Adding weight to MIDI drums...

stephen22

Hey guys,

Myself and my band are planning to record an EP by ourselves in our home 'studio'. We've a fair amount of experience in studios and recording demos ourselves but we've decided that for this project we're going to do everything ourselves. We recently lost our drummer so we've decided to stay together as a 3 piece and get recording while we have the creative spark.


So that essentially means MIDI drums. Our budget is essentially non existant but we wouldn't mind spending a few bob on a decent programme if it sounds great! The drum sound we're looking for is tight and punchy like on Paramores RIOT album (not everyones cup of tea I know but thats the sound we're after).

Currently we're just using Xpand and Kontact for plugins simply because theyre the only plugins we have with drums. I know that a portion of MIDI drums sounding decent is playing them like a drummer would but is there anything that would add the extra depth and prescence that a real kit has? Or any free or pay plugins which would help in getting a great drum sound?

Anything we've done so far sounds OK but not GREAT, especially the cymbals - very washy.

stephen22

Also, as I'm typing this I get the idea of recording everything and doing the drums as we have them - then booking a day or two in a studio to mix and transferring the drums to any drum plugins they have?

Never been in a situation without a drummer and using MIDI so I don't even know if thats a common thing for studios to do?

slavedave

I guess a few factors greatly influence the quality of your drum tracks:
i. Programming - you can get aftermarket midi files from Groove Monkey and elsewhere if the included files with your drum vst don't cut it ( or you don't want to programme yourself).
ii. Sounds - I have owned Ezdrummer (with ezx expansions), Superior 2, Sonic Reality's Ulitmate Studio Kits for Kontakt (great sounds but bad implimentation), Battery 2, BFD Eco (currently on offer at €29 still, I think) and Addictive Drums. Superior is an excellent product but I currently have kept AD with all the Adpaks on my drive - processed but flexible and easy to tweak. So much personal preferences are linked with a specific VST. All have their place (as do Steven Slate kits for example - demo the lot to see what fits the bill pre-committing to a product).
iii. Post processing with effects - how you create "your" sound with compression, side chaining, distortion etc. But you already know this from your recording experience.
iv. Mixing - how your kits sit in the overall mix.

That's a lot of variables - each having a broad spectrum of choice at present. May be quicker to rent-a-drummer!:D

stephen22

slavedave wrote: »

I guess a few factors greatly influence the quality of your drum tracks:
i. Programming - you can get aftermarket midi files from Groove Monkey and elsewhere if the included files with your drum vst don't cut it ( or you don't want to programme yourself).
ii. Sounds - I have owned Ezdrummer (with ezx expansions), Superior 2, Sonic Reality's Ulitmate Studio Kits for Kontakt (great sounds but bad implimentation), Battery 2, BFD Eco (currently on offer at €29 still, I think) and Addictive Drums. Superior is an excellent product but I currently have kept AD with all the Adpaks on my drive - processed but flexible and easy to tweak. So much personal preferences are linked with a specific VST. All have their place (as do Steven Slate kits for example - demo the lot to see what fits the bill pre-committing to a product).
iii. Post processing with effects - how you create "your" sound with compression, side chaining, distortion etc. But you already know this from your recording experience.
iv. Mixing - how your kits sit in the overall mix.

That's a lot of variables - each having a broad spectrum of choice at present. May be quicker to rent-a-drummer!:D

Rent a drummer was something we were considering but we want the satisfaction of doing everything ourselves if possible!

Would you recommend tracking everything and then mixing are getting the drums sounding real as possible first? We've only finished the first drum track so dont want to end up with something unusable at the end of it so looking for as much help as possible!

krd

I don't know.

I was listening to Bruce Springsteens dancing in the dark the other night - the drums are just a relentless Linn Drum machine......the live versions are bombastic... but the studio version is just a bang on the button Linn - no frills.


Make your own drum tracks and play along to them in rehearsal.


There's alway Rob can't remember his surname - sorry I'm in the middle of a Wednesday cocktail hour . He runs a studio and he's a really great drummer.

slavedave

There is also a guy in the states that will lay down a track for you if you send him your mix with a click /base guide rhythm track. He has good feedback - if I can find him I will post here but there may well be guys here that will do it over the web for you.
Don't forget live drum loops too - there are some great resources out there eg http://www.drumsondemand.com/drumtracks
You cut/paste loops into your track as and when you want to - lots of variations per rhythm, fills, intros, outtros etc. May be useful.

SeanHurley

Steven Slate Drums includes a kit that models the Paramore Riot sound.

http://www.stevenslatedrums.com/

You can hear a demo of it in the full mix player (song 8).

stephen22

Thanks for ye suggestions guys! Keep em coming!

I'll check Steven Slate out now!

I don't want to use drum loops but programme them myself! Have specific rhythms in mind that we want played so that rules out premade samples.

Is it all down to the samples you use or is it about how they're mixed? Would you recommend layering up samples different snare sounds together etc?

i57dwun4yb1pt8

SD 2 will get you that sound easily ,
new york studio pack or the nashville pack i think .

i use them all the time , but play them on a roland td 20 , so it's my playing .

but you can edit the stock midi tracks easy- if you wish to use them .

i used to record the hats and ride live ( real ones ) but im recording ALL the cymbals live now , as i feel the cymbal samples are good , but just missing that final percent of realism .

that and i prefer my cymbals to those with the SD kits - its a drummer thing

so i use SD2 pack for the shells , rooms and overheads (without cymbals )these days

i add an artifical room and or reverb later to blend in the cymbals , basically simulate the sd 2 rooms using reverbs and eq

you will need a lot of comppresion tricks to get that sound in any case .

note that you can layer drums , but its also good to try send each drum to sep compressor and eq the return to make a new sound and blend it in on each drum .

stephen22

DaDumTish wrote: »

SD 2 will get you that sound easily ,
new york studio pack or the nashville pack i think .

i use them all the time , but play them on a roland td 20 , so it's my playing .

but you can edit the stock midi tracks easy- if you wish to use them .

i used to record the hats and ride live ( real ones ) but im recording ALL the cymbals live now , as i feel the cymbal samples are good , but just missing that final percent of realism .

that and i prefer my cymbals to those with the SD kits - its a drummer thing

so i use SD2 pack for the shells , rooms and overheads (without cymbals )these days

i add an artifical room and or reverb later to blend in the cymbals , basically simulate the sd 2 rooms using reverbs and eq

you will need a lot of comppresion tricks to get that sound in any case .

note that you can layer drums , but its also good to try send each drum to sep compressor and eq the return to make a new sound and blend it in on each drum .

Thanks man! We were thinking of doing the same with cymbals etc ourself - samples won't cut it!

Got them sounding pretty good, changed plugin so I'll post a clip later tonight - opinions would be great!

maccored

i know these cost money (a few hundred euro in Argos), but a yamaha DD55 or DD65 are great wee things for recording drums with ... even if only to a click for proper drums later. You can use it as a midi controller so its a nice natural way for a drummer to record midi.

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/drums/drums_digital_percussion/portable_digital_drums/dd_series/dd-55/?mode=model

danabrism

I like Ezdrummer for its simplicity - Battery requires a lot more work. I also sometimes use Reason Drum Kits via rewire, which is actually quite good - easy to use, but you can control the mic mix to suit your track.

But probably the best bet would be to do a blend of MIDI and recording - even adding in a bit of live cymbal playing over the top can greatly enhance the vibe...