Running 4:00m/m pace

seanynova

is there a specific technique to running at 4:00m/m pace....not necessarily for a mile but lets say an extended period of time like 400-800m.

covering say 400m in approx 60secs @ 180spm is 2.22m per stride(4.44m per leg stride), so i figure that is a large stride length is one of the requirements.

increasing leg turnover to 190spm would require a stride length of 2.1m(4.2m)

either way a large stride length is required, how is this achieved?
flexibility, core(?)....??
what are the barriers/factors that come into play when trying to run that fast? leg fatigue, lactice acid build up....???
and how are they overcome?

thanks in advance!

woodchopper

You need a decent aerobic engine, and decent leg turnover. Simple. If you have these two then you will be alright. If not keep training. Way too much talk on this forum about core, pacing, flexibility etc. Get out and train and there will be no limits on running that pace unless you are an old man like me!

seanynova

woodchopper wrote: »

You need a decent aerobic engine, and decent leg turnover. Simple. If you have these two then you will be alright. If not keep training. Way too much talk on this forum about core, pacing, flexibility etc. Get out and train and there will be no limits on running that pace unless you are an old man like me!

so is having the ability to run 4m/m pace is the same as training and gaining the ability to running 6m/m pace, more training 5:30m/m pace.....more training 4:30m/m etc etc.

Pisco Sour

Surely there's a huge difference between running 4m/m pace for 400m and 4m/m pace for say 800m or 1200m? Over 400m you are sprinting, while over 800m and longer you aren't. Would there not be differences in form?

seanynova

04072511 wrote: »

Surely there's a huge difference between running 4m/m pace for 400m and 4m/m pace for say 800m or 1200m? Over 400m you are sprinting, while over 800m and longer you aren't. Would there not be differences in form?

true, i guess there is a big difference when it comes to racing ability between 400m & 800m at ~4:00m/m pace

you're running sub4:00m/m pace a fair bit these days...weather in training or races....what factors helped you to get to that level?

and if you were to train to hold that pace for 800-1500m, how would you do that?

maybe as woodchopper said, aerobic capacity, along with the leg turnover...i dont know

im not throwing this out cos i want to run a sub4 mile or anything, just wondering how the ability of running at that pace is developped.

RandyMann

seanynova wrote: »

is there a specific technique to running at 4:00m/m pace....not necessarily for a mile but lets say an extended period of time like 400-800m.

covering say 400m in approx 60secs @ 180spm is 2.22m per stride(4.44m per leg stride), so i figure that is a large stride length is one of the requirements.

increasing leg turnover to 190spm would require a stride length of 2.1m(4.2m)

either way a large stride length is required, how is this achieved?
flexibility, core(?)....??
what are the barriers/factors that come into play when trying to run that fast? leg fatigue, lactice acid build up....???
and how are they overcome?

thanks in advance!

On the point of stride length, if you were to run a 12 sec 100m with a 180spm, it would mean having a stride length of 5.55m. Most peoples stm doesnt change a whole lot so it means that the stride length is important.
Increasing stride length is about staying airborne longer.
So on the point of running technique, it would mean better mechanics and the ability to genearate more force from the ground to increase air time. It means getting stronger that you can generate more power per stride.
This would relate to the technique/power you would need to run at 4min mile pace and to agree with you, its the stride length is the dominating factor.
To achieve it, its as you say flexiblity, core and strength, you need to be strong relative to your weight which is power and depending on how long you want to run at 4min mile pace, aerobic capacity etc. Theres obviously a lot more to add though....

Pisco Sour

seanynova wrote: »

true, i guess there is a big difference when it comes to racing ability between 400m & 800m at ~4:00m/m pace

you're running sub4:00m/m pace a fair bit these days...weather in training or races....what factors helped you to get to that level?

and if you were to train to hold that pace for 800-1500m, how would you do that?

maybe as woodchopper said, aerobic capacity, along with the leg turnover...i dont know

im not throwing this out cos i want to run a sub4 mile or anything, just wondering how the ability of running at that pace is developped.

I guess I am going at 4.00 min/m pace with 59 second 400s, but to be honest I never really think of myself as going at sub 4 pace, simply because I am sprinting, and therefore would be adopting different form, foot strike etc to somebody who would be going at such a pace for a longer period of time.

Have you a particular goal in mind? Sub 60 for 400, Sub 90 for 600m?

I can only speak for the 400 as I am inexperienced with regards training and racing at the longer distances, but for the sprint events you need to run on your toes at all time. It comes with practice.

seanynova

RandyMann wrote: »

On the point of stride length, if you were to run a 12 sec 100m with a 180spm, it would mean having a stride length of 5.55m. Most peoples stm doesnt change a whole lot so it means that the stride length is important.
Increasing stride length is about staying airborne longer.
So on the point of running technique, it would mean better mechanics and the ability to genearate more force from the ground to increase air time. It means getting stronger that you can generate more power per stride.
This would relate to the technique/power you would need to run at 4min mile pace and to agree with you, its the stride length is the dominating factor.
To achieve it, its as you say flexiblity, core and strength, you need to be strong relative to your weight which is power and depending on how long you want to run at 4min mile pace, aerobic capacity etc. Theres obviously a lot more to add though....

i guess, even with the adequate strength the increased forces on the body become a factor for injury concern., with being airborne for longer and thus increasing ground impact.

drills/sessions like sprint hills for strength & 100-200m repititions/strides for form i guess
large ''across the board' aerobic & anerobic capacity(threshold, VO2max etc)

04072511 wrote: »

I guess I am going at 4.00 min/m pace with 59 second 400s, but to be honest I never really think of myself as going at sub 4 pace, simply because I am sprinting, and therefore would be adopting different form, foot strike etc to somebody who would be going at such a pace for a longer period of time.

Have you a particular goal in mind? Sub 60 for 400, Sub 90 for 600m?

I can only speak for the 400 as I am inexperienced with regards training and racing at the longer distances, but for the sprint events you need to run on your toes at all time. It comes with practice.

forgot about the difference in foot strike/stride in sprinting and distance running..

no goals in terms on shorter distances, ill give 1500m a go next winter for indoors here and maybe an 800m for the craic but it will all be towards getting faster over 3-10k.

if you transitioned to longer, eg 3k do you think after a few weeks specific training and higher mileage etc. the sprint training would aid you and you would see significant time improovment or general ability in rnning longer

Pisco Sour

seanynova wrote: »

if you transitioned to longer, eg 3k do you think after a few weeks specific training and higher mileage etc. the sprint training would aid you and you would see significant time improovment or general ability in rnning longer

Interesting question, and to be honest I wouldn’t know at all. All my training is done with 400 in mind, and I run some 800m races off no 800 training, just off my sprint training, and the fall off is huge. 59.1 for 400m, and 2:27.6 for 800m. Maybe with more suitable middle distance spikes (rather than the sprint spikes which I use) I could take another maybe 2 seconds off that, but the point still stands. Last weekend I ran a 1500m in 5:27 (although it was at the end of a decathlon admittadly. So for 3k and up the fall off would be even more dramatic (If I ran a 3k right now I reckon I wouldn’t break 12 minutes!). There would be benefits from the sprint training of course with regards stride turnover and efficiency, but endurance would be the most important thing, and that would take a hell of a lot more than a few weeks for somebody like myself.

Just to be clear, I will not be trying this experiment.:D

seanynova

04072511 wrote: »

Just to be clear, I will not be trying this experiment.:D

i thought as much

RoyMcC

RandyMann wrote: »

Increasing stride length is about staying airborne longer.QUOTE]

Huh? I know I've taken one sentence out of context but you're surely not serious? How is my power being generated whilst I'm airborne? You need your foot back on the ground to generate thrust.

There are only two variables to running speed - turnover and stride length. Both are in conflict with one another. Ultimately you improve both by simply training and incorporating strength and conditioning to your regime.

dna_leri

seanynova wrote: »

if you transitioned to longer, eg 3k do you think after a few weeks specific training and higher mileage etc. the sprint training would aid you and you would see significant time improovment or general ability in rnning longer

I would say, yes.

I started back running doing 5-10K and then after reaching a decent level of fitness, I did some sprints (100-400m) for a year or 2. Then after an injury, I went back to the 5-10K. Once I regained fitness, I was at a higher level than when I did distance work before. Now I am trying to put it altogether in someting like 800m+.

In my experience the sprint training improves your form (running economy) significantly. Likewise the aerobic endurance helps for the longer sprints and ability to train harder. I suspect that the ability to recruit different muscles helps at times when you are fatigued also. The overall benefit in doing faster paced work is that your base speed is increased and slower speeds (e.g. 5K pace) then feels easier.

I do not know whether a few weeks would be enough to see the difference but with the right mix of training, it certainly will help.

RandyMann

RoyMcC wrote: »

RandyMann wrote: »

Increasing stride length is about staying airborne longer.QUOTE]

Huh? I know I've taken one sentence out of context but you're surely not serious? How is my power being generated whilst I'm airborne? You need your foot back on the ground to generate thrust.

There are only two variables to running speed - turnover and stride length. Both are in conflict with one another. Ultimately you improve both by simply training and incorporating strength and conditioning to your regime.

Yes I am serious. The stride length meaning the distance between the two points of where your opposing feet leave and hit the ground. The more thrust you generate from the ground when your foot hits it, the further you carry yourself through the air to your next foot strike, which means a bigger stride length. This means you cover greater distance per stride.
Surely you are not thinking that stride length is measured with both feet on the ground while stationery?
If you generate more thrust going forward it means you carry yourself through the air for longer before you hit the ground. Hitting the ground sooner would be counter productive.
Over striding is something different where your are over reaching with your lead leg etc and the braking effect which I am not talking about above.
To add something, it is important to minimise ground contact time and sprinters have less ground contact time than non sprinters which effectivley means more time spent in the air.

RoyMcC

I'm still struggling here Randy - you speak of 'airborne' as if it were a good thing. In fact the instant you leave the ground you're decelerating and you continue to decelerate until you kiss the ground and push off again.

Anyway I doubt if there's anything to be gained by analysing it. In essence it's pretty simple. A good training regime will help optimise leg turnover and stride length and that's what we all do without overthinking.

RandyMann

RoyMcC wrote: »

I'm still struggling here Randy - you speak of 'airborne' as if it were a good thing. In fact the instant you leave the ground you're decelerating and you continue to decelerate until you kiss the ground and push off again.

Anyway I doubt if there's anything to be gained by analysing it. In essence it's pretty simple. A good training regime will help optimise leg turnover and stride length and that's what we all do without overthinking.

Ok Roy, it just means that the more power you can generate, the harder you push off the ground, the less time you spend on it, which means you travel further per foot strike. The longer your foot is on the ground, you are dissipating your energy into the ground rather than directing it forward.
Top sprinters have roughly 30% less ground contact time than average runners.
Nothing to be gained by myself or maybe anyone here by the analysis, but yes it just happens though when you sprint or care to train for it.

jaymack75

seanynova wrote: »

im not throwing this out cos i want to run a sub4 mile or anything,

seany - u know u want to

seanynova

dna_leri wrote: »

I would say, yes.

I started back running doing 5-10K and then after reaching a decent level of fitness, I did some sprints (100-400m) for a year or 2. Then after an injury, I went back to the 5-10K. Once I regained fitness, I was at a higher level than when I did distance work before. Now I am trying to put it altogether in someting like 800m+.

In my experience the sprint training improves your form (running economy) significantly. Likewise the aerobic endurance helps for the longer sprints and ability to train harder. I suspect that the ability to recruit different muscles helps at times when you are fatigued also. The overall benefit in doing faster paced work is that your base speed is increased and slower speeds (e.g. 5K pace) then feels easier.

I do not know whether a few weeks would be enough to see the difference but with the right mix of training, it certainly will help.

the longer runner would use strides to have a similar effect for improovments in economy, form etc it seems....prob no harm for all runners to spend some time going this kind of work..

jaymack75 wrote: »

seany - u know u want to

sub4 is in the bag....i did the sub 3 marathon thing, and im onto smaller and lesser chalenges now.

when im done ill focus on a sub10sec 100m sprint