Advise on Starting Cafe in Dublin

dubfaction

Hi folks,

I've been wanting to set up my own Vegetarian Cafe-Wine Bar-Venue for many years and feel now is the time to do it. I have been working in Community and Education sectors for many years but also have much experience of music promotion from my interest/pastime in music.

I have a very strong idea of what I am looking to set up and am putting together a business plan at present. I have done a Start Your Own Business course and am linking in with a business mentor with Dublin Enterprise Board (due to meet on 7th March). My idea is for a small place (holding 50-80) that does good healthy food (take out also) during the day and has music-movies-events during the evening.

I would be grateful to anyone with concrete advice with regard to things like

1. Start up costs
2. Start up-issues
3. Market Research
4. Promotion/Advertising
5. Sourcing Equipment
6. Funding
7. Location

Thanks in advance!

MrMatisse

Hi Dubfaction,

Have a look around any restaurant in Dublin run by Joe Macken ( Crackbird, Bear etc)

Have a think whether your pricing/ product offering would appeal to the people who you see going in and out of those places as I reckon that would be your key demographic in terms of age, class etc ( Prob not eating habits though!)

mentor1

Hi D,
I have gone through a very long process of putting together a B / P on the basis of opening up a similar venue. I have my own building ( unencumbered by borrowings).I received full planning and then went to the bank. They loved the B / P , however they needed me to put in my own pound of flesh, which just at this time, is a bridge too far for me. They wont go all the way with funding for me even though I was handing over my deeds. I would be willing to discuss my experiences with you, should you wish to do so. It's interesting, the description of your backround, mine is quite similar. The very best of luck if we dont manage to get chatting !! rgds

edanto

The very best of luck to you, I'd hope to be able to frequent once you're open, sounds like a good spot. One question I'd have is whether or not you are firmly wedded to the 'vegetarian' element. I would suggest you might have a broader appeal if you went with 'healthy' instead of vegetarian, which is just a smaller pigeon hole.

It sounds like the kind of place that wants to attract groups of friends, and if even one person in the group is put off by vegetarian-only, you'd lose the group.

The very best of luck, and it would be great if you could keep the thread here updated.

bogwalrus

edanto wrote: »

The very best of luck to you, I'd hope to be able to frequent once you're open, sounds like a good spot. One question I'd have is whether or not you are firmly wedded to the 'vegetarian' element. I would suggest you might have a broader appeal if you went with 'healthy' instead of vegetarian, which is just a smaller pigeon hole.

It sounds like the kind of place that wants to attract groups of friends, and if even one person in the group is put off by vegetarian-only, you'd lose the group.

The very best of luck, and it would be great if you could keep the thread here updated.

I would have to agree with the Edanto and i'm a Veggie. Go with something that doesnt really stick you with vegetarianism. It will give people a reason not to go as it does give a reason to go. Go the healthy gourmet food or similar and you will appeal to a larger market.

Hanley

bogwalrus wrote: »

I would have to agree with the Edanto and i'm a Veggie. Go with something that doesnt really stick you with vegetarianism. It will give people a reason not to go as it does give a reason to go. Go the healthy gourmet food or similar and you will appeal to a larger market.

This.

antoinolachtnai

dubfaction wrote: »

1. Start up costs
2. Start up-issues
3. Market Research
4. Promotion/Advertising
5. Sourcing Equipment
6. Funding
7. Location

Thanks in advance!

1. Hundreds of thousands is what is going into openings these days. Rents and deposits can still be pretty high for a good site. Opening on a not so good site is very difficult indeed, though if you had the right marketing it might be possible.

2. Funding, positioning, planning, expertise. For takeaway there will be planning issues, I'd imagine in particular. You need really good people to keep the standard of food, if you are planning a food offer.

3. Traffic counts in Dublin, looking at similar concepts in Dublin and in other cities. If you plan to do something new on the food front, you really need to research how that sits with people.

4. It's a matter of how you spend your money? A great site, or some sort of campaign to get people to your place. Either way, street presence from your 'look' and your site, and a PR campaign is a big part of it.

5. This is really a very small part of the overall. It sounds very important, and there are ways to save a few euros, but in the grand context, it's not that big a deal.

6. You are going to have to find your own capital to bring to this. I do not think you will get any money from the bank.

7. The key decision, Think about whether it is a destination or a place people drop into on the way to somewhere else. For the former, you don't need as good a location, but you do need some special draw. At the end of the day, it will be about what you can afford.

dubfaction

Folks thanks a million for all the replies and suggestions. Yes the issue of being exclusively veggie has more than crossed my mind. From research i have done to date that may be more of an issue than I initially thought which amazes me as there are so few veggie places for a city of Dublin's size.

Mentor1 thanks for offer and I'll get in touch once I have my plan more advanced.

dubfaction

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

1.
7. The key decision, Think about whether it is a destination or a place people drop into on the way to somewhere else. For the former, you don't need as good a location, but you do need some special draw. At the end of the day, it will be about what you can afford.

I am thinking that my place will be more a destination. It won't necessarily be a place that will appeal to everyone but I think that it will appeal to a certain kind of person who will tell their friends and return regularly. I'll advertise in the usual places but also through more specialist media that I would be familiar with i.e. music and vegetarian websites, blogs etc. I am also considering (only considering) the idea of situating my place in Phibsborough as ther is nothing at all worth talking about in the area - I know because I live there. Any thoughts on that idea?

Bandara

dubfaction wrote: »

I am thinking that my place will be more a destination. It won't necessarily be a place that will appeal to everyone but I think that it will appeal to a certain kind of person who will tell their friends and return regularly. I'll advertise in the usual places but also through more specialist media that I would be familiar with i.e. music and vegetarian websites, blogs etc. I am also considering (only considering) the idea of situating my place in Phibsborough as ther is nothing at all worth talking about in the area - I know because I live there. Any thoughts on that idea?

Phibsboro is a bad idea I think, its a rough kip with a bad vibe, I live/brought up not a million miles away. Junkies, bookies and off licenses are about the sum total.

I think your going to need a centrally located 'space'. Have you considered looking at a joint venture kind of tie in ?

For example the South William bar closed down there recently and is now being rethought out/used as a 'space' with leanings towards holistic and different lifestyle kind of people, it may just be a nice draw that would mutually assist you and them, and rent may be reasonable for such a strong location.

Just an idea that might be worth a look into

Also I would think that going just veggie is a risky one, My missus might be a veggie and want to go there but I'm your typical carnivore and won't go with her etc = lost customers.

Chet Zar

Hey OP,

Veggie - cafe - wine bar - venue - I think you might be trying to be all things to all people there. Also to echo what Hammertime said to an extent - I went to college near Phibsborough - can't picture a wine bar there myself, or much need for a hip veggie cafe/venue

I think you need to think more niche - if you could locate somewhere in town or in a nice suburb you could look at doing a late cafe with comfortable seats, nice ambient music etc, or maybe a wine bar with nice food, etc.

Most people seem to want to go to fancy or do it all - but if you look closely you'll see that the most popular venues just take a simple concept and nail it. They provide a great vibe, food, drink etc and create a buzz around it (or more that their fans do it for them). That's why the likes of Crackbird are so popular and profitable.

antoinolachtnai

I actually think there is something in the vegetarian business. Dublin could do with a strong, well-marketed, well-executed vegetarian offer to the mainstream. There is one notable vegetarian operation in Dublin 2, and it has its own very strong following, but is very weak in terms of execution and marketing beyond its own little niche.

This is tough to do. You really need a chef with a deep knowledge of sourcing ingredients for and preparing vegetarian food (certainly a lot more than I know about it). You also need to think about design and presentation. You would need to blaze a new trail here, not just follow some well-trodden path. In practice, this means that you need to do research (expensive), have a great chef (expensive) and invest in design (seems expensive, but is actually cheap compared to the other two.

That said, i can see why people are wary. The dirty little secret of the Dublin food industry is that the whole city is in fact one big chicken joint. Irish people are mad for chicken. They expect to be able to get chicken everywhere and they love paying for a good chicken dish.

I am really wary of your general idea of having a cool venue to hang out in the evenings. At the end of the day, this is a business, and you need to be getting a yield from every table to justify having it there and having the place open. I don't really think wine alone will give you that. I don't give you much hope to extract a cover charge from people for music and entertainment, and if you can't, it's just another cost to be paid for.

Trying to square the vegetarian circle and having a really cool venue seems like too much to do in one go.

Phibsboro? If you could get an established location, maybe. The 'villages' may be a growth area as much as the centre. Could Phibsboro be the new Ranelagh? It will take a while for sure, but maybe the potential is there. I don't really know.

What you are taking on is very big and ambitious, and you need to be sure you have enough money to do it. You also need to be sure that the project can produce big returns for you if you are successful.

four18

There is a place in Drumcondra,near Tesco and they are running a Munchies (sambos etc) during the day and then it transforms into Noodles at night. I dont know how its doing but its open a while now. Maybe you could go have a look during the day and then drop in some evening. It might give you a few ideas anyway. Heres a link
http://www.menupages.ie/dublin/north_dublin/drumcondra/noodles_at_night.aspx

dubfaction

four18 wrote: »

There is a place in Drumcondra,near Tesco and they are running a Munchies (sambos etc) during the day and then it transforms into Noodles at night. I dont know how its doing but its open a while now. Maybe you could go have a look during the day and then drop in some evening. It might give you a few ideas anyway. Heres a link
http://www.menupages.ie/dublin/north_dublin/drumcondra/noodles_at_night.aspx

Thanks, reviews on TripAdvisor and menupages are mixed. i live near so will pop in when passing

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

dubfaction

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I actually think there is something in the vegetarian business. Dublin could do with a strong, well-marketed, well-executed vegetarian offer to the mainstream. There is one notable vegetarian operation in Dublin 2, and it has its own very strong following, but is very weak in terms of execution and marketing beyond its own little niche.

This is tough to do. You really need a chef with a deep knowledge of sourcing ingredients for and preparing vegetarian food (certainly a lot more than I know about it). You also need to think about design and presentation. You would need to blaze a new trail here, not just follow some well-trodden path. In practice, this means that you need to do research (expensive), have a great chef (expensive) and invest in design (seems expensive, but is actually cheap compared to the other two.

That said, i can see why people are wary. The dirty little secret of the Dublin food industry is that the whole city is in fact one big chicken joint. Irish people are mad for chicken. They expect to be able to get chicken everywhere and they love paying for a good chicken dish.

I am really wary of your general idea of having a cool venue to hang out in the evenings. At the end of the day, this is a business, and you need to be getting a yield from every table to justify having it there and having the place open. I don't really think wine alone will give you that. I don't give you much hope to extract a cover charge from people for music and entertainment, and if you can't, it's just another cost to be paid for.

Trying to square the vegetarian circle and having a really cool venue seems like too much to do in one go.

Phibsboro? If you could get an established location, maybe. The 'villages' may be a growth area as much as the centre. Could Phibsboro be the new Ranelagh? It will take a while for sure, but maybe the potential is there. I don't really know.

What you are taking on is very big and ambitious, and you need to be sure you have enough money to do it. You also need to be sure that the project can produce big returns for you if you are successful.

Thanks all your remarks are well made - I know what you mean RE: having somewhere to hang out - I ran a club night in a City Centre pub some years back and many people (mostly tourists) would come in a just sit there or perhaps buy 2 or 3 drinks between 7 or 8 people and sit without spending another penny. Frustrating as the club was free in and I was taking percentage of the bar.

I do think Phibsborough is in need of an alternative to the downmarket places but do I want to be that person? Not so sure..

With regard to the vegetarian thing I am airing on the side of a vegetarian 'friendly' place. Basically means that much if not most of the food will be vegetarian with some meat options. There is a place just off Shop St in Galway that takes this approach and from my observations it does quiet well.


With regard to the other vegetarian place you mention I know exactly the place you mean and I will definitely not be trying to compete in their market. They do what they do extremely well and there is a massive amount of prep that goes into producing that food. They have a veritable army of staff and the operation runs like clockwork.

Your point about a really good chef is very pertinent and I will be placing that much higher on my list of priorities.

Thanks again for the advice and thoughts. I am seeing my business mentor one Wednesday and will be flagging some of you thoughts with him.

Regards,

D

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

antoinolachtnai

Just in terms of models, there are obviously exceptions to the rule, but you don't want to be basing your model on something you saw in Galway. Galway is generally (but obviously not always) behind trends in Dublin, and places like London, Paris and Copenhagen are ahead of Dublin. These are the places I would suggest you need to be looking to for your inspiration. There was a somewhat related article in a recent edition of Monocle, if you read such things.

RATM

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Just in terms of models, there are obviously exceptions to the rule, but you don't want to be basing your model on something you saw in Galway. Galway is generally (but obviously not always) behind trends in Dublin, and places like London, Paris and Copenhagen are ahead of Dublin. These are the places I would suggest you need to be looking to for your inspiration. There was a somewhat related article in a recent edition of Monocle, if you read such things.

This is exactly what I'd be doing OP if I were you. Get yourself to London and find the 'coolest, hipest' cafes & bars. Assess their decor and how it plays a part in forming their vibe. Copy their menus and ask the waiters what dishes are most popular.

There is a wealth of ideas that are very successful in London. Aforementioned restaurants like Crackbird, Bear etc are all copies of what has been happening in London 2-3 years ago.

Right now (in my opinion) there is scope in Dublin to establish a proper Argentinian Grill House (Asado). There is an Argentinian in Dublin 8 but it is just a normal restaurant with Argentinian food. A true Asado has an open pit barbeque with things like entire lamb carcasses slow cooking on racks over hot coals for 6-7 hours. The spectacle of the BBQ in a restaurants front window draws people in, as does the smell. It hasn't been done yet in Dublin but it is very successful in London in a number of venues.

If you want to create something really special that will stand out for years to come I'd be looking to London for inspiration.

Bandara

RATM wrote: »

This is exactly what I'd be doing OP if I were you. Get yourself to London and find the 'coolest, hipest' cafes & bars. Assess their decor and how it plays a part in forming their vibe. Copy their menus and ask the waiters what dishes are most popular.

There is a wealth of ideas that are very successful in London. Aforementioned restaurants like Crackbird, Bear etc are all copies of what has been happening in London 2-3 years ago.

Right now (in my opinion) there is scope in Dublin to establish a proper Argentinian Grill House (Asado). There is an Argentinian in Dublin 8 but it is just a normal restaurant with Argentinian food. A true Asado has an open pit barbeque with things like entire lamb carcasses slow cooking on racks over hot coals for 6-7 hours. The spectacle of the BBQ in a restaurants front window draws people in, as does the smell. It hasn't been done yet in Dublin but it is very successful in London in a number of venues.

If you want to create something really special that will stand out for years to come I'd be looking to London for inspiration.

The problem is its illegal to import Argentian steak into this country.