Matchmaking

thadiisgirl

Forgive me if this has already been done to death on here, but I'm intrigued by this concept and how it worked in Ireland over the years. Was it prevalent everywhere, or limited to certain areas eg Lisdoonvarna? Did it apply across all classes of people?

Can anyone shed any more light on this please? Or is it a load of old blarney?

P. Breathnach

It's far from being old blarney. It was a common practice in rural Ireland on the 19th century, and continued into the earlier part of the 20th century in many places.

I think, but I don't know, that it was less common in urban areas.

My rural grandparents married in 1910; theirs was an arranged marriage. My other grandparents were urban; their marriage was not arranged for them.

thadiisgirl

Right - so I can safely assume the same for my rural, farming 19th C forebears then?

Was your grandparent's marriage a happy one, do you know? Assuming they were RC, there way no way out if it wasn't in those days, so one would hope so...

P. Breathnach

thadiisgirl wrote: »

Right - so I can safely assume the same for my rural, farming 19th C forebears then?

I'd regard it as a good probability.

Was your grandparent's marriage a happy one, do you know? Assuming they were RC, there way no way out if it wasn't in those days, so one would hope so...

I don't know a great deal about how happy they were, largely because my grandmother died young. There is a family story that he never slept again in the room in which she died, which suggests that her loss had a great impact on him.

But I don't think happy marriage was on the agenda in the same way that it is today. People wanted practical workable arrangements, often tied up with securing property and ensuring good community relationships.

I know that my great-grandfather fell in love with a particular girl, but married a different one who was chosen for him in order to secure his widowed sister's position. He was stoic about it: it had to be done; that was the way of the time.

jonniebgood1

thadiisgirl wrote: »

Forgive me if this has already been done to death on here, but I'm intrigued by this concept and how it worked in Ireland over the years. Was it prevalent everywhere, or limited to certain areas eg Lisdoonvarna? Did it apply across all classes of people?

Can anyone shed any more light on this please? Or is it a load of old blarney?

This could be a great topic OP so thanks for bringing it up.
I am going to delve as P. Breathnach has towards the topic of arranged marriages in Ireland. It was a way of life in a previous era. In the time after the famine it became more common for fathers to come to arrangements for marriages of their children, often it was convenient to trade off family members to reduce reliance on their own land holdings (in the case of daughters).

Before the Famine, then, it was not unreasonable for peasant sons
and daughters, while still young adults, to feel that they could, at
will, transform themselves into husbands or wives the first move
towards marriage was their own But during the Famine, and in the
following years, children commonly lost this initiative to their fathers
A marriage came to be heralded by commercial rather than biological
advances , and until the two fathers concerned had completed their
negotiations their children remained unmarried Any clash of will
between fathers and sons was incidental to this shift of the source of
decision After the Famine, as before, it was customary for a couple
to marry only when assured of adequate land—land, that is, sufficient
to promise the support of a new family Before the Famine " adequacy
" had been finely defined none had long to spend looking for
his few acres But afterwards tenants (and landlords even more so)
had lost their faith m tiny holdings And for reasons more compelling,
if farms were to be made viable, they had also to be made
larger We must digress now from the transformation of the mstitutution
of marriage to seek the causes of the consolidation of holdings
which underlay it. from 'Marriage m Ireland after the Famine' : The
Diffusion of the Match
By K H CONNELL, Queen's University

After the famine passed the attitude of acceptance of arranged 'matches' increased. It seems that it was seen as necessary.

Family loyalty, even at a personal loss, and small families, both were
inherent in the make-up of the match, and both were cultivated m
men and women reared to feel distaste for marriage more liberally
arranged Just as these characteristics, and the form of marriage that
fostered them, had been instruments of self-preservation m families
that had faimed m a large way before the Famine, so, later on, when
the ordinary peasant played the role of substantial farmer (however
unconvmcmgly to the spectator) he, too, was inclined to welcome the
arranged marriage for its defence of a way of life more worthy of
preservation than any he had known from 'Marriage m Ireland after the Famine' : The
Diffusion of the Match
By K H CONNELL, Queen's University

The payment of a dowry would also have played a part in the arranged marriages in some cases.

http://www.tara.tcd.ie/bitstream/2262/4266/1/jssisiVolXVIXPart4_82103.pdf

Peregrinus

thadiisgirl wrote: »

Right - so I can safely assume the same for my rural, farming 19th C forebears then?

Matchmade marriages were common in rural areas, but by no means universal.

thadiisgirl wrote: »

Was your grandparent's marriage a happy one, do you know? Assuming they were RC, there way no way out if it wasn't in those days, so one would hope so...

Depressingly, there is no evidence that self-selected marriages are any happier than those which are matchmade.

jonniebgood1

The Irish family history website has a description of the role of the matchmaker in the west. Its only a blog but makes some good points.

According to accounts relating to the west of Ireland the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, a man might approach the matchmaker and discuss with him those women he liked. The matchmaker would then consider which women were good potential matches based on his knowledge of both individuals.

Often once the potential matches had been selected the matchmaker would set one evening for the house of the first choice and speak with the father, extolling the virtues of the young man. If the father was interested, then he could arrange to meet the potential groom’s father for further discussions and to walk the land of the farm his daughter would be moving to. The extent to which the daughter was involved in the decision depended on the father.

If the father was not interested, the matchmaker might go on to the house of the second choice, and so on until dawn broke. The reason he had to keep pressing on was that the following day everyone would know of his visits, and no-one else would be interested in a proposal from the potential groom, knowing he had been rejected by others, so the matchmaker had to try to find a match that evening. http://irishfamilyhistory.ie/blog/?p=96

It is hard to make out how serious matchmaking may have been and how it varied from area to area. In 'Gaelic Prose in the Irish free state' the author Philip O'Leary notes that "matchmaking and marriage were frequently seen as either standing jokes or ruling passions in literary works about rural Ireland" Pg143. So if they were used as a joke in literature, what were they in reality- did people take them seriously as an assistant in the arranging of marriages?

jonniebgood1

From the Irish penny journal of 1840, volume 1, pg 116, 117. An explanation of the Irish matchmaker and why they are needed:

Though this word at a glance may be said to explain itself, yet lest our English or Scotch readers might not clearly understand its meaning, we shall briefly give them such a definition of it as will enable them to comprehend it in its full extent. The Irish Matchmaker, then, is a person selected to conduct reciprocity treaties of the heart between lovers themselves in the first instance, or, where the principal parties arc indifferent, between their respective families, when the latter happen to be of opinion that it is a safer and more prudent thing to consult the interest of the young folk rather than their inclination. In short, the Matchmaker is the person engaged in carrying from one party to another all the messages, letters, tokens, presents, and secret communications of the tender passion, in whatever shape or character the said parties may deem it proper to transmit them. The Matchmaker, therefore, is a general negociator in all such matters of love or interest as are designed by the principals or their friends to terminate in the honourable bona of marriage; for with nothing morally improper or licentious, or approaching to the character of an intrigue, will the regular Irisn Matchmaker have any thing at all to do. The Matchmaker, therefore, after all, is only the creature of necessity, and is never engaged by an Irishman unless to remove such preliminary obstacles as may stand in the way of his own direct operations. In point of fact, the Matchmaker is nothing but a pioneer, who, after the plan of the attack has been laid down, clears away some of the rougher difficulties, until the regular advance is made, the siege opened in due form, and the citadel successfully entered by the principal party.

Get this for some 1840's controversial opinion:

Irishmen are personally deficient in that fluent energy which is so necessary to express the emotions of the tender passion.

But he then retrieves himself before anyones blood pressure rises:

In love matters, I grant, modesty is the forte of an Irishman, whose character in this respect has been unconsciously hit off by the poet. Indeed he may truly be termed vultus ingenuipuer, ingenuique piuioris; which means, when translated, that in looking for a wife an Irishman is "a boy of an easy face, and remarkable modesty."

Fratton Fred

Were young marriages also common?

My great grandmother from Macroom was widowed at 21 with four children. Her husband was kicked by a horse and she left her four children with her parents and headed over to England. She then married an Englishman against the wishes of her father and she never saw him, or Ireland again. Three of her children did eventually join her though.

Could her first marriage, at around 17 have been arranged? This would have been around the 1890s

P. Breathnach

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Were young marriages also common?

Based on what Herself and I have found in our genealogical researches, I would say "not uncommon". Some girls married at 16 or 17, but most were a little older.

My great grandmother from Macroom was widowed at 21 with four children. Her husband was kicked by a horse and she left her four children with her parents and headed over to England. She then married an Englishman against the wishes of her father and she never saw him, or Ireland again. Three of her children did eventually join her though.

Sad story. Families always were difficult.

Could her first marriage, at around 17 have been arranged? This would have been around the 1890s

Hard to say. If there was land involved, I'd lean towards an arranged marriage; if not, I don't think you can suppose one thing or the other unless you have some additional facts.

pedroeibar1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Were young marriages also common?

My great grandmother from Macroom was widowed at 21 with four children. Her husband was kicked by a horse and she left her four children with her parents and headed over to England. She then married an Englishman against the wishes of her father and she never saw him, or Ireland again. Three of her children did eventually join her though.

Could her first marriage, at around 17 have been arranged? This would have been around the 1890s

The youngest marriage I have found in my tree (I have recorded 15 of 16 great grandparents and ) is my great great grandmother, born 1829 who married in 1848, a couple of months shy of her 20th birthday (she was a tenant farmer’s daughter in Co. Tipp). All other ancestors on both sides were well into their twenties on marriage.


Seventeen seems young for an arranged marriage. Have you looked at the date of her wedding/ birth of first child?

Fratton Fred

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The youngest marriage I have found in my tree (I have recorded 15 of 16 great grandparents and ) is my great great grandmother, born 1829 who married in 1848, a couple of months shy of her 20th birthday (she was a tenant farmer’s daughter in Co. Tipp). All other ancestors on both sides were well into their twenties on marriage.


Seventeen seems young for an arranged marriage. Have you looked at the date of her wedding/ birth of first child?

I hadn't thought of that. I never thought to question my Great granny's honour!

P. Breathnach

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The youngest marriage I have found in my tree (I have recorded 15 of 16 great grandparents and ) is my great great grandmother, born 1829 who married in 1848, a couple of months shy of her 20th birthday (she was a tenant farmer’s daughter in Co. Tipp). All other ancestors on both sides were well into their twenties on marriage.

Seventeen seems young for an arranged marriage.

I agree that 17 is on the young side, but Herself and I have both found marriages that young which seemed to have been arranged. I also found a sister of my great-grandmother who had a marriage arranged for her when she was just 13.

Have you looked at the date of her wedding/ birth of first child?

Always worth a look.

P. Breathnach

Fratton Fred wrote: »

... She then married an Englishman against the wishes of her father and she never saw him, or Ireland again....

Just a thought: might it have been the case that her father felt that it was his parental right to decide who she might marry?

Peregrinus

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Just a thought: might it have been the case that her father felt that it was his parental right to decide who she might marry?

Possibly. But he could equally have taken a less extreme view, such as that he had a right to veto her chosen marriage partners, or simply that he had a right to insist that she not marry a foreigner, or someone of a different religion (though, of course, we don't know that the Englishman was of a different religion).

Fratton Fred

Peregrinus wrote: »

Possibly. But he could equally have taken a less extreme view, such as that he had a right to veto her chosen marriage partners, or simply that he had a right to insist that she not marry a foreigner, or someone of a different religion (though, of course, we don't know that the Englishman was of a different religion).

She was a Catholic, he was an Anglican. He was also in the army so two possible reasons, but I think the faith one is the answer.

It is more the fact that she was widowed at 21 with four kids that intrigues me.

pedroeibar1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I hadn't thought of that. I never thought to question my Great granny's honour!

It's worth a look - one of my great grandmothers had a child 4 years before her marriage to my ggfather and she again was 6 mths pregnant when they married. She must have been tough as old boots as she was a widow at 33 (in 1905) with 7 children and managed not only to keep the farm but to expand it.

My guess is that your GGM was a ‘wild’ young girl and the cause of much angst to her poor old Da. She marries at 16 or 17, she has four kids in rapid succession, is left a widow and runs off to England leaving the kids with her parents. It would be interesting to ascertain if the new (soldier) husband had been stationed in Ireland – Ballincollig had a big military presence AFAIK, and it’s not too far from Macroom. Parental opposition to the match probably was a combination of children in Ireland, new marriage in England and a different religion, rather than any single one. Add military if her father was one of the growing wave of nationalists.

Ostrom

My own parents mentioned 'walking the land' in the time of their own marriage (property was not involved in theirs as the farm went to my uncle). The antiquity of formal arrangement as an institution is contested however, and critics of Arensberg and Kimball suggest it was unique to the period of post-famine consolidation.

Fratton Fred

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

It's worth a look - one of my great grandmothers had a child 4 years before her marriage to my ggfather and she again was 6 mths pregnant when they married. She must have been tough as old boots as she was a widow at 33 (in 1905) with 7 children and managed not only to keep the farm but to expand it.

My guess is that your GGM was a ‘wild’ young girl and the cause of much angst to her poor old Da. She marries at 16 or 17, she has four kids in rapid succession, is left a widow and runs off to England leaving the kids with her parents. It would be interesting to ascertain if the new (soldier) husband had been stationed in Ireland – Ballincollig had a big military presence AFAIK, and it’s not too far from Macroom. Parental opposition to the match probably was a combination of children in Ireland, new marriage in England and a different religion, rather than any single one. Add military if her father was one of the growing wave of nationalists.

That's one of the things we are trying to ascertain. We know she moved to Portsmouth, but we don't know why. My GGF joined the Royal Enniskillens in Portsmouth as they were based there at the time and from there they went to India, so I don't think he ever actually served in Ireland. His Boer war medal was sent to an address in Cobh, but I believe he had been discharged by then due to injuries from the war.

It is a curious story and one I would love to get to the bottom of.

Emily was apparently a quiet very godly sort of person.

sealgaire

still goes on in the Farming community in Roscommon beleive it or not.

thadiisgirl

Oooh! Sealgaire, tell us more please!

I'm from Roscommon farming stock myself so I'm most interested in your comment. Any particular places? We're from the Killukin area and thereabouts.

nuac

There was always some arranging of marriages.

some by professional matchmakers, some by quiet chats between parents at fairs, weddings etc.

For those in business the commercial travellers who travelled around for orders would mention possible matches in other towns.

Travel and communications were not as easy as nowadays

sealgaire

brideswell. Not saying its common, very rare I ahve to say. but still on the go