Household Charge in Rural Ireland.

Western Pomise

Had a very interesting chat with a non farming neighbour last night....gist of conversation was that Farmers never pay tax (hmmm have heard that one before) but that anecdotal evidence was that more rural than urban dwellers had signed up so far to the 100 euro charge.In fairness the neighbour made a valid point that most Farmers would be known by Govt already...cos of Agri payments....dept farm visits.. etc.I havnt paid it yet but reckon there will be a rush of people paying before the deadline.Whats other rural dwellers views on it?

Farmer Pudsey

Western Pomise wrote: »

Had a very interesting chat with a non farming neighbour last night....gist of conversation was that Farmers never pay tax (hmmm have heard that one before) but that anecdotal evidence was that more rural than urban dwellers had signed up so far to the 100 euro charge.In fairness the neighbour made a valid point that most Farmers would be known by Govt already...cos of Agri payments....dept farm visits.. etc.I havnt paid it yet but reckon there will be a rush of people paying before the deadline.Whats other rural dwellers views on it?

I for one will not be in any hurry paying it. As well as farming I am a PAYE worker. I have heard all that guff about farmers not paying Tax.The reality is that any farmer not paying what he is suppose to is crazy the revnue can trace all farming income through factory, mart, co-op etc payments to you as well as being able to check what cattle wen through your herd from the CMS.

If there was wholesale avoidance in the farming sector the revenue would be going to these payee's to cross check if tax had been paid on the income. The area's where you can avoid tax is if your handleing cash very hard to do in the farming game unless you are selling fruit, veg and spuds direct to the customer ( or a couple of sheep). But if you get a check it is in the system.

Now the reason I am not going to pay the household charge or the septic charge is that in most other country's there household charge are broken down to different area's Waste Collection, sewage, Water and other charges. Most also have very low car tax and no VRT.

Take the septic tank charge the reason they are giving is pollution control the reality is that the waste water treatment plants in urban areas are the biggest polluters and have being for a long time.

Now look at the money wasted on the planning for the Childern's hospital at the Mater site which evey dog on the street knows that it is totally unsuitable except for the people who live in central Dublin.

The reality is that the top rate of tax is 53% we are paying for excessive wages to Judges consultants top civil service managers etc. Their pension are obscene when the max pensionout os the CS should be about 40,000 euro and if you think you need a bigger one you should save for it yourself

Until the government (and they are not at fault for the mess we are in) start to fix all the other issues that the troika indicated I am not going to pay any more new taxes

reilig

Western Pomise wrote: »

Had a very interesting chat with a non farming neighbour last night....gist of conversation was that Farmers never pay tax (hmmm have heard that one before) but that anecdotal evidence was that more rural than urban dwellers had signed up so far to the 100 euro charge.In fairness the neighbour made a valid point that most Farmers would be known by Govt already...cos of Agri payments....dept farm visits.. etc.I havnt paid it yet but reckon there will be a rush of people paying before the deadline.Whats other rural dwellers views on it?

I'm still thinking about it. I'll wait until at least the last day and I'll pay the interest charge beyond that if it takes me longer to justify the payment.

Between farm, off farm job and wife's job our house paid over Eur25k in direct taxes in 2011. We paid for our water. We had to give a huge contribution to the local council in 2007 when we built our house in 2007 (Eur5500) and in our eyes, the local council just squandered it. It turns out that 70% of developers never paid a development levy on any of the estates that they built in this county - nor did the council pursue them for the levy, nor did the council stop them from building until they paid the levy.

Now, in this county, we have the most number of vacant houses per head of population of any county in Ireland. The development levy that I paid before I started building my house was used by my local county council to subsidise the building of services for ghost estates whose builders never bothered to pay the levy and were never called upon to pay it.

So do I not already pay my fair share? I pay a lot more than most urban dwellers. They also want me to start paying a fee for my septic tank? At the time of building my house, the Eur5500 levy was supposed to be for my septic tank. Now they want me to start paying more. Bear in mind that the septic tank cost over 5000 to install.

We're by no means wealthy. Both of us have third level qualifications, both of us are still paying off college loans. We have a substantial mortgage. We have little or no savings. We could have an even better quality of life if we were lived at the expense of the state. Council house/rent allowance + Dole + medical card + allowances costs a lot more than Eur 25k per year. There are a lot of people who have chosen this route, there are a lot more who have been forced this route.

This household charge is just another means to protect the wealthy. Instead of making those who can most afford to pay put their shoulder to the wheel, they are spreading the the burden over everyone whether you can afford to pay it or not.

Don't get me started about agri payments. There is not one farmer in this country who wants agri payments. They are a subsidy to keep food prices low for urban dwellers. If farmers received the cost of production for what they produced, they would not need or want subsidies. It would result in urban dwellers paying higher prices for food. But if it changed their attitude, I'd be happy with that!!!!

bbam

I heard that those who don't pay won't be followed.
However if a house is being sold or transferred through will etc down the road the charge and penalties will need to be cleared first.

I reckon they'll het their pound of flesh no matter what.

Tora Bora

bbam wrote: »

I heard that those who don't pay won't be followed.
However if a house is being sold or transferred through will etc down the road the charge and penalties will need to be cleared first.

I reckon they'll het their pound of flesh no matter what.

What will actually happened, is that within two years, the household charge will be collected through the PAYE system, and or the self assessment system for self employed.

This is not Greece. The taxes and charges will be collected. The troika will give us no other option. Get over it.:D

moy83

Well said reilig

TopTec

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The reality is that any farmer not paying what he is suppose to is crazy the revnue can trace all farming income through factory, mart, co-op etc payments to you as well as being able to check what cattle wen through your herd from the CMS.
If there was wholesale avoidance in the farming sector the revenue would be going to these payee's to cross check if tax had been paid on the income.

I wouldn't worry about that too much. It would take many hours and days for one tax investigator to get the necessary authorities, obtain the invoices from the local Marts and Co-Ops, cross reference all the documents with the local council records to find out who has and hasn't paid either the Household or Sceptic charges.

The tax dept just doesn't have the staff to do that. They may select one in 10,000 for a review of tax paid and part of that might be a check on the domestic charges.

I will not be paying either of the charges for 2 simple reasons. 1. I get no benefit from them, and 2, I cannot afford it.

I get a fella drive along the road outside once a year and he chucks down a shovel full of cold tar in the worst of the potholes. Beyond that nothing.

TT

Tora Bora

TopTec wrote: »

I wouldn't worry about that too much. It would take many hours and days for one tax investigator to get the necessary authorities, obtain the invoices from the local Marts and Co-Ops, cross reference all the documents with the local council records to find out who has and hasn't paid either the Household or Sceptic charges.

The tax dept just doesn't have the staff to do that. They may select one in 10,000 for a review of tax paid and part of that might be a check on the domestic charges.

I will not be paying either of the charges for 2 simple reasons. 1. I get no benefit from them, and 2, I cannot afford it.

I get a fella drive along the road outside once a year and he chucks down a shovel full of cold tar in the worst of the potholes. Beyond that nothing.

TT

I mean everybody will pay this charge, through PAYE or self employed tax sys. Not just the initial refusnicks.
They brought in the universal social charge, in this way. It is far, far, far, more expensive than the household charge. Yet we all pay, because we have no way out of it.
Sensible and smart way for the government to collect the household charge is in the same way.
That way, the Ming Flanagans and his kind don't get to be heroes.

Western Pomise

Just saw on the tinternet that if % of people paying Household charge is low coming up to mid March Govt are considering stiffening up the penalties for non compliance.....we are getting more and more to be a nanny state....but I am coming around to the way of thinking that if a hundred euro contribution helps some poor divil get an ambulance or fire brigade when its needed ya might sleep easier at night if ya paid it:)

mikom

Western Pomise wrote: »

but I am coming around to the way of thinking that if a hundred euro contribution helps some poor divil get an ambulance or fire brigade when its needed ya might sleep easier at night if ya paid it:)

Don't believe the lies.
This charge will be paying for private ambulances and fire brigades in France and Germany............ but not here.

reilig

Western Pomise wrote: »

....but I am coming around to the way of thinking that if a hundred euro contribution helps some poor divil get an ambulance or fire brigade when its needed ya might sleep easier at night if ya paid it:)

Ya, and it could go a long way to paying some poor retired teacher & County Councillor's expenses because its so hard to survive on a state pension and councillors salary.

If our local authorities demonstrated that they weren't going to squander this money, I would gladly pay for it. But you and I both know that none of this €100 is destined to pay for ambulance or fire services. Instead, this €100 is to keep people in cushy numbers!!!

Farmer Pudsey

Western Pomise wrote: »

Just saw on the tinternet that if % of people paying Household charge is low coming up to mid March Govt are considering stiffening up the penalties for non compliance.....we are getting more and more to be a nanny state....but I am coming around to the way of thinking that if a hundred euro contribution helps some poor divil get an ambulance or fire brigade when its needed ya might sleep easier at night if ya paid it:)

The poor old TD's need ink for their printers and it has to be the branded product not any old spurious ink at 10% of the price also we need mony to plan for childern's hospital now that 35 million has been wasted, and all those high ranking CS who need to be moved to europe need a handout.

lakill Farm

i am going to pay the €100 once WH Co co pay me back for the €3200 damage they and there contractors cause to my property in Jan 2010.

Fu8kers.

(Mods im naming and shaming cause i have there written confession that they caused the damage and were going to fix it)

reilig

Lads, remember that this €100 is going to be used to fund local authorities only. It doesn't go into the main government pot. It doesn't go near healthcare. Much of it is earmarked for paying the salaries of local councillors and for to pay for local authorities office costs!!

bbam

Personally I have no real problem with a household tax.. The crux of the problem is that this was rushed in to impress Europe by showing that we were doing something they wanted..
If it were on house size/site value or some other graded system as is the norm in lots of countries I think I'd sign up in a heartbeat.. One size fits all taxes are sloppy and lazy government... Having said that I have a feeling I'll pay up in the hope the system will be amended to a fairer one by next year..

I am also in full appreciation that the €100 is a toe in the door and the final tax will be multiples of that..:(

Bleating Lamb

Western Pomise wrote: »

Had a very interesting chat with a non farming neighbour last night....gist of conversation was that Farmers never pay tax (hmmm have heard that one before) but that anecdotal evidence was that more rural than urban dwellers had signed up so far to the 100 euro charge.In fairness the neighbour made a valid point that most Farmers would be known by Govt already...cos of Agri payments....dept farm visits.. etc.I havnt paid it yet but reckon there will be a rush of people paying before the deadline.Whats other rural dwellers views on it?

I think that you are wrong to think that there will be a big rush of rural people to pay the charge.... why would they when they wont get any real benefit from it.....but I also fear that the Govt will get their act together and bring in a comprehensive property tax for 2013...and will charge anyone who refuses to pay this year retrospectively next year.

Western Pomise

Bit the bullet today and paid the 100 euro.
Everyone has to make up their own mind but I felt that for the sake of the 100 euro I would rather stay on the right side of the law....people forget it is enshrined in the Statute book now.
Of course some people will laugh at my decision but sure that just me:)

red bull

Western Pomise wrote: »

Bit the bullet today and paid the 100 euro.
Everyone has to make up their own mind but I felt that for the sake of the 100 euro I would rather stay on the right side of the law....people forget it is enshrined in the Statute book now.
Of course some people will laugh at my decision but sure that just me:)

No problem with the tax its the law as you said BUT
why do you have to give them your tax number ?
Wheter you have a public water supply or not ?
Are you connected to a public sewer ?
Tax is tax but collecting that other information leaves those who pay vulnernable, septic tank charge and water taxes

theaceofspies

Western Pomise wrote: »

Bit the bullet today and paid the 100 euro.
Everyone has to make up their own mind but I felt that for the sake of the 100 euro I would rather stay on the right side of the law....people forget it is enshrined in the Statute book now.
Of course some people will laugh at my decision but sure that just me:)

It's only €100 this year:D
On the balance of probability you will have a bigger bill next year now that you have signed the contract - they've got you just where they want you

bbam

I think a progressive residential property tax is ok.
Provided it is based on a decent criteria AND ability to pay. Forget about local services, that's a smoke screen excuse.
The tax take isn't enough to run the country. Stable tax revenues are needed so we can remain above a second world standard of living.

Houses don't go away so they are a reliable source of income.

People should be putting efforts into drawing the government out on decent job creation measures and stimulating the economy so we can all afford to pay our way. Such huge efforts into avoiding contributing to the running of our country and then there'll be another thread moaning about school class sizes and hospital closures.

Before canvassing to avoid taxes look around and decide what type of country you want to live in.

Bitten & Hisses

Personally, I have no issue with paying an additional tax provided that it's not effectively flushed down the drain due to local authority inefficiency. Using the household charge to fund local services is not being done effectively when 5 county council employees spend a fair chunk of their day driving around in a crew cab tipper laden down with chips and temporary signs. (and they bring back most of their cargo to the depot later in the day too)

bbam

Bitten & Hisses wrote: »

Personally, I have no issue with paying an additional tax provided that it's not effectively flushed down the drain due to local authority inefficiency. Using the household charge to fund local services is not being done effectively when 5 county council employees spend a fair chunk of their day driving around in a crew cab tipper laden down with chips and temporary signs. (and they bring back most of their cargo to the depot later in the day too)

Fair point.
But is the solution to avoid paying taxes or have a government / councillors that will tackle the problems in the system.
The worrying thing is that I don't really see anyone in public life who if voted in would make a real difference to the levels of waste in the systems. Were in a desperate way for proper governance with nobody able to step in and do the job. Very worrying for our future.

Good loser

I will pay this week and urge everyone one else to do so.

The commercial sector has been paying rates since houses were relieved in 1978 - a disastrous decision in retrospect. The burden on the business sector is now excessive.

Since then the central government have been paying the shortfall in local government revenue (while gradually reducing the percentage).

No modern economy could/should be without a house tax. Taking in about 2% to 5% of all tax revenues.

The question of non payment shouldn't even arise. The attitude of consideringthe payment of taxes optional would be laughed at in serious countries. Many pay £1,000 per annum in NI.

Do TD's take an oath of office and what is it?

20silkcut

Yes but they have a lower rate of vat and car tax in northern Ireland .

Highland

At this stage over 200k have paid the tax (which is amazing given its not due till end of month). I'd bet by the time end of Month arrives the majority will have paid. We live in a democracy - we elect the politicians and they make decisions on our behalf - we can protest if we don't like them but we still have to abide by them - otherwise its a free for all.

Talking about the trioka or Germany etc is just rubbish - we need their money to keep the Country aflloat. This tax will have no material impact on our repayment capacity as it is only going to be 160million and even if it where €1,000 per house it would only bring in 1.6 billion which is a relatively small amount compared to what we now owe IMF, EU etc. etc.

Those who don't pay should be pursued and held accountable, that is the only way that we can operate in a democratic society. I paid for my house, septic tank, water etc etc - but i still have to pay tax, I have a family and my children go to schools, we use hospitals when sick, are secure knowing that the guards are their to protect us etc etc etc. The bottom line is the Government need to collect tax to keep the Countyr functioning. And the Citizens need to pay taxes.

greenpilot

Good loser wrote: »

I will pay this week and urge everyone one else to do so.

The commercial sector has been paying rates since houses were relieved in 1978 - a disastrous decision in retrospect. The burden on the business sector is now excessive.

Since then the central government have been paying the shortfall in local government revenue (while gradually reducing the percentage).

No modern economy could/should be without a house tax. Taking in about 2% to 5% of all tax revenues.

The question of non payment shouldn't even arise. The attitude of consideringthe payment of taxes optional would be laughed at in serious countries. Many pay £1,000 per annum in NI.

Do TD's take an oath of office and what is it?

You paid, eh?....Oh Dear...85% of us havent...

11 days of false propaganda ahead. The head of the "Household Charge Collection Agency," Jackie Maguire has been peddling statistics like there is no tomorrow. She thinks that over 1.4 million households will register before the end of March. Here are some interesting details:

1. Jackie Maguire (JM) says the household charge website activity is up 2 fold
FACT :The site traffic is in decline month on month
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/householdcharge.ie#

alexa is like the TAM or JNLR of web traffic. external audience size
sampling based on browser toolbar user stats.

2. JM says that registrations have seen “significant increase over the last
ten days”
not true

average day rate prior to Feb 20th was 2115
average day rate 20 – 27 Feb was 2937

That is a 0.3 fold increase. which is not significant.

3. JM & morning ireland talk of 1.6M needing to register. but
previously JM said and knows it is 1.8M
so they are not 1.4M off the total they are 1.66M off

4. JM says general trend is upward. true. but it only amounts to 30%
increase on extremely flat figures.
if there was a 1000% increase (ten fold) from now to March 31st then
there would still be 700,000 not registered.
And right now they have a 30% increase.

Projected non registered at current rate is 1,596,562 source
http://cahwt.net/calc/

***

Don't give into the FG-Labour hype and propaganda. You saw where that got you in the last election.

Special exemptions to pay advisers €150,000 a year, Ruairi Quinn fiddling his mileage expenses, James Reilly paying €604 on coffee machines for his offic as outlined here:

James Reilly spent €624 of taxpayers’ money on two deluxe Bewley’s coffee machines — one for each of his offices. One has been installed in his office in the health department at Hawkins House while the other sits in his Leinster House rooms.

His spokesman said the minister needed the machines because he worked long hours and the Dáil restaurant and department canteen were not always open.

* He has received tax breaks for maintaining his 13-bed family mansion in Co Offaly. He received tax breaks for six years running to help pay for renovations to the three-storey Laughton House, which is surrounded by 150 acres of farm and woodland.

Oh and by the way, the chairman of the RTÉ board is Tom Savage. Tom who is married to Terry Prone and is Anton Savage of Today FM's Dad is also a director of "The Communications Clinic."

"So what" you might say.

Well, here's what:

James Reilly, the health minister, paid a public relations company €15,000 for advice on health reform as well as for speech writing advice, his office confirmed.

He paid the money last year to the Communications Clinic, whose directors are PR consultant Terry Prone and Tom Savage, the chairman of the RTÉ board.


**

I wonder if the Chairman of the board of RTÉ worries about whether or not a customer of his is criticised on RTÉ programmes?

I wonder if Terry Prone is nervous of criticising a valued customer of hers in her columns in the Examiner or when she is giving her expert opinion on various RTÉ programmes?

Vote NO to the household charge and stop funding this casino.