have a designated installer network?" is hardly a trick question, as in - answer yes and your application is denied.
I stand by my claim that I think there are some facts missing here. Are you willing to put up a picture or details of your shop?

I am an installer by the way and Ive made that perfectly clear so I dont know why you say they must suspect Im an installer??

If it couldnt be cleared up on two occasions when I took the opertunity to ask at face to face meetings with saorview and with other members of the trade body present then obviously it cant be easily cleared up.

No I wont post any details or post photos, I have no reason to post them here, its not something that is going to be cleared up by boards either so why would I when I have so far gotten nowhere with face to face meetings? It would hardly help my case now would it? I haven't said I'm finished with it yet.

I dont see why you assume you are in a position to claim there are facts missing, are you in some way involved with saorview and think the authorisation department work in a different way or are you an installer who has been registered as a retailer? What exactly do you know about the business and how much do you know about the registration process? Have you registered and seen the process? Do you assume that the process is the way that you would have it? It is quite different to how you and I think it should work and it would probably work a lot better if it was indeed run that way but you can find out how it actually is by calling saorview and asking will they register installers as retailers, the number is 1890 222 012 or you could put your assumptions to one side and listen to all of the installers who have been highlighting for a year at this stage that they are being refused authorisation as retailers. We arent lying about it.

Cesium Clock

cast_iron wrote: »

Please stop saying this as if it's true, as it is not. If you become a member of 1 of the 3 trade bodies, you can use the Saorview/trade body logo.

please stop refuting plain and simple facts for your own argumentive and now quite rediculous statements.

Installers cannot use the saorview logo on its own, or any saorview marketing material, or the word 'Saorview' on clothing, vehicles, websites , or promotional material.

The above is only for use by registered retailers at the point of sale.

Installers who are members of the 3 trade bodies can use a merged logo that states the trade body is 'recognised by saorview'. Which is hardly advertising for saorview products.

if you have evidence to disprove the above please post it.

marclt

Thanks for all your comments guys.

I think we can go no further with this thread.

Thread closed.

MiCr0

We keep getting reported posts from these saorview threads.

Can some one sum this up for a lay-person why this is such an issue?

It would appear that the logo is being used by people who are not allowed.
Is there anything more going on than this?

I understand that saorview won't approve installers - that's their decision (for what ever reason).
They have suggested that consumers contact one of 3 trade bodies for installers:

• Confederation of Aerial Industries Ltd
• Irish Satellite and Aerial Association
• National Guild of Master Craftsmen

They also have a very clear policy on use of logo's and installers

Please be advised that aerial installers are not permitted to use the SAORVIEW or RTÉ logos on clothing or vehicles. When choosing an aerial installer, our advice is to ask friends or neighbours for a recommendation or to choose one from one of the three recognised registration bodies listed above; installers registered with these bodies will have the necessary competence to complete the installation. If someone is coming into your home to do some work, it is always advisable to check their track record and ask for references from previous clients. If you feel that you have been misled in relation to the sales of equipment or installation services please contact the National Consumer Agency on 1890 432 432 or 01 402 5555.

They have approved STB's and iDTV's listed on their website. These are allowed to use the logo.

Everything here seems very straight forward, am i missing something?

//MiCr0