stove chimney blocked with soot

mossy2390

just wondering if anyone here has any ideas what might be casing a massive buildup of soot or Creosote from our stove.
its a 6kw Stanley osin with a 4" chimney coming out the top and then going trough the wall.
we have had it since christmas 2010 with no problems, got it cleaned in december and there was about a half inch build up around the chimney, which sounds pretty normal seeing as it was probably about five months build up.
around a month after it was cleaned it wouldnt heat up at all and there was very little air flow. we opened the cover to find it pretty much completely blocked, there was only around a half-full inch of space actually left clear in the middle.

cleaned it out fully again, another month later and there was the same problem not as bad there was probably about a inch diameter of space left.

all we burn is a small bit of turf to start it and then just coal, no wood or peat.
the last batch of coal we got did look pretty damp and seems to have damp coal dust stuck to it. im guessing its this brand of coal that's the problem.

anyone have any ideas what could be causing it or how to prevent the build up, dont fancy having to clean the thing every month!

Stove Fan

mossy2390 wrote: »

just wondering if anyone here has any ideas what might be casing a massive buildup of soot or Creosote from our stove.
its a 6kw Stanley osin with a 4" chimney coming out the top and then going trough the wall.
we have had it since christmas 2010 with no problems, got it cleaned in december and there was about a half inch build up around the chimney, which sounds pretty normal seeing as it was probably about five months build up.
around a month after it was cleaned it wouldnt heat up at all and there was very little air flow. we opened the cover to find it pretty much completely blocked, there was only around a half-full inch of space actually left clear in the middle.

cleaned it out fully again, another month later and there was the same problem not as bad there was probably about a inch diameter of space left.

all we burn is a small bit of turf to start it and then just coal, no wood or peat.
the last batch of coal we got did look pretty damp and seems to have damp coal dust stuck to it. im guessing its this brand of coal that's the problem.

anyone have any ideas what could be causing it or how to prevent the build up, dont fancy having to clean the thing every month!

My god that is bad:eek:

It looks very damp does the soot!! Could you describe your flue installation?

Does it rise from the stove top to a 45 degree bend? Then angled through the wall to a flue rising up the wall.

I take it that this may be a new external chimney? If this is the case all pipes through wall and externally should be twinwall insulated flue pipe. You can tell this if the external diameter is around 150mm (6in)

I'm wondering if the wet fuel and possible uninsulated chimney is causing this.

Some pictures of the chimney would help:)


Stove Fan:)

mossy2390

Stove Fan wrote: »

My god that is bad:eek:

It looks very damp does the soot!! Could you describe your flue installation?

Does it rise from the stove top to a 45 degree bend? Then angled through the wall to a flue rising up the wall.

I take it that this may be a new external chimney? If this is the case all pipes through wall and externally should be twinwall insulated flue pipe. You can tell this if the external diameter is around 150mm (6in)

I'm wondering if the wet fuel and possible uninsulated chimney is causing this.

Some pictures of the chimney would help:)


Stove Fan:)

yes the flue from the top of the stove is uninsulated, this goes up a meter and then connects at 45 degrees to a meter long insulated section that goes trough the wall, theres another meter insulated that goes up at 45 degrees again that has a flat cover over it.

i dont have a outside picture, too dark to take one, i can upload one tomorrow if you want


also another thing you might know about the stainless steel cover plate in the flue and on the start of the insulated flue discoloured, that happened a few months ago the parents were using the stove and probably had it stacked high there was a awful kinda plastic like burning smell and the steel has been discolored ever since, ever seen this before?

draward

mossy2390 wrote: »

just wondering if anyone here has any ideas what might be casing a massive buildup of soot or Creosote from our stove.
its a 6kw Stanley osin with a 4" chimney coming out the top and then going trough the wall.
we have had it since christmas 2010 with no problems, got it cleaned in december and there was about a half inch build up around the chimney, which sounds pretty normal seeing as it was probably about five months build up.
around a month after it was cleaned it wouldnt heat up at all and there was very little air flow. we opened the cover to find it pretty much completely blocked, there was only around a half-full inch of space actually left clear in the middle.

cleaned it out fully again, another month later and there was the same problem not as bad there was probably about a inch diameter of space left.

all we burn is a small bit of turf to start it and then just coal, no wood or peat.
the last batch of coal we got did look pretty damp and seems to have damp coal dust stuck to it. im guessing its this brand of coal that's the problem.

anyone have any ideas what could be causing it or how to prevent the build up, dont fancy having to clean the thing every month!

Did you get the chimney cleaned or just the stove.

mossy2390

draward wrote: »

Did you get the chimney cleaned or just the stove.

chimney and stove, got someone in to do it the first time, then we just bought our own brush and cleaned it ourselves the next two times

Stove Fan

Hi, I can't see anything obviously wrong from the photos. The flue pipe detailing isn't very neat. The 45 degree bend may of been fitted the wrong way round, but hard to tell from the photo. This wouldn't be the cause of the excessive soot though. You can check this yourself, basically the bottom part of the elbow should fit inside the lower pipe and not outside.

If as you say the outside is twinwall insulated flue then that seems fine. A picture would help.

All I can think is poor fuel. Ie too wet, this could apply to the turf as well.
This can happen when the stove is closed up and just slumbering as its burning inefficiently and leats to soot build up.

Try to have a good lively fire going at times everyday, this will reduce the soot. Burning well is when it's at it's most efficient.
I wouldn't run the stove slumbering overnight as it causes chimney soot as the chimney gets colder and so more soot/ condensation.

Sweep the flue as often as it needs:) Buy a carbon monoxide detector if you haven't already got one:)

Stove Fan:)

demanufactured

What coal are you burning??

heinbloed

The OP's pictures show a reducer being installed between stove pipe and flue liner.
This is a case for the health and safety inspector, the local fire brigade might want to have a look at this as well: how not to do it ....

The soot box seems to be totally missing.

its a 6kw Stanley osin with a 4" chimney coming out the top

The Oisin 6 kW stove is an OIL-stove. Not suitable for solid fuels, see

http://www.waterfordstanley.com/SiteImages/Site_131/PDF/OilStovesManual.pdf


There is an Oisin 6.5 kW stove but this isn't suitable for turf fuel, see

http://www.waterfordstanley.com/SiteImages/Site_131/PDF/OisinSF.pdf

(note the soot box on picture 1 !)


The minimum clearance to combustable materials (curtains move) isn't kept.....

If you want to kill your people there are more decent methods, the house wouldn't have to be burned down.

Who installed this stove b.t.w.?

also another thing you might know about the stainless steel cover plate in the flue and on the start of the insulated flue discoloured, that happened a few months ago the parents were using the stove and probably had it stacked high there was a awful kinda plastic like burning smell and the steel has been discolored ever since, ever seen this before?

An oxidised stainless steel stove pipe signs that the minimum temperature for the flue gas was reached.
Not seing a stainless steel stove pipe discoloured could mean two things: either the stove was never used or it was never used safely.
Stainless steel stove pipes are a gimmick for the floor shop, they atract women and interior designers. Proper stove pipes are made from black steel. They turn black anyhow. If used.....

Stove Fan

heinbloed wrote: »

The OP's pictures show a reducer being installed between stove pipe and flue liner.
This is a case for the health and safety inspector, the local fire brigade might want to have a look at this as well: how not to do it ....

The soot box seems to be totally missing.



The Oisin 6 kW stove is an OIL-stove. Not suitable for solid fuels, see

http://www.waterfordstanley.com/SiteImages/Site_131/PDF/OilStovesManual.pdf


There is an Oisin 6.5 kW stove but this isn't suitable for turf fuel, see

http://www.waterfordstanley.com/SiteImages/Site_131/PDF/OisinSF.pdf

(note the soot box on picture 1 !)


The minimum clearance to combustable materials (curtains move) isn't kept.....

If you want to kill your people there are more decent methods, the house wouldn't have to be burned down.

Who installed this stove b.t.w.?





An oxidised stainless steel stove pipe signs that the minimum temperature for the flue gas was reached.
Not seing a stainless steel stove pipe discoloured could mean two things: either the stove was never used or it was never used safely.
Stainless steel stove pipes are a gimmick for the floor shop, they atract women and interior designers. Proper stove pipes are made from black steel. They turn black anyhow. If used.....

Hi:) I think you will find they do a solid fuel version as well. The reducer isnt actually a reducer its actually a 4 inch flue to 4 inch internal twinwall. The extra thickness is the insulation of the twinwall. There is no soot box, this is only fitted to oil/gas/solid fuel ranges. This was a 45 degree elbow with soot door.

The stainless flues do discolour with the heat, colours of the rainbow. but a enamel metal is best, looks neater.

Stove Fan:)

heinbloed

A soot box has to be installed with every combustion device producing soot and ash.
Otherwise there is a serious risk of getting killed, see the OP's picture in the first post.

The absence of an Irish legislation concerning safe stoves is concerning.


Stanley shows clearly a soot box installed with their solid fuel Oisin stove, see page 4 picture 1:

http://www.waterfordstanley.com/SiteImages/Site_131/PDF/OisinSF.pdf

And they show an access point to the soot box as well, in an awkward position for regular checking but clearly visible on the picture linked above.

Enameled flue pipes are short lived, the uneven distribution and quickly changing temperatures would soon blast the glazing. And these particles are razor sharp.
Black steel is the standard material for solid fuel stove pipes. Since centuries, tried and tested by generations of stove owners.


PS

The soot box is the T-junction with a lid at the bottom, seen on the picture.

mossy2390

just because its in the picture on the booklet dose not mean it mush have a soot box, ive seen plenty of stoves without any.

we went to two suppliers and installers neither said anything about a soot box and they gave us the parts needed for out instillation.

the flue is not being reduced it is a 4" flue the whole way but because the flue goes trough the wall it needs to be a insulated section otherwise it would crack the wall. if you had read any of the above posts you would know this.

Also the booklet says:
RECOMMENDED FUELS
Bituminous coal, Anthracite, smokeless fuels, peat
briquettes and seasoned wood.
so yes it can burn turf!

also its not the oil model as you can see from the picture i originally posted it looks completely different to the oil one.

also the reference to the stainless steel is on the twin will insulated flue section, i assume its stainless, perhaps aluminum. this is the standard material that the insulated sections are made of.

thanks for your help stove fan, your the only one being helpful and not wasting my time

Stove Fan

mossy2390 wrote: »

just because its in the picture on the booklet dose not mean it mush have a soot box, ive seen plenty of stoves without any.

we went to two suppliers and installers neither said anything about a soot box and they gave us the parts needed for out instillation.

the flue is not being reduced it is a 4" flue the whole way but because the flue goes trough the wall it needs to be a insulated section otherwise it would crack the wall. if you had read any of the above posts you would know this.

Also the booklet says:
RECOMMENDED FUELS
Bituminous coal, Anthracite, smokeless fuels, peat
briquettes and seasoned wood.
so yes it can burn turf!

also its not the oil model as you can see from the picture i originally posted it looks completely different to the oil one.

also the reference to the stainless steel is on the twin will insulated flue section, i assume its stainless, perhaps aluminum. this is the standard material that the insulated sections are made of.

thanks for your help stove fan, your the only one being helpful and not wasting my time

Hi, no problem. Your installation looks fine as stated in my first post:) A T piece (for sweeping) what Heinbloed is on about isn't needed on a lot of installations. so long as the flue can be swept and is installed to manufacturers and building regs then it's fine. Yours having the 45 degree bend with soot door for sweeping is fine.



Stove Fan:)

TopTec

heinbloed wrote: »

The absence of an Irish legislation concerning safe stoves is concerning.

Heinbloed, you lost me. Are you saying that there are or are not stove fitting regulations?

TT

heinbloed

The OP links in his first post a picture showing a badly clogged stove pipe.

This is - no doubt about it - a very dangerous installation.

The slightest bit of movement within the stove pipe or the flue liner and an extra piece of soot will fall down and close the remaining opening.

To avoid such a situation ( falling debris from the chimney/flu liner) becoming deadly a direct falling connection between chimney and stove is simply illegal.

The correct installation would allow for some debris falling down and not blocking the stove pipe. Since - in a correct installation- the debris would fall into the soot box. Where it belongs.
As it is show in the installation manual.

Stove Fan calls it a sweeping hole. Well, that's wrong. It's primary function is to catch debris falling down.

The OP made it, survived by chance and good luck.

The installer should be brought to the courts.

The 37.5 degree bend (with the inspection opening) is smaller at the outlet towards the chimney than at the inlet. This is called a reduction, an illegal installation.
Not only is the diameter of the stove pipe reduced but this is happening at a bend - where the natural draw is reduced anyhow.

The installer has installed a 5 inch stove pipe to the stove, interrupted by a reducing bend and that joined to an ongoing (wider) flu liner.
An absolute illegal installation.

All soot and ash which gets from the stove into the stove pipe - so the rule - should be drawn up by the natural draw. And within the chimney - where the natural draw is being reduced to temperature changes and diameter changes - it should be deposited.
And fall down into the soot box.
This is basic knowledge, thanks Stove Fan for highlighting this.

Desaster has struck already, the stove pipe nearly blocked whilest the fire lit. Still, no one has died.

Remember: soot boxes save lifes. By avoiding stove pipes being blocked with falling soot/ash.

There is plenty of ash and soot within a flexible flu liner, bucket wise.
A bit of vibration, a slight down blow and it comes down. Following it's guided path, the law of gravity.

Invite the local fire safety inspector to have a look.

The installer obvious gave a damn.

B.t.w.: turf as fuel is not the same as peat briquettes. Like saw dust or wood shavings isn't the same as timber logs. The flame pictures (the actual burning properties) are fundamentally different.

Read the manual. No turf, no shavings, no straw, no coal dust etc..

Where we can find as well on page 15 (http://www.waterfordstanley.com/SiteImages/Site_131/PDF/OisinSF.pdf):

2. Appliance should be connected to a minimum of 1.8 metres (6 feet) of 125mm (5”)
flue pipe with a horizontal run not exceeding 150mm (6”).

Obviously the installer didn't read the manual, had little or no understanding of the laws of gravity, no meassuring tape for length and diameter etc...

The pictures shown by the OP show a flue pipe with a guessed maximum length of around 1.2 meters.

The installation as shown and described by the OP follows in no way the installation manual of the manufacturer.

One wonders why these things are printed, wasting time .....

heinbloed

TopTec asks:

Heinbloed, you lost me. Are you saying that there are or are not stove fitting regulations?

No. I'm saying:

The absence of an Irish legislation concerning safe stoves is concerning.

A stove fitter on the EU continent has to be trained for 3 years incl. vocational school and examen.
A stove fitter on the continent is allowed to fit a stove. The safety inspection after fitting the stove has to be done in many EU countries by a chimney sweep. Who has to be trained for 3 years incl. vocational school.


So there are at least 2 'safety inspectors' involved.

Here in Ireland a stove fitter wouldn't have to pass a literacy examen. Would not have to be registered with any trade organisation whatsoever. Ireland and the UK are unique in this case.

tomthumbe

heinbloed wrote: »

The OP links in his first post a picture showing a badly clogged stove pipe.

This is - no doubt about it - a very dangerous installation.

The slightest bit of movement within the stove pipe or the flue liner and an extra piece of soot will fall down and close the remaining opening.

To avoid such a situation ( falling debris from the chimney/flu liner) becoming deadly a direct falling connection between chimney and stove is simply illegal.

The correct installation would allow for some debris falling down and not blocking the stove pipe. Since - in a correct installation- the debris would fall into the soot box. Where it belongs.
As it is show in the installation manual.

Stove Fan calls it a sweeping hole. Well, that's wrong. It's primary function is to catch debris falling down.

The OP made it, survived by chance and good luck.

The installer should be brought to the courts.

The 37.5 degree bend (with the inspection opening) is smaller at the outlet towards the chimney than at the inlet. This is called a reduction, an illegal installation.
Not only is the diameter of the stove pipe reduced but this is happening at a bend - where the natural draw is reduced anyhow.

The installer has installed a 5 inch stove pipe to the stove, interrupted by a reducing bend and that joined to an ongoing (wider) flu liner.
An absolute illegal installation.

All soot and ash which gets from the stove into the stove pipe - so the rule - should be drawn up by the natural draw. And within the chimney - where the natural draw is being reduced to temperature changes and diameter changes - it should be deposited.
And fall down into the soot box.
This is basic knowledge, thanks Stove Fan for highlighting this.

Desaster has struck already, the stove pipe nearly blocked whilest the fire lit. Still, no one has died.

Remember: soot boxes save lifes. By avoiding stove pipes being blocked with falling soot/ash.

There is plenty of ash and soot within a flexible flu liner, bucket wise.
A bit of vibration, a slight down blow and it comes down. Following it's guided path, the law of gravity.

Invite the local fire safety inspector to have a look.

The installer obvious gave a damn.

B.t.w.: turf as fuel is not the same as peat briquettes. Like saw dust or wood shavings isn't the same as timber logs. The flame pictures (the actual burning properties) are fundamentally different.

Read the manual. No turf, no shavings, no straw, no coal dust etc..

Where we can find as well on page 15 (http://www.waterfordstanley.com/SiteImages/Site_131/PDF/OisinSF.pdf):



Obviously the installer didn't read the manual, had little or no understanding of the laws of gravity, no meassuring tape for length and diameter etc...

The pictures shown by the OP show a flue pipe with a guessed maximum length of around 1.2 meters.

The installation as shown and described by the OP follows in no way the installation manual of the manufacturer.

One wonders why these things are printed, wasting time .....

I am not a plumber or a heating engineer or a stove installer, like yourself it seems, at least I know enough to keep my mouth shut. You seem to criticise every single person who posts advice and confuse anyone who is looking for advice. I would bet my house that you never even got your hands dirty.

Stove Fan

heinbloed wrote: »

The OP links in his first post a picture showing a badly clogged stove pipe.

This is - no doubt about it - a very dangerous installation.

The slightest bit of movement within the stove pipe or the flue liner and an extra piece of soot will fall down and close the remaining opening.
Because the soot had moisture in it, it stuck to the fluepipe.

To avoid such a situation ( falling debris from the chimney/flu liner) becoming deadly a direct falling connection between chimney and stove is simply illegal.
It is not illegal to have stovepipe connected directly to the stove, infact it's very normal!! The flue as shown by the original poster, if the soot was dry it would of just fell into the stove, creating no blockage:).

The correct installation would allow for some debris falling down and not blocking the stove pipe. Since - in a correct installation- the debris would fall into the soot box. Where it belongs.
As it is show in the installation manual.
Were talking of using the stoves top outlet and not rear outlet. If it was a rear outlet used then a way of sweeping would have to be provided either linking the rear flue directly to the clay liner or using the existing fire recess as a catchment area with access.

Stove Fan calls it a sweeping hole. Well, that's wrong. It's primary function is to catch debris falling down.
No I called it a T fitting with acess for sweeping. The other 45 degree bend has a soot door for sweeping the flue.

The OP made it, survived by chance and good luck.

Yes they did:) But purely down to damp fuel and dirty coal. The flue design allows sweeping access and any dry soot will simply fall into the stove.

The installer should be brought to the courts.

He would win. He has used 45 degree bends and twinwall insulated flue.

The 37.5 degree bend (with the inspection opening) is smaller at the outlet towards the chimney than at the inlet. This is called a reduction, an illegal installation.

No the bend is the same diameter and is a normal way to connect the single walled pipe to the twinwall insulated pipe through the wall..
Not only is the diameter of the stove pipe reduced but this is happening at a bend - where the natural draw is reduced anyhow.


The installer has installed a 5 inch stove pipe to the stove, interrupted by a reducing bend and that joined to an ongoing (wider) flu liner.
An absolute illegal installation. No liner has been used.
No reducing bend has been used. The 5 inch single walled flue joins a 5 inch internal twinwall insulated pipe. The part shown thats wider is the outside diameter of the twinwall insulated pipe.

All soot and ash which gets from the stove into the stove pipe - so the rule - should be drawn up by the natural draw. And within the chimney - where the natural draw is being reduced to temperature changes and diameter changes - it should be deposited.
And fall down into the soot box.
This is basic knowledge, thanks Stove Fan for highlighting this.
So long as the flue is designed so that there is no horizontal flues of more than 6in or 90 degree bends where soot could gather/block and the flue can be easily swept then the installation is fine.
If using the vertical flue then any soot simply falls into the stove.

Desaster has struck already, the stove pipe nearly blocked whilest the fire lit. Still, no one has died.

Remember: soot boxes save lifes. By avoiding stove pipes being blocked with falling soot/ash.

There is plenty of ash and soot within a flexible flu liner, bucket wise.
A bit of vibration, a slight down blow and it comes down. Following it's guided path, the law of gravity.
In this persons case the soot should of simply fallen into the stove.

Invite the local fire safety inspector to have a look.

The installer obvious gave a damn.

B.t.w.: turf as fuel is not the same as peat briquettes. Like saw dust or wood shavings isn't the same as timber logs. The flame pictures (the actual burning properties) are fundamentally different.

Read the manual. No turf, no shavings, no straw, no coal dust etc..
The manual quite clearly states that turf can be burnt. I would be happy to burn the other fuels so long as they are very dry. You can buy Straw bale burners. http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,586.0.html

Where we can find as well on page 15 (http://www.waterfordstanley.com/SiteImages/Site_131/PDF/OisinSF.pdf):



Obviously the installer didn't read the manual, had little or no understanding of the laws of gravity, no meassuring tape for length and diameter etc...

The pictures shown by the OP show a flue pipe with a guessed maximum length of around 1.2 meters.

This is fine in this situation as otherwise the installer would be using single walled uninsulated flue through the wall and outside.

The installation as shown and described by the OP follows in no way the installation manual of the manufacturer.

One wonders why these things are printed, wasting time .....

You have to have the stove/flue installed by a HETAS registered installer or pay a building inspector from the Council to have the stove installation signed off in the UK now for the last few years.
Anyway surely this is the end of this post? If mossy2390 is happy with the advice given to check that the fuel is very dry and not to slumber burn and to sweep the flue regularly and is happy to have this thread locked.

Can we have this thread locked?

Stove Fan:)

heinbloed

Stove Fan wrote:

The slightest bit of movement within the stove pipe or the flue liner and an extra piece of soot will fall down and close the remaining opening.
Because the soot had moisture in it, it stuck to the fluepipe.

There is no solid fuel in this world which contains no moisture.

Water will be present in every downfall of a chimney. Rain, sleet and snow make their way straight down.
As long as there is no soot box installed and the chimney and the stove pipe are installed as 1 ongoing unit the water (and the creosote) will be reaching the stove pipe.

Such an installation is illegal.

The manufacturer clearly demands a T-junction installed where stove pipe meets chimney/flu liner.
A T-junction. Not a bend.
An expensive T-junction. Not the cheap cowboy bend.
AT-junction with a lid for regular inspection and cleaning.
A so called soot box that is.

(See Fig.1)

it says in the ignored manual of the manufacturer.

At all bends of any air transport duct the natural flow rate of smoke (upwards) and water and debris/ash and soot (downwards) is reduced. Therefore such a bend is at high risk being clogged up.
Bends are catchment zones for debris.

See the picture provided by the OP in his first posting in this thread.


A permanent inspection of such an installation is not possible. Since a sudden blockage during the firing resulting from falling debris can't be avoided. It can happen ANY time.
And cause death.

Don't forget that ash residues in the chimney can combine with water to a material called sinter, a cement like substance.
Sinter can fall-off (esp. from flex-liners) at all times, in large lumps.

Such installations where the rubbish from the chimney falls into the stove are simply illegal.
Since they pose a severe and acute risk to life and property.

---

The Stanley Oisin manual gives the recommended fuels.
Nowhere turf is mentioned in the manual. See page 8 "recommended fuels" at

http://www.waterfordstanley.com/SiteImages/Site_131/PDF/OisinSF.pdf

Quote:

Bituminous coal, Anthracite, smokeless fuels, peat
briquettes and seasoned wood. Do not use fuels
with a Petro-coke ingredient.

Do we have a literacy problem?

Turf (peat) is NOT a smokeless fuel since it contains plenty of water.

Shredded and compacted peat, turned into peat briquettes will have a maximum water content of around 10%. Not so the natural 'air-dried' turf.


Ignoring the manufacturer's fuel recommendations AND the installation manual (the soot box/T-junction!) is asking for trouble, is most dangerous.

Expecting the stove owner to climb up onto a chair or ladder equipped with a screw driver to inspect the stove pipe is ignorant to an extreme.

KoolKid

Enough!