12th Century relic of St Laurnce O'Toole stolen from Christ Church Cathedral Dublin!

LordSutch

The 12th Century preserved heart of the Patron Saint of Dublin, Saint Laurence O'Toole, has been stolen from Christ Church Cathedral. RTE News.

The Cathedral was opened at 9.30am, to no alarm activation and no sign of any break-in. The heart was believed to be stolen between last night and noon today. The Heart of St Laurence O'Toole was kept in a wooden heart shaped container sealed within a small iron barred box. The one time Archbishop St Laurence O'Toole was born Lorcán Ua Tuathail in Castledermot, Co Kildare in 1128 and known as Laurence O'Toole, died November 1180 in Normandy France.

Full account > http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0303/laurenceotoole.html

Manach

It is not only the lost of a historial cultural artifact that is to be deplored,
it is that this, and other recent such thefts, show a breakdown of a society's inner cohesion.
Where once the there was a common overarching system of belief and custom, there is now a multitude of practices, a small few of which lack any virtue beyond a centred gratification of the self.

Doc Farrell

Very strange and disappointing behaviour. I was at a mass in the inner city tonight and twice the priest, a quiet man, asked that adults at the back to stop talking/ arguing. The incident happened during the celebration of the Eucharist, which made it even weirder. As this was early evening in the inner city there could be any number of reasons for this kind of behaviour but it was strange to witness that absence of basic self awareness in Irish adults.

Here's a quick bio of St Lawrence O'Toole. Those interested in history or the movie Becket, who lived at the same time, might find it of interest.

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~frduffy/re/school/larry.html

LordSutch

I'm surprised there is so little interest in this disgraceful theft.

Doc Farrell

LordSutch wrote: »

I'm surprised there is so little interest in this disgraceful theft.

It has surprised me too to be honest, however I suppose boards.ie is not exactly The Irish Catholic. It is such a weird theft that it sounds like a dare or a prank and unfortunately, considering the mentality it takes to go through with this, it's possible that the saints heart will be dumped in a ditch or a river.
If it were a Buddhist relic I think different medias might be more supportive but there is so much bias against the Catholic church now that it seems few in the public eye wish to break from the mob and be seen as uncool or, God forbid, religious.
I stood inside the door of the inner city church I go to today and a couple of young addicts came in and left their baseball caps on. I could feel a bigotry rising in me towards them but it turns out that they really wanted to be there! I felt like such an asshole. I guess what I'm trying to say is that before I jump to any conclusions as to who stole it or why I should remember that there are many hundreds of thousands on this island as nauseated by this stupid act as I am.
But this type of religious vandalism does raise unsettling questions as to how young people perceive what it is that the church actually does and where they are getting their views from.

Benny_Cake

Doc Farrell wrote: »

It has surprised me too to be honest, however I suppose boards.ie is not exactly The Irish Catholic. It is such a weird theft that it sounds like a dare or a prank and unfortunately, considering the mentality it takes to go through with this, it's possible that the saints heart will be dumped in a ditch or a river.
If it were a Buddhist relic I think different medias might be more supportive but there is so much bias against the Catholic church now that it seems few in the public eye wish to break from the mob and be seen as uncool or, God forbid, religious.
I stood inside the door of the inner city church I go to today and a couple of young addicts came in and left their baseball caps on. I could feel a bigotry rising in me towards them but it turns out that they really wanted to be there! I felt like such an asshole. I guess what I'm trying to say is that before I jump to any conclusions as to who stole it or why I should remember that there are many hundreds of thousands on this island as nauseated by this stupid act as I am.
But this type of religious vandalism does raise unsettling questions as to how young people perceive what it is that the church actually does and where they are getting their views from.

To be honest, we don't know who did this yet, or why they did it, but it seems to have been a reasonably professional job. It does raise the question as to why, I can't imagine that there is much of a black market for relics? It's unlikely to have been motivated by an anti-Catholic bias, given it's a Church of Ireland cathedral.

Doc Farrell

True, I still switch between catholic and Christian unconsciously, I guess I don't really see st Lawrence as being church of Ireland!

Benny_Cake

Doc Farrell wrote: »

True, I still switch between catholic and Christian unconsciously, I guess I don't really see st Lawrence as being church of Ireland!

That would be an ecumenical matter! I suppose since he was the first archbishop of Dublin, but the Catholic and COI archbishops could claim to be his successors.

Fuinseog

LordSutch wrote: »

I'm surprised there is so little interest in this disgraceful theft.

because the media is aggressively secular and 'liberal' folk do not want to hear about relics unless it involves other religions. these thefts only seem to have started after our Taoiseach launched a despicable anti catholic tirade.

Benny_Cake

Fuinseog wrote: »

because the media is aggressively secular and 'liberal' folk do not want to hear about relics unless it involves other religions. these thefts only seem to have started after our Taoiseach launched a despicable anti catholic tirade.

You only have to go to Google News to see that there has been a lot of coverage - the director of communications at Christchurch said that there has been a massive amount of publicity. Not sure how this one can be pinned on Enda!

qrrgprgua

On bus happened to hear 2 guys talking about the Relic of St. Lawrence O'Toole. One guy was saying that technically it was not stealing since the Relic did not belong to the Church of Ireland, St. Lawrence was a Catholic Bishop, not a protestant. The Cathedral was seized from the Catholic Church and never returned. Interesting... I won't if some over zealous Catholic stole it?

Has the COI ever considered returning the Cathedral to its original owners?

LordSutch

Christ Church Cathedral Dean appeals for return of preserved heart of St Laurence O’Toole.

Police and church leaders now believe a religious fanatic stole the preserved heart of Dublin’s patron saint Laurence O’Toole from the City’s Christchurch Cathedral. The Dean of the Cathedral has also issued a desperate please for the return of the heart. “I am appealing to whoever did this to hand it back; it’s a desecration of a holy place. I’ll take it back without any questions asked, we just want it back,” said devastated cathedral Dean, the Reverend Dermot Dunne.

Reverend Dunne also said that police suspect the thief hid overnight before stealing the 800-year-old preserved heart from a small heart-shaped wooden box which was sealed in an iron-barred case. “The vergers realised it was gone when they opened the cathedral at 9.30am on Saturday morning,” Reverend Dunne told the Irish Independent.

Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Christchurch-Cathedral-Dean-appeals-for-return-of-preserved-heart-of-St-Laurence-OToole-141408593.html#ixzz1oGd2Zcc5

The heart of St Laurence O'Toole: http://media.irishcentral.com/images/419*558/020162-st-laurence-o-039-toole.jpg

Fuinseog

Benny_Cake wrote: »

You only have to go to Google News to see that there has been a lot of coverage - the director of communications at Christchurch said that there has been a massive amount of publicity. Not sure how this one can be pinned on Enda!

he fanned the flames of anti catholicism. when the Taoiseach, the leader of our country, is apparently so hate filled against the church it might inspire others to take a swipe at the main religion of this island.
the likes of this would not happen in a catholic country.

Fuinseog

qrrgprgua wrote: »

On bus happened to hear 2 guys talking about the Relic of St. Lawrence O'Toole. One guy was saying that technically it was not stealing since the Relic did not belong to the Church of Ireland, St. Lawrence was a Catholic Bishop, not a protestant. The Cathedral was seized from the Catholic Church and never returned. Interesting... I won't if some over zealous Catholic stole it?

Has the COI ever considered returning the Cathedral to its original owners?

personally I am glad that it is in protestant hands. if the two old cathedrals were given back, people would argue that we do not need two and make a cinema or bar out of one, like The church at the end of Henry Street.
If they had been given back in the sixties they would have surely been 'modernised' with the old interior removed.

Fuinseog

Doc Farrell wrote: »

Very strange and disappointing behaviour. I was at a mass in the inner city tonight and twice the priest, a quiet man, asked that adults at the back to stop talking/ arguing. The incident happened during the celebration of the Eucharist, which made it even weirder. As this was early evening in the inner city there could be any number of reasons for this kind of behaviour but it was strange to witness that absence of basic self awareness in Irish adults.

Here's a quick bio of St Lawrence O'Toole. Those interested in history or the movie Becket, who lived at the same time, might find it of interest.

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~frduffy/re/school/larry.html

people should go to mass because they want to be there, not because they feel compelled. I remember in the eighties it was not considered manly to sit with your family, but a man would stand at the back and chat away, even if there were seats available.

Cossax

Fuinseog wrote: »

he fanned the flames of anti catholicism. when the Taoiseach, the leader of our country, is apparently so hate filled against the church it might inspire others to take a swipe at the main religion of this island.
the likes of this would not happen in a catholic country.

What, a religious fanatic wouldn't steal a relic from a CoI facility in a Catholic country?

LordSutch

The relic was in the Cathedral for some 800 years, long before the Reformation, so any talk of which Christian denomination the relic belongs to is neither here nor there, it is (was) a priceless relic stored in a Christian Church in Dublin, and its missing.

qrrgprgua

LordSutch wrote: »

The relic was in the Cathedral for some 800 years, long before the Reformation, so any talk of which Christian denomination the relic belongs to is neither here nor there, it is (was) a priceless relic stored in a Christian Church in Dublin, and its missing.

The Relic is of a Catholic Bishop who is a Saint. It was kept in a Cathedral that was stolen or robbed from the Catholics of Ireland. Its very much a Catholic Relic of a Catholic saint.

No sure if the Protestant/Catholic debate was the cause of the robbery (I hope it is atleast the relic will be looked after ;-)... But if it was just a robbery for financial gain then sadly we might never see it again.

Surprising that the 2 largest Cathedrals in Dublin were are still under the possession of COI, would they not consider returning one of them to its rightful owners?

qrrgprgua

Fuinseog wrote: »

personally I am glad that it is in protestant hands. if the two old cathedrals were given back, people would argue that we do not need two and make a cinema or bar out of one, like The church at the end of Henry Street.
If they had been given back in the sixties they would have surely been 'modernised' with the old interior removed.

nonsense... neither would ever have been used for anything other than a place of worship it returned to the Catholic church.

Benny_Cake

qrrgprgua wrote: »

nonsense... neither would ever have been used for anything other than a place of worship it returned to the Catholic church.

Really? Last time I visited Christ Church it seemed that they were really making the hard sell to the tourists - not surprisingly, as maintaining two historic cathedrals just a few minutes walk from each other must be extremely expensive. It is likely that they would be a significant cost to the Catholic Church too, and in addition to the place of worship there would be the gift shop, and the stand selling tickets so you can visit the crypt. This may be why there has never been a demand from a bishop that they be returned, and may also be why the "rightful owners" haven't taken the Church of Ireland to court over it. It's sad when a criminal act like this has some Christians wanting to start up 16th century sectarian disputes again.

recedite

Benny_Cake wrote: »

That would be an ecumenical matter! I suppose since he was the first archbishop of Dublin, but the Catholic and COI archbishops could claim to be his successors.

No, a guy called Gregory was the first Archbishop of Dublin, and before him there were several Bishops of Dublin, all operating under the Archbishop of Canterbury.

LordSutch wrote: »

I'm surprised there is so little interest in this disgraceful theft.

Some of the comments on this thread indicate that many Catholics would see this theft as "liberating" a Catholic relic from a Protestant church which originally stole both the relic and the cathedral itself.

I think it is also fair to say that C of I members do not really "go in for" relics and saints much. Therefore they will not be too upset by the loss, at least not on a spiritual level anyway.

The combination of these two factors would seem to answer the question as to why nobody seems to be too upset.

Manach

This is theft pure and simple of a historical article that now and for any foreseeable future had its home in the CoI cathedral (I reckon at this stage Adverse Possession has long since come into play )

qrrgprgua

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Really? Last time I visited Christ Church it seemed that they were really making the hard sell to the tourists - not surprisingly, as maintaining two historic cathedrals just a few minutes walk from each other must be extremely expensive. It is likely that they would be a significant cost to the Catholic Church too, and in addition to the place of worship there would be the gift shop, and the stand selling tickets so you can visit the crypt. This may be why there has never been a demand from a bishop that they be returned, and may also be why the "rightful owners" haven't taken the Church of Ireland to court over it. It's sad when a criminal act like this has some Christians wanting to start up 16th century sectarian disputes again.

Catholic church has asked for one of the 2 cathedrals back.... Why do you think we have a pro cathedral??.?????


And not its not going to court.... It the CoI wants to get both.. Then so be it.

Catholic church has returned many stolen relics to Orthodox church... Why? Because they were stolen from rightful owners..

Fuinseog

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Catholic church has asked for one of the 2 cathedrals back.... Why do you think we have a pro cathedral??.?????


And not its not going to court.... It the CoI wants to get both.. Then so be it.

Catholic church has returned many stolen relics to Orthodox church... Why? Because they were stolen from rightful owners..

give them Christ Church and see how long it is before they decide to 'modernise' it. the amount of Catholic churches that I know that have been continually tampered with and revamped. traditionally Cof I has had more respect for our heritage that ourselves. You would not get a prod destroying an ancient ringfort.

Peregrinus

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Catholic church has asked for one of the 2 cathedrals back....

I’m pretty sure this is not correct, actually. The Catholic church in Ireland has never been particularly concerned about “recovering” pre-reformation assets.

If the Catholic church has asked for one of the Dublin Cathedrals, can you say when and by whom the request was made, and to whom it was addressed, and what the response was?

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Why do you think we have a pro cathedral??.?????

Not for this reason. None of the Catholic dioceses in Ireland now have their pre-Reformation cathedrals. The CofI has them most of them (even if some of them are no longer in use as cathedrals, or indeed as churches at all). A few - e.g. the Rock of Cashel - are in state ownership. If your logic holds good, then every Catholic diocese in Ireland should have a pro-cathedral, pending the “return” of the pre-reformation building or site. In fact only Dublin does.


It has nothing to do with the fact that the Marlborough St building is not the pre-Reformation cathedral. It reflects the fact that it was always intended as a temporary cathedral, to be replaced in time with a larger, grander, more dignified structure in a more prominent position. Until a suitable church is erected, the (twelfth-century) designation of Christ Church as the diocesan cathedral remains in place, and any other building used for the purpose is simply a pro-cathedral.

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Catholic church has returned many stolen relics to Orthodox church... Why? Because they were stolen from rightful owners..

The Catholic view - and not just the Catholic view - is that no-one can “own” human remains. The Catholic church has returned relics, and other religious treasures, to the sites and shrines with which they are associated, because that is where they ought to be.

The heart of St. Laurence O’Toole was brought to Christ Church Cathedral after his death because that was his Cathedral, when he was Archbishop of Dublin, and it was thought appropriate that his remains - or those of them that were returned to Ireland - should lie there. The Catholic church, and the Catholic tradition, no more favours the removal of the heart to another church than it would favour the exhumation and removal of the remains of other pre-reformation Archbishops of Dublin who are buried there.

LordSutch

I'm quite sure that the Roman Catholic Church is just as upset at the loss of this relic as the Dean of Christ Church is. We don't of course have quite the same tradition of keeping relics Anglican Churches, which makes it all the more sad that one of the few that we do has been stolen.

St Laurence O'Toole is the patron Saint of Dublin for all denominations.

Gardai are now following a lead (06th-March): http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0306/breaking61.html

I Heart Internet

qrrgprgua wrote: »

nonsense... neither would ever have been used for anything other than a place of worship it returned to the Catholic church.

The "modernisation" comment is certainly not nonsense....unless you decide to ignore 40 years of wreckovations.

On the mention of men wearing hats in churches. Saw a tourist a good few years ago, middle-aged man, wearing a large cowboy hat while looking around a church in Cork - as a daytime mass was being celebrated. Baffled me that a grown man with, presumably, the wit to book himself a holiday could not fathom that removing your hat in a place of worship was a good idea. I mean, most people tend to remove their hat once they step indoors anyway. It boggles the mind. To be fair, I don't really think he was being rude, but it made me wonder how commonly held (global) simple acts of respect can be lost.

Peregrinus

I Heart Internet wrote: »

. . . I mean, most people tend to remove their hat once they step indoors anyway. It boggles the mind. To be fair, I don't really think he was being rude, but it made me wonder how commonly held (global) simple acts of respect can be lost.

Not that global. If he was Jewish, for example, uncovering his head in this context would be a mark of disrespect.

prinz

I Heart Internet wrote: »

To be fair, I don't really think he was being rude, but it made me wonder how commonly held (global) simple acts of respect can be lost.

Don't talk about it :pac: I was in the Uspenski Orthodox Cathedral in Helsinki a few months back and it was all very respectful, some people praying, some tourists quietly admiring the art work, icons and decorative ceiling etc.

All of a sudden a tour group comes in and the noise level went through the roof. The lack of respect for the place and the people in their was mind boggling. People were chatting away loud as could be, flash photography all over the place despite signs everywhere instructing people not to use flash, shouting across the church, stepping over the rope barriers to walk up and around the altar, posing in front of icons etc. My wife was telling me there was a group of 3 or 4 Asians posing with their arms around the body of Jesus on a crucifix, smiling, thumbs up, and pretending to lick various parts of it for photographs. Then they were gone again after turning the place into Disneyland for 10 mins.. there was a young lad there minding the place and he was trying his best to get them to quieten down but he was talking to the wall while they were there.

Pace2008

I'm not sure where people are getting off saying that it's not being covered enough. The major Irish papers have had pieces on it:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0306/breaking61.html
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/thieves-steal-preserved-heart-of-st-laurence-otoole-3038952.html
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/church-perplexed-by-theft-of-patron-saints-heart-186013.html
http://www.herald.ie/news/religious-fanatic-stole-heart-of-dublins-patron-saint-3039683.html

and there was a feature on the six one news the day it went missing. I can understand how Christians may be upset about its disappearance, and I'd like to see it returned myself, but it's not exactly the Mona Lisa. I 'd say two weeks ago 9 out 0f 10 Irish people couldn't have told you what the relic of St. Lawrence was nor where it was in residence. I think it's received the level of coverage its fame warrants.

Doc Farrell

prinz wrote: »

Don't talk about it :pac: I was in the Uspenski Orthodox Cathedral in Helsinki a few months back and it was all very respectful, some people praying, some tourists quietly admiring the art work, icons and decorative ceiling etc.

All of a sudden a tour group comes in and the noise level went through the roof. The lack of respect for the place and the people in their was mind boggling. People were chatting away loud as could be, flash photography all over the place despite signs everywhere instructing people not to use flash, shouting across the church, stepping over the rope barriers to walk up and around the altar, posing in front of icons etc. My wife was telling me there was a group of 3 or 4 Asians posing with their arms around the body of Jesus on a crucifix, smiling, thumbs up, and pretending to lick various parts of it for photographs. Then they were gone again after turning the place into Disneyland for 10 mins.. there was a young lad there minding the place and he was trying his best to get them to quieten down but he was talking to the wall while they were there.

Its difficult to find a balance alright, many Cathedrals rely on tourist money to pay for their astronomical maintenance bills, yet many visitors, particularly younger ones, are uncomfortable with sacred spaces and will rebel. I think a stricter door policy is necessary unfortunately but nobody wants to be seen as the bad guy.