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BE Town and City Services

  • 09-02-2012 10:56pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 7,601 ✭✭✭ dublinman1990


    MOD - Posts moved from other thread

    I have just discovered that the new double decker and single city buses for BE which 15 are to go to Cork (11 VWL'S and 4 VWD'S). It is now being reported that they will be up and running in the City from next week.

    2 of the buses (VWL 301 & VWD 12) were used for the launch of Cork's Pilot RTPI Service at Grand Parade early this morning.

    (Photos of the launch of RTPI in Cork here*): http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6846121207/in/set-72157629246233395

    Note*: Photos ^ are not from the official photo shoot.

    (Press Release outlining the new service in Cork here):
    http://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/CORK-RTPI-Announcement-Feb-9-2012.pdf

    It is also that 3 of the new SE's (6 wheeled Irizar coaches) will be used for BE expressway route 8 Between Dublin and Cork.

    There is a possibility that the rest of the older fleet will be used to do other duties in Galway.


Comments

  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    One thing I can't understand is why Leap Card isn't being rolled out in Cork?

    Cork seems perfect for Leap Card, Cork has a flat fare, so you would only need to tag-on with Leap and no need to interact with the driver.

    They should also use double door buses in Cork with people exiting via the rare door.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭ markpb


    bk wrote: »
    One thing I can't understand is why Leap Card isn't being rolled out in Cork?

    It probably will be but not yet. One city/town at a time :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 antoobrien


    bk wrote: »
    One thing I can't understand is why Leap Card isn't being rolled out in Cork?

    Cork seems perfect for Leap Card, Cork has a flat fare, so you would only need to tag-on with Leap and no need to interact with the driver.

    In fairness I can't understand why it wasn't trialled in the likes of Cork or Galway. Flat fares and a much smaller fleet to fit out (Galway has 9 be routes). It'd have made for lower initial costs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭ markpb


    antoobrien wrote: »
    In fairness I can't understand why it wasn't trialled in the likes of Cork or Galway. Flat fares and a much smaller fleet to fit out (Galway has 9 be routes). It'd have made for lower initial costs.

    At risk of pointing out the obvious, it's an integrated ticket. Trialing it in a town or city with only one operator would be close to useless. Trialing it in a fixed fare setup is even less useful.

    The only costs you would defer are the upgrade costs for the operator equipment - all the software and system costs will still have to be paid up front. All the operators in Dublin already had equipment of some kind.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 antoobrien


    markpb wrote: »
    At risk of pointing out the obvious, it's an integrated ticket. Trialing it in a town or city with only one operator would be close to useless. Trialing it in a fixed fare setup is even less useful.

    DB are effectively using it as a fixed fare system. You have to tell the bus driver where you're going so there's no advantage to using the card for queuing.

    Not sure what you're getting at about the integrated thing, afaik IE and Luas systems haven't changed so it's be a matter of getting the right equipment to ensure that they're interoperable - not exactly a massive problem.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭ markpb


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Not sure what you're getting at about the integrated thing, afaik IE and Luas systems haven't changed so it's be a matter of getting the right equipment to ensure that they're interoperable - not exactly a massive problem.

    Putting stored value on a card for a single operator is trivial, the whole and only point of the Leap project was to allow all the operators to share the same card, to facilitate financial settlement between them and to add extra features like inter-operator capping.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    markpb wrote: »
    Putting stored value on a card for a single operator is trivial, the whole and only point of the Leap project was to allow all the operators to share the same card, to facilitate financial settlement between them and to add extra features like inter-operator capping.

    Unfortunately Leap on Dublin Bus is turning into a complete disaster, with it taking almost twice as long to pay with Leap card as with cash and therefore pushing up dwell and journey times.

    Had it first been trialled in Cork, Galway, etc. the benefits of flat fares, no driver interaction could have been seen and perhaps implemented on DB.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭ Solair


    Whatever about Leap, there's no reason why Bus Eireann couldn't implement an off-the-shelf smart card system for Cork and Galway.

    The problem isn't integrated ticketing, rather it's slow boarding times caused by endless change-counting.

    A simple card solution, similar to the Dublin Bus prepay tickets could have been implemented in Cork years ago.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭ markpb


    bk wrote: »
    Had it first been trialled in Cork, Galway, etc. the benefits of flat fares, no driver interaction could have been seen and perhaps implemented on DB.

    Again, Leap facilitates the storage of cash and existing operator tickets on a single card. It doesn't change the tickets they sell or how they interact with their customers - that's still entirely in the hands of each operator. Just because BE managed to implement a flat fare and have smartcard with zero driver interaction would have absolutely no impact on DB. They do their own thing (particularly badly) and pay no attention to what goes on in other companies or other cities.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 antoobrien


    Solair wrote: »

    The problem isn't integrated ticketing, rather it's slow boarding times caused by endless change-counting.

    It's caused by the fact that you have to tell the driver where you're going (and then they guess the fare), and not tag on/off like in the luas & dart.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭ Solair


    antoobrien wrote: »
    It's caused by the fact that you have to tell the driver where you're going (and then they guess the fare), and not tag on/off like in the luas & dart.


    In Cork, it's endless change counting that causes the problem. It's actually quite significantly slow at busy stops. The bus can wait up to a good 4 to 5 mins!!

    Also, Cork does not have a flat fare system. The 216 to Mountoval has two stages. It costs more to go to the end of the line than it does to Douglas

    You've also then got the problem with lack of integration of busses to close-by satellite towns like Carrigaline, Midleton, Blarney, Glanmire, Passagewest/Monkstown etc etc. They don't stop at city bus stops and have a different fare structure.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Solair wrote: »
    Whatever about Leap, there's no reason why Bus Eireann couldn't implement an off-the-shelf smart card system for Cork and Galway.

    That is exactly what Leap is.

    Leap is pretty much off the shelf, RFID, e-purse card. Obviously Cork, Galway, etc. don't need Leaps fancier features like integrated ticketing. But there is no reason why you wouldn't use Leap in Cork.

    The ticket machines, RFID cards and RFID readers would be exactly the same in both cases. But with Leap you get the benefit of the already built backend system, wesite, etc.

    It would be more expensive for BE to come up with it's own system rather then just use Leap.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭ Solair


    bk wrote: »
    That is exactly what Leap is.

    Leap is pretty much off the shelf, RFID, e-purse card. Obviously Cork, Galway, etc. don't need Leaps fancier features like integrated ticketing. But there is no reason why you wouldn't use Leap in Cork.

    The ticket machines, RFID cards and RFID readers would be exactly the same in both cases. But with Leap you get the benefit of the already built backend system, wesite, etc.

    It would be more expensive for BE to come up with it's own system rather then just use Leap.

    Well, there is commuter rail in Cork too (Cobh/Midleton/Mallow). So, I suppose you could integrate that into it & probably the park and ride systems.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 antoobrien


    bk wrote: »
    That is exactly what Leap is.

    Leap is pretty much off the shelf, RFID, e-purse card. Obviously Cork, Galway, etc. don't need Leaps fancier features like integrated ticketing. But there is no reason why you wouldn't use Leap in Cork.

    The ticket machines, RFID cards and RFID readers would be exactly the same in both cases. But with Leap you get the benefit of the already built backend system, wesite, etc.

    It would be more expensive for BE to come up with it's own system rather then just use Leap.

    Added bonus that the CityDirect (aka the red bus) buses that operate in the west of Galway city could also use such a system (subject to licensing fees etc).


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭ Poxyshamrock


    How come Limerick isn't receiving any of the new fleet?

    Its 308 and 304 services are ridiculously over crowded at times and would benefit from double deckers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 443 ✭✭ Ernest


    New buses with same dreary old wine-coloured livery. They could learn something from Dublin Bus about how nice bright attractive livery enhances the product and makes travel more appealing.
    Really!:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭ Solair


    They should have proper city branding in Cork, Limerick and Galway.
    It's confusing enough that the long-distances busses and busses in major urban areas have the exact same branding!


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Solair wrote: »
    They should have proper city branding in Cork, Limerick and Galway.
    It's confusing enough that the long-distances busses and busses in major urban areas have the exact same branding!

    I would go a step further and say that Cork/Galway/Limerick should have their own bus companies which are at least partly owned and controlled by their respective city and county councils.

    BE seem to treat the city bus services as an afterthought. These services are frankly awful in comparison with Dublin Bus!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,738 ✭✭✭✭ corktina


    I certainly agree there!

    Bus provision should be under the control of local councils as a mstter of course, even if BE still provides the actual services. Slightley more accountable to the passengers that way./


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 antoobrien


    bk wrote: »
    I would go a step further and say that Cork/Galway/Limerick should have their own bus companies which are at least partly owned and controlled by their respective city and county councils.

    Their own companies I'm not sure about, direct control of the routes by the council I'd be in favour of. The NTA currently license the local bus routes as well (which has become clear in Galway with the announcement of new routes in the past few months).

    I'd rather see more local control and tendering of the bus routes than having it all done from dublin, it might speed up the process (but then we are talking about Galway city council so it might make things worse).

    Are we getting slightly OT with this, should we split it out into it's on thread for proper discussion?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 BluntGuy


    New thread created, as requested.

    If anyone wants a better title, let me know.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,325 ✭✭✭ hans aus dtschl


    bk wrote: »
    BE seem to treat the city bus services as an afterthought. These services are frankly awful in comparison with Dublin Bus!!

    Because they're a loss maker to them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 antoobrien


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    New thread created, as requested.

    If anyone wants a better title, let me know.

    BE use Town/City services to describe it on their website. Since we're not limiting ourselves to just Cork, Limerick or Galway I'd suggest something along the lines of BE Town & City services


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 antoobrien


    Because they're a loss maker to them.

    I'd love to know how a bus route carrying 1m passengers in a year can make a loss


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,325 ✭✭✭ hans aus dtschl


    Well I don't actually care either way HOW it makes a loss, anto because I don't work for them, but I'd guess it's something to do with the price of tickets not covering the cost of providing the service.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 antoobrien


    Well I don't actually care either way HOW it makes a loss, anto because I don't work for them, but I'd guess it's something to do with the price of tickets not covering the cost of providing the service.

    I don't understand how you can claim they're making a loss when the BE results don't mention the regional services at all beyond saying they exist.

    Have you any proof that they're losing money are is it just a guess based on the fact that they are part funded by the PSO payments?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭ AngryLips


    bk wrote: »
    Unfortunately Leap on Dublin Bus is turning into a complete disaster, with it taking almost twice as long to pay with Leap card as with cash and therefore pushing up dwell and journey times.

    Is this just anecdotal? Because speaking from my own experience that is not the case, quite the opposite in fact.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,325 ✭✭✭ hans aus dtschl


    antoobrien wrote: »
    I don't understand how you can claim they're making a loss when the BE results don't mention the regional services at all beyond saying they exist.

    Have you any proof that they're losing money are is it just a guess based on the fact that they are part funded by the PSO payments?

    Are you serious? There's figures all over the place. It's a very transparent company (it would want to be, as it's semi-state). They're entirely reliant on public service obligations payments. And that's normal, for a public service. The deloitte article here goes into what other countries pay in PSO's, furthermore.

    http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=bus%20eireann%20city%20services%20making%20a%20loss&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDcQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.transport.ie%2Fupload%2Fgeneral%2F11393-0.pdf&ei=l8JHT8ybAoWmhAfO6K28Dg&usg=AFQjCNHJxGzkP-MuzbAPYgCwhYmjwxvaaQ


    http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=bus%20eireann%20city%20services%20making%20a%20loss&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.buseireann.ie%2Fpdf%2F1307721045-BE-CIE-Report-2010-WEB.pdf&ei=l8JHT8ybAoWmhAfO6K28Dg&usg=AFQjCNH9LMRcoKTpu43TXirfTBf6c-Bt_A

    2010
    Commercial and schools transport:
    Revenue 218,976
    Costs (224,233)

    Stage Carriage
    Revenue 44,370
    Costs (71,394)

    City
    Revenue 22,524
    Costs (37,525)

    Sub Total
    Revenue 66,894
    Costs (108,919)

    Total
    Revenue 285,870
    Costs (333,152)


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    bk wrote: »
    Leap is pretty much off the shelf, RFID, e-purse card. Obviously Cork, Galway, etc. don't need Leaps fancier features like integrated ticketing. But there is no reason why you wouldn't use Leap in Cork.

    Leap doesn't have any fancier features like integrated ticketing anywhere, it may do so in the future but for now it's only improvement on cash is the subsidised discount on certain routes.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,811 ✭✭✭✭ billy the squid


    How come Limerick isn't receiving any of the new fleet?

    Its 308 and 304 services are ridiculously over crowded at times and would benefit from double deckers.

    Last time I spoke to Bus Eireann press office they said they were unwilling to spend a brown ha'penny in Limerick until something was done about traffic congestion in the city.

    The service in Limerick is dispicable. the militant union based in Limerick doesnt help either. 308 throws people off at Chicken Hut before driver drives an empty bus to William Street and there is no buses going into the railway station.

    There definately should be double deck buses on 304 and 308 routes, they do be overcrowded to the point of being dangerous in the mornings.


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