BE Town and City Services

dublinman1990

MOD - Posts moved from other thread

I have just discovered that the new double decker and single city buses for BE which 15 are to go to Cork (11 VWL'S and 4 VWD'S). It is now being reported that they will be up and running in the City from next week.

2 of the buses (VWL 301 & VWD 12) were used for the launch of Cork's Pilot RTPI Service at Grand Parade early this morning.

(Photos of the launch of RTPI in Cork here*): http://www.flickr.com/photos/46691524@N08/6846121207/in/set-72157629246233395

Note*: Photos ^ are not from the official photo shoot.

(Press Release outlining the new service in Cork here):
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/CORK-RTPI-Announcement-Feb-9-2012.pdf

It is also that 3 of the new SE's (6 wheeled Irizar coaches) will be used for BE expressway route 8 Between Dublin and Cork.

There is a possibility that the rest of the older fleet will be used to do other duties in Galway.

bk

One thing I can't understand is why Leap Card isn't being rolled out in Cork?

Cork seems perfect for Leap Card, Cork has a flat fare, so you would only need to tag-on with Leap and no need to interact with the driver.

They should also use double door buses in Cork with people exiting via the rare door.

markpb

bk wrote: »

One thing I can't understand is why Leap Card isn't being rolled out in Cork?

It probably will be but not yet. One city/town at a time

antoobrien

bk wrote: »

One thing I can't understand is why Leap Card isn't being rolled out in Cork?

Cork seems perfect for Leap Card, Cork has a flat fare, so you would only need to tag-on with Leap and no need to interact with the driver.

In fairness I can't understand why it wasn't trialled in the likes of Cork or Galway. Flat fares and a much smaller fleet to fit out (Galway has 9 be routes). It'd have made for lower initial costs.

markpb

antoobrien wrote: »

In fairness I can't understand why it wasn't trialled in the likes of Cork or Galway. Flat fares and a much smaller fleet to fit out (Galway has 9 be routes). It'd have made for lower initial costs.

At risk of pointing out the obvious, it's an integrated ticket. Trialing it in a town or city with only one operator would be close to useless. Trialing it in a fixed fare setup is even less useful.

The only costs you would defer are the upgrade costs for the operator equipment - all the software and system costs will still have to be paid up front. All the operators in Dublin already had equipment of some kind.

antoobrien

markpb wrote: »

At risk of pointing out the obvious, it's an integrated ticket. Trialing it in a town or city with only one operator would be close to useless. Trialing it in a fixed fare setup is even less useful.

DB are effectively using it as a fixed fare system. You have to tell the bus driver where you're going so there's no advantage to using the card for queuing.

Not sure what you're getting at about the integrated thing, afaik IE and Luas systems haven't changed so it's be a matter of getting the right equipment to ensure that they're interoperable - not exactly a massive problem.

markpb

antoobrien wrote: »

Not sure what you're getting at about the integrated thing, afaik IE and Luas systems haven't changed so it's be a matter of getting the right equipment to ensure that they're interoperable - not exactly a massive problem.

Putting stored value on a card for a single operator is trivial, the whole and only point of the Leap project was to allow all the operators to share the same card, to facilitate financial settlement between them and to add extra features like inter-operator capping.

bk

markpb wrote: »

Putting stored value on a card for a single operator is trivial, the whole and only point of the Leap project was to allow all the operators to share the same card, to facilitate financial settlement between them and to add extra features like inter-operator capping.

Unfortunately Leap on Dublin Bus is turning into a complete disaster, with it taking almost twice as long to pay with Leap card as with cash and therefore pushing up dwell and journey times.

Had it first been trialled in Cork, Galway, etc. the benefits of flat fares, no driver interaction could have been seen and perhaps implemented on DB.

Solair

Whatever about Leap, there's no reason why Bus Eireann couldn't implement an off-the-shelf smart card system for Cork and Galway.

The problem isn't integrated ticketing, rather it's slow boarding times caused by endless change-counting.

A simple card solution, similar to the Dublin Bus prepay tickets could have been implemented in Cork years ago.

markpb

bk wrote: »

Had it first been trialled in Cork, Galway, etc. the benefits of flat fares, no driver interaction could have been seen and perhaps implemented on DB.

Again, Leap facilitates the storage of cash and existing operator tickets on a single card. It doesn't change the tickets they sell or how they interact with their customers - that's still entirely in the hands of each operator. Just because BE managed to implement a flat fare and have smartcard with zero driver interaction would have absolutely no impact on DB. They do their own thing (particularly badly) and pay no attention to what goes on in other companies or other cities.

antoobrien

Solair wrote: »

The problem isn't integrated ticketing, rather it's slow boarding times caused by endless change-counting.

It's caused by the fact that you have to tell the driver where you're going (and then they guess the fare), and not tag on/off like in the luas & dart.

Solair

antoobrien wrote: »

It's caused by the fact that you have to tell the driver where you're going (and then they guess the fare), and not tag on/off like in the luas & dart.

In Cork, it's endless change counting that causes the problem. It's actually quite significantly slow at busy stops. The bus can wait up to a good 4 to 5 mins!!

Also, Cork does not have a flat fare system. The 216 to Mountoval has two stages. It costs more to go to the end of the line than it does to Douglas

You've also then got the problem with lack of integration of busses to close-by satellite towns like Carrigaline, Midleton, Blarney, Glanmire, Passagewest/Monkstown etc etc. They don't stop at city bus stops and have a different fare structure.

bk

Solair wrote: »

Whatever about Leap, there's no reason why Bus Eireann couldn't implement an off-the-shelf smart card system for Cork and Galway.

That is exactly what Leap is.

Leap is pretty much off the shelf, RFID, e-purse card. Obviously Cork, Galway, etc. don't need Leaps fancier features like integrated ticketing. But there is no reason why you wouldn't use Leap in Cork.

The ticket machines, RFID cards and RFID readers would be exactly the same in both cases. But with Leap you get the benefit of the already built backend system, wesite, etc.

It would be more expensive for BE to come up with it's own system rather then just use Leap.

Solair

bk wrote: »

That is exactly what Leap is.

Leap is pretty much off the shelf, RFID, e-purse card. Obviously Cork, Galway, etc. don't need Leaps fancier features like integrated ticketing. But there is no reason why you wouldn't use Leap in Cork.

The ticket machines, RFID cards and RFID readers would be exactly the same in both cases. But with Leap you get the benefit of the already built backend system, wesite, etc.

It would be more expensive for BE to come up with it's own system rather then just use Leap.

Well, there is commuter rail in Cork too (Cobh/Midleton/Mallow). So, I suppose you could integrate that into it & probably the park and ride systems.

antoobrien

bk wrote: »

That is exactly what Leap is.

Leap is pretty much off the shelf, RFID, e-purse card. Obviously Cork, Galway, etc. don't need Leaps fancier features like integrated ticketing. But there is no reason why you wouldn't use Leap in Cork.

The ticket machines, RFID cards and RFID readers would be exactly the same in both cases. But with Leap you get the benefit of the already built backend system, wesite, etc.

It would be more expensive for BE to come up with it's own system rather then just use Leap.

Added bonus that the CityDirect (aka the red bus) buses that operate in the west of Galway city could also use such a system (subject to licensing fees etc).

Poxyshamrock

How come Limerick isn't receiving any of the new fleet?

Its 308 and 304 services are ridiculously over crowded at times and would benefit from double deckers.

Ernest

New buses with same dreary old wine-coloured livery. They could learn something from Dublin Bus about how nice bright attractive livery enhances the product and makes travel more appealing.
Really!:)

Solair

They should have proper city branding in Cork, Limerick and Galway.
It's confusing enough that the long-distances busses and busses in major urban areas have the exact same branding!

bk

Solair wrote: »

They should have proper city branding in Cork, Limerick and Galway.
It's confusing enough that the long-distances busses and busses in major urban areas have the exact same branding!

I would go a step further and say that Cork/Galway/Limerick should have their own bus companies which are at least partly owned and controlled by their respective city and county councils.

BE seem to treat the city bus services as an afterthought. These services are frankly awful in comparison with Dublin Bus!!

corktina

I certainly agree there!

Bus provision should be under the control of local councils as a mstter of course, even if BE still provides the actual services. Slightley more accountable to the passengers that way./

antoobrien

bk wrote: »

I would go a step further and say that Cork/Galway/Limerick should have their own bus companies which are at least partly owned and controlled by their respective city and county councils.

Their own companies I'm not sure about, direct control of the routes by the council I'd be in favour of. The NTA currently license the local bus routes as well (which has become clear in Galway with the announcement of new routes in the past few months).

I'd rather see more local control and tendering of the bus routes than having it all done from dublin, it might speed up the process (but then we are talking about Galway city council so it might make things worse).

Are we getting slightly OT with this, should we split it out into it's on thread for proper discussion?

BluntGuy

New thread created, as requested.

If anyone wants a better title, let me know.

hans aus dtschl

bk wrote: »

BE seem to treat the city bus services as an afterthought. These services are frankly awful in comparison with Dublin Bus!!

Because they're a loss maker to them.

antoobrien

BluntGuy wrote: »

New thread created, as requested.

If anyone wants a better title, let me know.

BE use Town/City services to describe it on their website. Since we're not limiting ourselves to just Cork, Limerick or Galway I'd suggest something along the lines of BE Town & City services

antoobrien

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Because they're a loss maker to them.

I'd love to know how a bus route carrying 1m passengers in a year can make a loss

hans aus dtschl

Well I don't actually care either way HOW it makes a loss, anto because I don't work for them, but I'd guess it's something to do with the price of tickets not covering the cost of providing the service.

antoobrien

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Well I don't actually care either way HOW it makes a loss, anto because I don't work for them, but I'd guess it's something to do with the price of tickets not covering the cost of providing the service.

I don't understand how you can claim they're making a loss when the BE results don't mention the regional services at all beyond saying they exist.

Have you any proof that they're losing money are is it just a guess based on the fact that they are part funded by the PSO payments?

AngryLips

bk wrote: »

Unfortunately Leap on Dublin Bus is turning into a complete disaster, with it taking almost twice as long to pay with Leap card as with cash and therefore pushing up dwell and journey times.

Is this just anecdotal? Because speaking from my own experience that is not the case, quite the opposite in fact.

hans aus dtschl

antoobrien wrote: »

I don't understand how you can claim they're making a loss when the BE results don't mention the regional services at all beyond saying they exist.

Have you any proof that they're losing money are is it just a guess based on the fact that they are part funded by the PSO payments?

Are you serious? There's figures all over the place. It's a very transparent company (it would want to be, as it's semi-state). They're entirely reliant on public service obligations payments. And that's normal, for a public service. The deloitte article here goes into what other countries pay in PSO's, furthermore.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=bus%20eireann%20city%20services%20making%20a%20loss&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDcQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.transport.ie%2Fupload%2Fgeneral%2F11393-0.pdf&ei=l8JHT8ybAoWmhAfO6K28Dg&usg=AFQjCNHJxGzkP-MuzbAPYgCwhYmjwxvaaQ


http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=bus%20eireann%20city%20services%20making%20a%20loss&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.buseireann.ie%2Fpdf%2F1307721045-BE-CIE-Report-2010-WEB.pdf&ei=l8JHT8ybAoWmhAfO6K28Dg&usg=AFQjCNH9LMRcoKTpu43TXirfTBf6c-Bt_A

2010
Commercial and schools transport:
Revenue 218,976
Costs (224,233)

Stage Carriage
Revenue 44,370
Costs (71,394)

City
Revenue 22,524
Costs (37,525)

Sub Total
Revenue 66,894
Costs (108,919)

Total
Revenue 285,870
Costs (333,152)

Carawaystick

bk wrote: »

Leap is pretty much off the shelf, RFID, e-purse card. Obviously Cork, Galway, etc. don't need Leaps fancier features like integrated ticketing. But there is no reason why you wouldn't use Leap in Cork.

Leap doesn't have any fancier features like integrated ticketing anywhere, it may do so in the future but for now it's only improvement on cash is the subsidised discount on certain routes.

billy the squid

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

How come Limerick isn't receiving any of the new fleet?

Its 308 and 304 services are ridiculously over crowded at times and would benefit from double deckers.

Last time I spoke to Bus Eireann press office they said they were unwilling to spend a brown ha'penny in Limerick until something was done about traffic congestion in the city.

The service in Limerick is dispicable. the militant union based in Limerick doesnt help either. 308 throws people off at Chicken Hut before driver drives an empty bus to William Street and there is no buses going into the railway station.

There definately should be double deck buses on 304 and 308 routes, they do be overcrowded to the point of being dangerous in the mornings.