Uk vs Ireland unemployment rate

liffeylite

Hi guys,

Quick question from a novice in these matters so please excuse my ignorance...

Broadly speaking, irelands unemployment rate is 14% and in the Uk it is 9%. Quite a hefty difference. However, if i understand correctly the irish rate includes people in part time employment as well as those fully unemployed. So in other words, the 14% is a figure for the percentage of people not in full time emloyment. In the Uk however, if you have a part time job you are not considered as unemployed, so these part time workers are exempt from the figures!


If this is true, surely the actual like for like figures are very similar between the 2 countries. I read recently that one uk thinktank said the actual number of unemployed in the Uk was 6 millon, not 2.7, although i forget their methadology.

wild heather

liffeylite wrote: »

Hi guys,

Quick question from a novice in these matters so please excuse my ignorance...

Broadly speaking, irelands unemployment rate is 14% and in the Uk it is 9%. Quite a hefty difference. However, if i understand correctly the irish rate includes people in part time employment as well as those fully unemployed. So in other words, the 14% is a figure for the percentage of people not in full time emloyment. In the Uk however, if you have a part time job you are not considered as unemployed, so these part time workers are exempt from the figures!


If this is true, surely the actual like for like figures are very similar between the 2 countries. I read recently that one uk thinktank said the actual number of unemployed in the Uk was 6 millon, not 2.7, although i forget their methadology.

you are correct it is very confusing. But here you, this is from the Labour Market Statistics office in the UK. There's quite a lot of reading though.

The employment rate for those aged from 16 to 64 was 70.3 per cent, up 0.1 on the quarter. There were 29.13 million people in employment aged 16 and over, up 60,000 on the quarter.

The unemployment rate was 8.4 per cent of the economically active population, up 0.1 on the quarter. There were 2.67 million unemployed people, up 48,000 on the quarter. The unemployment rate has not been higher since 1995. The inactivity rate for those aged from 16 to 64 was 23.1 per cent, down 0.2 on the quarter. There were 9.29 million economically inactive people aged from 16 to 64, down 78,000 on the quarter.

liffeylite

Thanks for the reply.

But my point is is that the 2.67million unemployed in the uk does not include part time workers. It refers to people that are of employment age, not in education and that dont have a part time job. So if you were to run the irish criteria over the unemployment stats, the percentage would increase from 8.4% as you would need to add all part time workers to the 2.67 million. Leaving you with an unemployment rate much higher.

It seems strange that when such importance is attached to these figures that they can be calcuted so differently!

Nijmegen

The live register can be confusing: It counts those part time, but only those working 3 or less days per week; and I believe it doesn't count hours, so you could be working less hours over more days and not be counted.

AFAIK students etc are not counted.

This can be said to be a partial measure of "Under Employment"

The really interesting statistic is the labour force participation rate.

The labour force consists of:

1. People in the workforce
2. (People in work)
3. (People unemployed)
4. People not in the workforce

You can be unemployed and not be counted as unemployed, and there are over 130,000 more people not in the labour force than in 2007. These could be people who were made unemployed but have given up on finding work, or can't claim benefits as they do not qualify (due to a spouse with income, mainly.)

If you leave for a program like JobBridge as far as I'm aware you are no longer counted as being unemployed.

I think that you ought to flip the statistics around: What's the employment rate, both as a percentage of the labour force and as a percentage of the total potential labour force?

syklops

Not for nothing, the basic level of dole in the UK is about 55GBP, versus 196 EUR in Ireland.

Now differences in VAT, duty and currency disparancies etc aside. 196 buys more in Ireland than 55 does in Britain.

Bannasidhe

syklops wrote: »

Not for nothing, the basic level of dole in the UK is about 55GBP, versus 196 EUR in Ireland.

Now differences in VAT, duty and currency disparancies etc aside. 196 buys more in Ireland than 55 does in Britain.

FYI the base rate in Ireland is 188 not 196.

liffeylite

Yes the difference between the uk dole and the irish one is vast. I dont understand why there is such a huge difference..

I see what you mean about the labour force stats. Its a complex issue. But usually governments like to positivley spin stats, and in the case of the uk we can see clearly that they do so. If you work less than 16 hours a week you are classified part time, but that still means you are employed. So by the uk meausure, all those people on the live register whom work 3 days a week, even if its only an hour a day, would be taken of the register and classified as employed!

So to compare the 14% rate in ireland to the 9% rate in the uk is essentially wrong as we are using different metrics.

One interesting point is that by the uk assesment, the unemployment rate in london is 10%. By the irish metric, the unemploment rate is dublin is also 10%.

So in affect, a higher percentage of dubliners are employed, beit part or full time, than londoners are employed in england!

So in theory the job market overal is weaker in london than in dublin.

Solair

There should be an EU standard way of measuring these. Otherwise, it's totally misleading and quite economically damaging, as it will just make speculators think that our economy's in a worse state than it might be.

I sincerely hope the Spanish figures are calculated in a non-massaging way as if they're really any higher than the quoted figure, it would be just terrifying.

They're officially 23% and expected to rise!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/19/spanish-protest-spending-cuts-labour

liffeylite

Completley agree! It should be standardised so that all are measured equally. The fact is you have a better chance of finding a job in dublin than you do in london. Yet the media would have us believe the total opposite and encourage emigration.

The fact that the west of ireland has double the unemployment rate of dublin isnt highlighted through the media either.

You are right about spain, i hope that isnt with the uk calculation!

Geuze

hERE ARE the latest Labour Force data from Ireland, on an ILO basis:

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/labourmarket/2011/qnhs_q32011.pdf


The standardised way of measuring unemployment is the ILO method.

Geuze

Here is the latest data from Eurostat:

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/3-01032012-AP/EN/3-01032012-AP-EN.PDF

with some more commentary here:

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Unemployment_statistics

Fratton Fred

liffeylite wrote: »

Yes the difference between the uk dole and the irish one is vast. I dont understand why there is such a huge difference..

I see what you mean about the labour force stats. Its a complex issue. But usually governments like to positivley spin stats, and in the case of the uk we can see clearly that they do so. If you work less than 16 hours a week you are classified part time, but that still means you are employed. So by the uk meausure, all those people on the live register whom work 3 days a week, even if its only an hour a day, would be taken of the register and classified as employed!

So to compare the 14% rate in ireland to the 9% rate in the uk is essentially wrong as we are using different metrics.

One interesting point is that by the uk assesment, the unemployment rate in london is 10%. By the irish metric, the unemploment rate is dublin is also 10%.

So in affect, a higher percentage of dubliners are employed, beit part or full time, than londoners are employed in england!

So in theory the job market overal is weaker in london than in dublin.

I'm currently looking for a job in both cities and there are a hell of a lot more in London than Dublin. They are (for me) better quality jobs as well.

liffeylite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm currently looking for a job in both cities and there are a hell of a lot more in London than Dublin. They are (for me) better quality jobs as well.

I would expect that though as london is bigger. So while it has more jobs, it has more candidates. As a percentage, across the whole of the market, london has a higher unemployment rate.

Geuze

The CSO released 2011 Q4 lab mkt data today.

302,000 unemployed, 14.3%.

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/labourmarket/2011/qnhs_q42011.pdf

UN rate in Dublin is 12.8%.

Skopzz

Who cares about Ireland's comparison to UK unemployment... We are separate countries.

syklops

Skopzz wrote: »

Who cares about Ireland's comparison to UK unemployment... We are separate countries.

If Ireland was some super power with 300 million people and oil fields the size of Mayo and Britain was some super power with 400 million people then this comment would have some merrit. But their not. So it doesn't.

Geuze

Skopzz wrote: »

Who cares about Ireland's comparison to UK unemployment... We are separate countries.

Loads of people care.

Unemployment rates are compared very often.

Skopzz

Look folks, Ireland cannot be compared to the UK, period. Ireland can be compared to the Euro Zone unemployment rate (or the average of such). Starting to compare us to the UK is inaccurate as much as comparing prices is inaccurate (separate monetary policies and different currencies).

LordSutch

Dunno if its even worth comparing our unemployment rate (small country, population 4 million people) with that of a massive country like the UK (population 65 million people). Maybe comparing our enemployment rate with that of a similar sized country in the Eurozone would be better.

gurramok

Geuze wrote: »

The CSO released 2011 Q4 lab mkt data today.

302,000 unemployed, 14.3%.

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/labourmarket/2011/qnhs_q42011.pdf

UN rate in Dublin is 12.8%.

A pity they don't give stats of the reasons why some unemployed have left unemployment. That is, employment, emigration or back to education on the numerous courses they are 'incentivised' to do. Ya know, fiddling the figures.

Nijmegen

gurramok wrote: »

A pity they don't give stats of the reasons why some unemployed have left unemployment. That is, employment, emigration or back to education on the numerous courses they are 'incentivised' to do. Ya know, fiddling the figures.

15,400 jobs lost in Q4, but only 3,000 additional people on the dole queue. The rest obviously got lost on their way to the social welfare office.

gurramok

Have a look at this at the source of the latest rise in employment. http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/labourmarket/2011/qnhs_q42011.pdf

Go to Annex A1, the rise in employment is largely attributed to immigrants while unemployment among Irish workers rose.
From Q4 2010 to Q42011, Irish nationals in employment decreased by 18.9 thousand with corresponding rise in unemployment of 6.5 thousand.
Non-Irish in employment increased by 3.5 thousand with corresponding decrease in unemployment of 3.5 thousand.

And look where the rise in foreigners has been - its across 7 categories of employment!

Govt policy suits for forced Irish emigration(less welfare paid) while we still import foreigners to fill alot of roles!??

Nijmegen

gurramok wrote: »

Govt policy suits for forced Irish emigration(less welfare paid) while we still import foreigners to fill alot of roles!??

A lot of FDI jobs aren't suitable for Irish workers. PayPal runs a multilingual sales and support centre in Ireland for its global operations. They import native speakers for the role.

Not that we'd rather not have the jobs. PayPal brings in a Russian speaker who pays rent, buys groceries, goes out here.

But the skills gap in Ireland is massive. Paddy the Plasterer can't do much about a programming job in Microsoft.