Peak Ali vs Peak Tyson

sxt

This is a fantasy fight that I rarely see on forums...Who wins? ... two Boxings legends... that engrossed the whole world with their charisma and talent..

RiseToTheTop

Ali IMO.

kryogen

Fairly sure this has been done, not too long ago?

cowzerp

I think it has but Ali would be a nightmare for Tyson, now if Ali tried rope a dope with Tyson it would be a bad move.

3ndahalfof6

cowzerp wrote: »

I think it has but Ali would be a nightmare for Tyson, now if Ali tried rope a dope with Tyson it would be a bad move.

not to sure about that, I reckon Foreman had a lot more power than Tyson, in the centre of the ring I think Ali would be in more trouble, all that being said I would give it to Ali, the fight would be over before they enter the ring with the mind games, Liston was no bag of shiite either they reckoned he had fierce power.

cowzerp

Foreman had more power but not by lots, it's the in close head hunting which separates the 2 for the rope a dope trick-Tyson used much shorter accurate powerful head shots, George was more looking for body and looping shots-rope a dope would be bad idea v mike, Ali would get on the feet and try keep Tyson out of range.

walshb

This "power" debate needs looking at. Are we strictly talking about the force of their bes shot/shots? If so, then Tyson to me was the deadlier hitter due to Tyson's faster delivery speed, and noticeably faster too. Foreman was very naturally heavy handed. A brutish hitter, but his delivery speed was not close to great. Tyson had great delivery speed, as did Louis. This is very important in debatining who hit harder for a single power shot, or a combination of shots.

Scale: Delivery speed for Tyson is a 9 or 10; for Foreman it's a 6.

Foreman did have that more natural or effortless power, but Mike always threw with wicked intent.

walshb

sxt wrote: »

This is a fantasy fight that I rarely see on forums...Who wins? ... two Boxings legends... that engrossed the whole world with their charisma and talent..

What is your pick? The modern, bigger and better technique, or Ali?;)

I'm going with Ali in a hell of a tough fight. At peak Mike Tyson 86-89 never came close to being beaten, either on points or by KO. He always came to fight, was a wicked hitter, and won't at all be an easy points win for any man.

plasmaguy

Tough one this.

At his peak, Ali was virtually unbeatable, his loss to Frazier and those at the end of his career, he was far from his peak.

Tyson however would have given him a really hard fight and possibly over 12 rounds Tyson would have shaded it on points.

cowzerp

plasmaguy wrote: »

Tyson however would have given him a really hard fight and possibly over 12 rounds Tyson would have shaded it on points.

No way he out points Ali, He could Ko him but not beat him on points.

Ali would really get into Tysons head and most likely humiliate him.

RXMPS

I think Tyson would knock him out, Ali was not a big man and assuming they were both in their primes, then not even Ali could take one of Tyson's left hooks.

Ali did lose to Trevor Berbick and Tyson cleared him out of the ring with a few slaps, past his prime he was but a tough man still.

Ali met some ferocious men, but he never met anyone like the a young Tyson who the speed, power, timing, defence and skills to trouble anyone.

He was a far superior athlete to your Foreman's, Shavers, Fraziers and a better boxer as well with a great defence.

Ali was pretty easy to hit as well and Mike could knock out anyone.

plasmaguy

RXMPS wrote: »

I think Tyson would knock him out, Ali was not a big man and assuming they were both in their primes, then not even Ali could take one of Tyson's left hooks.

Ali did lose to Trevor Berbick and Tyson cleared him out of the ring with a few slaps, past his prime he was but a tough man still.

Ali met some ferocious men, but he never met anyone like the a young Tyson who the speed, power, timing, defence and skills to trouble anyone.

He was a far superior athlete to your Foreman's, Shavers, Fraziers and a better boxer as well with a great defence.

Ali was pretty easy to hit as well and Mike could knock out anyone.

There were a few boxers from the Ali era still around in the Tyson era. There was only about 10 years between the end of Ali's prime ie 1976 and the start of Tyson's, 1986, so there were a couple of boxers who crossed both eras.

Berbick, one of the Spinks brothers and Larry Holmes.

I'm not sure though any of these were still in their prime and even though a couple of them beat Ali, he was long past his best. Indeed, if you watch some of the build up to those latter fights on youtube and the like, Ali has already started to slur his words, and he seems slow in his reactions and thought processes, so he may have been in the early undiagnosed stages of his illness when he took back the title a 3rd time, but certainly in his last two fights.

So Tyson demolished a few of Ali's opponents yes, but they were hardly in their prime then, and Ali wasn't in his when he fought them.

But I agree that Tyson would have been a tough opponent for Ali with his speed and movement.

RiseToTheTop

@RXMPS: Using your logic of Berbick beating Ali, and saying that Tyson is better than Ali based on that. You could argue that Tomasz Adamek is better than Tyson because Adamek beat Kevin McBride.

RXMPS

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

@RXMPS: Using your logic of Berbick beating Ali, and saying that Tyson is better than Ali based on that. You could argue that Tomasz Adamek is better than Tyson because Adamek beat Kevin McBride.

That is true.

Ali and especially Tyson where finished when they lost those fights.Prime we all know they would have no problems with Berick and McBride.

Plasmaguy and yourself are right in saying that we can't compare opponents, like plasma said all the guys who beat Ali and then went on to get demolished by Tyson were all over 30 when Tyson met them.

Granted Holmes was inactive in '87, but his last fight was a very close one against Spinks and he came into the Tyson fight in supreme shape and at his prime weight.

Holmes proved he still was a very good boxer after Tyson as well, able to mix it with Holyfield, McCall and even manged to beat Mercer (who had just come off an upset win against the WBO champ Morrison).

We can compare one though.

Frazier, a man who caused Ali serious problems with his movement and left hook.Ali was not prime in that fight due to prison, but still very good.

You would imagine a faster, stronger, bigger and more powerful Tyson who also had a wicked left hook would cause similar problems.

Frazier himself would honestly laugh if someone suggested he could beat Mike.That's how much he thought of Tyson.He has said many times that he wouldn't beat him and thought Tyson's style was all wrong for Ali.

cowzerp

In fairness I do see the Tyson Frazier link, Tyson was like a stronger faster version of Frazier but 1 thing that really seperates them is when the **** hits the fan will Tyson keep going like Frazier. Tyson could trouble Ali but Ali could embarrass Tyson too.

Tyson hit so hard and only a handfull of fighters had power like him, so that gives him a chance v anyone at peak.

RiseToTheTop

IMO if Ali could take Foreman's, Shavers', Frazier + Liston's best punches he could take Tyson's best punches.

Plus you know Ali wouldn't do a Michael Spinks and come into the ring terrified, Ali would be full of confidence.

plasmaguy

Tyson knocked out a lot of average, poor and overhyped fighters that's for certain, having said that, some journeymen pros took him to 5 or 6 rounds.

Ali in his prime certainly never fought any journeymen, he fought all the major contenders when to be a contender meant something, and I don't think he fought anyone who you might consider past it.

When Tyson came up against Bonecrusher Smith, he wasn't able to knock him out, as Smith was too experienced, but Smith wasn't interested in fighting, just surviving. Ali would be similar to that, take him to the latter rounds, by using all his experience to hang on.

Ali was always capable of a good round, even when his back was to the wall.

Ali probably wouldn't outpoint Tyson, so he'd have to knock him out straight, not easily done, but if anyone could do it, Ali could.

Dohnny Jepp

plasmaguy wrote: »

Ali probably wouldn't outpoint Tyson, so he's have to knock him out straight, not easily done, but if anyone could do it, Ali could.

Of course ali could outpoint him. Ali would likely outpoint him infact

cowzerp

Dohnny Jepp wrote: »

Of course ali could outpoint him. Ali would likely outpoint him infact

Here here!

How can people think Ali gets outpointed by Tyson-it's ludicrous, if Tyson can out point Ali then their is no question he wins this fight, as Ali would have no way to win except a ko and Tyson has the advantage there too

walshb

I don't at all see a points win as ludicrous. Tyson at peak was never close to being beaten, by KO or points. Ali may find himself 4 or 5 rds in trying to establish a plan and rhythm. Ali will have to also be very cautious and aware of that power. Mike was FAR from easy to simply jab and out point. For Ali to win he has to keep a distance, and he also has to score. Not at all that easy against a bob and weave Tyson. Tyson in close is advantage Tyson, as Ali rarely did much in close.

Look at the issues the smaller bob and weave Frazier caused in 1971. And that Frazier hadn't the same power or speed or punch variation that Tyson had. Now, that was Ali in 1971, but even in '67 Ali may find that Frazier a handful.

RiseToTheTop

Regards Ali's jab VS Tyson, I read that Ali had a test done.

He had to throw his jab against a black wall from where he was standing, and everything was timed. His jab reached the wall in 0.19th of a second. (Just less than a 5th of a second.) To put this into perspective, it only took the motion of a blink of an eye for Ali to land his jab.

Would Tyson be able to bob and weave out of the way in time? Ali's jab was so quick.

walshb

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

Regards Ali's jab VS Tyson, I read that Ali had a test done.

He had to throw his jab against a black wall from where he was standing, and everything was timed. His jab reached the wall in 0.19th of a second. (Just less than a 5th of a second.) To put this into perspective, it only took the motion of a blink of an eye for Ali to land his jab.

Would Tyson be able to bob and weave out of the way in time? Ali's jab was so quick.

Hey, Ali's jab was amazing, and I am sure he will nail Tyson with jabs, but also, plenty did manage to avoid and get under it. Tyson will, and it is here where Tyson is so dangerous. As I mentioned, Frazier did get to Ali a helluva lot in fight 1, and he didn't possess the same kind of varied firepower that Tyson did. Ali's jab had great range and fluidity and speed, it hadn't the same pop as Liston's or Holmes. Tyson is a bit lucky here for this.

I will take Clay/Ali of the 60s to win, but it's far from an easy win. And I think many of the rds will be very close. Nobody dominated a peak Tyson. I know I know, Buster did beat him, and Buster fought his ass off with real heavy leather too. Douglas's jab was a great weapon, and stiffer and heavier than Ali's too. Also, Buster threw every shot in the book. As heavy a hitter, if not heavier than a 60s Ali.

Clay/Ali will not fight Tyson as aggressively as Buster. You need to put a pasting on a peak Tyson to beat him. I see this as very close. Hence my 6-4 for Ali in a 10 fight series.

RiseToTheTop

Well the Tyson who fought Douglas wasn't at his best cos Kevin Rooney, etc where gone. I like to think of prime Tyson as Michael Spinks version.

I think the Ali who fought Frazier in 1971 isn't peak, he didn't dance much, and I don't think that was his choice. Interesting point though. Tyson didn't have the relentless pressure of Frazier but he had quicker hand speed, combos yet equal in power. Tyson was more ferocious. (him and Dempsey are the most ferocious IMO.)

I do agree the very best Mike Tyson would have been very tough for Ali, no question he'd be along with Frazier, Foreman, Liston, etc as one of his toughest opponents. Ali does win most times though IMO.

walshb

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

Well the Tyson who fought Douglas wasn't at his best cos Kevin Rooney, etc where gone. I like to think of prime Tyson as Michael Spinks version.

I think the Ali who fought Frazier in 1971 isn't peak, he didn't dance much, and I don't think that was his choice. Interesting point though. Tyson didn't have the relentless pressure of Frazier but he had quicker hand speed, combos yet equal in power.

I do agree the very best Mike Tyson would have been very tough for Ali, no question he'd be along with Frazier, Foreman, Liston, etc as one of his toughest opponents. Ali does win most times though IMO.

I would say the 1964-1967 Ali is the one to use and pit him against the 1986-1988 Tyson. That to me is both mens absolute prime. Ali has the foots peed here to be vert troublesome. I referenced the 1971 Ali to show that men can get uder the jab, now Tyson had quicker feet than Joe, and he was a deadlier all around hitter too. Could Tyson get under the 1964-1967 Ali? Yes, and that is why I feel it's a very tough fight.

RiseToTheTop

What do you mean by "get under"?

walshb

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

What do you mean by "get under"?

Bob, weave, avoid and come under the jab and then up with your shots. Get in and negate the jab, allowing himself to unload his short and deadly power shots in close. He stays outside and cannot close the distance, and Ali beats him all night. Tyson was very adept at figuring out far taller men.

RiseToTheTop

I agree Tyson was good at fighting taller men, plus getting inside longer reaches.

Though with Ali you have the speed, how would Tyson do with the speed? Could the jab + speed stop Tyson from getting under? Quick Tillis rattled Mike's beads when he danced.