Girlfriend driving car with British plates

cmssjone

Hi all,

Not sure if this is the correct forum to post this so apologies if I'm in the wrong place. I am over in Ireland, working on a temp contract and have brought my British car with me. My Irish girlfriend is a little worried that if she gets stopped by the Gardai that the car can be seized. She is fully insured etc with my British insurance company and I have left a copy of this in the glovebox should she ever be stopped. Can anyone let clarify what is likely to happen if she is stopped?

Thanks in advance for your replies

CiniO

cmssjone wrote: »

Hi all,

Not sure if this is the correct forum to post this so apologies if I'm in the wrong place. I am over in Ireland, working on a temp contract and have brought my British car with me. My Irish girlfriend is a little worried that if she gets stopped by the Gardai that the car can be seized. She is fully insured etc with my British insurance company and I have left a copy of this in the glovebox should she ever be stopped. Can anyone let clarify what is likely to happen if she is stopped?

Thanks in advance for your replies

You are most likely right that she is not allowed to drive your UK registered car here.

no1beemerfan

Does your GF live in the UK or Ireland? If she lives in the UK and came back to Ireland to be with you while you do the contract I'd say she'll be ok but if she lives in Ireland and you have her insured on your car for her to drive while she is in the UK, then I doubt she can drive it here, though I could be wrong.

cmssjone

CiniO wrote: »

You are most likely right that she is not allowed to drive your UK registered car here.

I believe that she is though. She is insured on my British policy as a named driver and we are allowed (according to the policy) to drive in the EU for a total of 90 days at a Third Party only level.

She is worried that the Gardai just will not believe that the car is not registered to her and seize it anyway. Has this happened to anyone else?

Mena

Insurance isn't your primary concern, it's the VRT rules.

CiniO

cmssjone wrote: »

I believe that she is though. She is insured on my British policy as a named driver and we are allowed (according to the policy) to drive in the EU for a total of 90 days at a Third Party only level.

That doesn't sound right either.
Under EU regulations, your UK insurer is not allowed to limit a time of your third party cover abroad.
In other words, your third party cover should be valid as long, as your policy is valid.
They can limit however any additional cover.

Maybe it's like you have unlimited third party cover, and fire, theft and own car accidental damage cover limited to 90 days?

She is worried that the Gardai just will not believe that the car is not registered to her and seize it anyway. Has this happened to anyone else?

It doesn't really matter to who the car is registered.
If she is resident of ROI, she is not allowed to drive a foreign registered vehicle.
I reckon they can seize the car if she is stopped.

Marcusm

cmssjone wrote: »

I believe that she is though. She is insured on my British policy as a named driver and we are allowed (according to the policy) to drive in the EU for a total of 90 days at a Third Party only level.

She is worried that the Gardai just will not believe that the car is not registered to her and seize it anyway. Has this happened to anyone else?

A foreign registered car needs to have the VLC (V5C in UK) in it while being driven overseas. That should be ample proof.

CiniO

Marcusm wrote: »

A foreign registered car needs to have the VLC (V5C in UK) in it while being driven overseas. That should be ample proof.

That's true, but it doesn't change anything. She is still not allowed to drive it, if she is Irish resident, no matter to who the car belongs to.

whippet

CiniO is correct .. your girlfriend due to her residency in Ireland is not legally allowed to drive your car.

Should she be stopped the car may or may not be seized depending on who stops you.

vetstu

.

Marcusm

CiniO wrote: »

That's true, but it doesn't change anything. She is still not allowed to drive it, if she is Irish resident, no matter to who the car belongs to.

Actually that jeopardises his temporary relief from VRT (reg 5(1)(c) SI 60/1993) rather than a prohibition on her driving it, ie that's not an RTA offence for her.

stealthyspeeder

vetstu wrote: »

If you are stopped don't say you are working here because they may say you are resident here then.

Thats stupid, if you are working here say you are working here. Your country of work and residency can be different and the VRT law recognizes that.

Marcusm

vetstu wrote: »

If you are stopped don't say you are working here because they may say you are resident here then.

The law exPlicitly makes provision for people who have come to Ireland to work temporarily; the exemption applies for 12 months provided they intend not to remain in Ireland indefinitely.

Henry Ford III

CiniO wrote: »

...Under EU regulations, your UK insurer is not allowed to limit a time of your third party cover abroad....

You 100% sure about that? If it were correct why would anyone buy overpriced insurance here?

dharn

Dont think insurance is much cheaper in uk

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

You 100% sure about that? If it were correct why would anyone buy overpriced insurance here?

You mean that Irish people resident in Ireland would insure their Irish registered cars with UK insurers?
That can't go on, as no UK insurer would go for it.

CiniO

Marcusm wrote: »

Actually that jeopardises his temporary relief from VRT (reg 5(1)(c) SI 60/1993) rather than a prohibition on her driving it, ie that's not an RTA offence for her.

Thanks for that SI.

It's definitely not RTA offence for her.
But are you sure that she is not liable to any fines, if she is stopped driving foreign car?

Marcusm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

You 100% sure about that? If it were correct why would anyone buy overpriced insurance here?

It is correct and is in the EU Motor Insurance Directive. However, if you move your residence, the policy is likely to require you to notify your insurer who may choose not to requote next time around. If you give false details, you may have to reimburse the insurer for any claims it pas out.

Marcusm

CiniO wrote: »

Thanks for that SI.

It's definitely not RTA offence for her.
But are you sure that she is not liable to any fines, if she is stopped driving foreign car?

Can't be definitive without more research but I can't imagine there are any. The primary responsibility for VRT rests with the importer. Open to correction though. It's still not a good idea for her to drive it but I have to confess to letting friends/family have a drive in my cars when I'm in Ireland. Wouldn't make it a regular thing.

Henry Ford III

Henry Ford III wrote: »

You 100% sure about that? If it were correct why would anyone buy overpriced insurance here?

I found insurance in the UK quite a bit more expensive than here when I spent a while living there.

CiniO

Marcusm wrote: »

It is correct and is in the EU Motor Insurance Directive. However, if you move your residence, the policy is likely to require you to notify your insurer who may choose not to requote next time around. If you give false details, you may have to reimburse the insurer for any claims it pas out.

Here's some more details:

http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/insurance/motor_en.htm

All compulsory motor insurance policies should cover, on the basis of a single premium and during the whole term of the contract, the entire territory of the Union, including for any period in which the vehicle remains in other Member States during the term of the contract. Please note, however, that the Directive does not regulate the so-called comprehensive cover (cover for one's own physical damage, material damage to one's own vehicle and vehicle theft, amongst others).

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

You 100% sure about that? If it were correct why would anyone buy overpriced insurance here?

Here's actually the link which should explain everything and confirm that I'm 100% sure
http://www.monetos.co.uk/insurance/car-insurance/cover/abroad/

keithclancy

Why not just ring Customs and find out ?

vetstu

cmssjone wrote: »

Hi all,

My Irish girlfriend is a little worried that if she gets stopped by the Gardai that the car can be seized. She is fully insured etc with my British insurance company and I have left a copy of this in the glovebox should she ever be stopped. Can anyone let clarify what is likely to happen if she is stopped?

Thanks in advance for your replies

From: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/leaflets/temporary-exemption-foreign-registered.html

"The vehicle may not in any circumstances be driven by a State Resident"

CiniO

vetstu wrote: »

From: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/leaflets/temporary-exemption-foreign-registered.html

"The vehicle may not in any circumstances be driven by a State Resident"

This sentence is highly untrue, as there are many circumstances where State Resident may drive a foreign registered car.

corktina

Phoebe Powerful Hunter wrote: »

I found insurance in the UK quite a bit more expensive than here when I spent a while living there.

no its isnt. I got Insurance on my Escort that I owned there for a year for use during visits and it cost a fraction of what it would here. £90 if I remember rightly.

mgbgt1978

The above rule only applies to Vehicles which are owned by, or registered to, a person who is not resident in the state.
In other words if the OP's girlfriend is an irish resident (with an irish driving licence) then she is not allowed to drive this car in Ireland.

galwaytt

CiniO wrote: »

vetstu wrote: »

From: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/leaflets/temporary-exemption-foreign-registered.html

"The vehicle may not in any circumstances be driven by a State Resident"

This sentence is highly untrue, as there are many circumstances where State Resident may drive a foreign registered car.

Ok, lets hear what they are, as I can't think of one.....

OP, your girlfriend may be Irish, but you need to clarify if she's resident here. Thats the issue, not her nationality.......for instance, is she was...Polish, but resident here, she still couldn't drive it.......

ardmacha

Ok, lets hear what they are, as I can't think of one.....

People in the motor trade could drive a foreign car to a garage for repair or you could hire a chauffeur. You would probably be OK if someone was drunk and you drove them home. In these cases they are driving it on your behalf not their own, as your agents if you like.

People resident in the State cannot drive a car registered outside the State for their own use.

If the OPs girlfriend is resident, than she cannot generally drive the car.
The revenue might well seize it.

Anan1

ardmacha wrote: »

People in the motor trade could drive a foreign car to a garage for repair or you could hire a chauffeur. You would probably be OK if someone was drunk and you drove them home. In these cases they are driving it on your behalf not their own, as your agents if you like.

People resident in the State cannot drive a car registered outside the State for their own use.

Any chance of a link to a source for these exemptions?

ardmacha

Any chance of a link to a source for these exemptions?

Reasonable question.

Vrt.ie states
"A State resident who is an employee of a car-hire firm established outside the State is allowed to drive a vehicle for the purpose of returning it to the firm after the vehicle was left in the State on expiry of a hire contract."

but does not mention the motor trade.

The EU directive states

Temporary importation of private vehicles for business use

1. A private vehicle imported temporarily for business use shall be exempt from the taxes specified in Article 1, provided that: (a) the individual importing the private vehicle: (aa) has his normal residence in a Member State other than the Member State of temporary importation;

(bb) does not use the vehicle within the Member State of temporary importation in order to carry passengers for hire or material reward of any kind, or for the industrial and/or commercial transport of goods, whether for reward or not;

(b) the private vehicle is not disposed of, hired out or lent in the Member State of temporary importation;

(c) the private vehicle has been acquired or imported in accordance with the general conditions of taxation in force on the domestic market of the Member State of normal residence of the user and is not subject by reason of its exportation to any exemption from or refund of turnover tax, excise duty or any other consumption tax.

I am not a lawyer nor have I enormous knowledge of the subject. But I doubt if a member state can levy VRT because the car breaks down and a repair man sits in it or drives it around the block to test it. Otherwise it would depend on what was meant by "lent". I think the chauffeur example has been mentioned in the past, but I cannot quite cite it now. This would be a case where the car was not lent, it was being used by you, just not driven by you. The drunk driving is an extension of this logic.

galwaytt

ardmacha wrote: »

Ok, lets hear what they are, as I can't think of one.....

People in the motor trade could drive a foreign car to a garage for repair or you could hire a chauffeur. You would probably be OK if someone was drunk and you drove them home. In these cases they are driving it on your behalf not their own, as your agents if you like.

People resident in the State cannot drive a car registered outside the State for their own use.

If the OPs girlfriend is resident, than she cannot generally drive the car.
The revenue might well seize it.

The garage, maybe. The chauffeur would have to be non-resident as well, though !

cmssjone

galwaytt wrote: »

Ok, lets hear what they are, as I can't think of one.....

OP, your girlfriend may be Irish, but you need to clarify if she's resident here. Thats the issue, not her nationality.......for instance, is she was...Polish, but resident here, she still couldn't drive it.......

Hi sorry all but been out for the evening. I never thought that this question would generate so many opinions. To answer the question, my girlfriend is Irish, is resident and has an Irish license. Don't really want to go down the VRT route as I may have to go back to the UK again in the near future which means changing regs over again.

cmssjone

ardmacha wrote: »

Reasonable question.

Vrt.ie states
"A State resident who is an employee of a car-hire firm established outside the State is allowed to drive a vehicle for the purpose of returning it to the firm after the vehicle was left in the State on expiry of a hire contract."

but does not mention the motor trade.

The EU directive states

Temporary importation of private vehicles for business use

1. A private vehicle imported temporarily for business use shall be exempt from the taxes specified in Article 1, provided that: (a) the individual importing the private vehicle: (aa) has his normal residence in a Member State other than the Member State of temporary importation;

(bb) does not use the vehicle within the Member State of temporary importation in order to carry passengers for hire or material reward of any kind, or for the industrial and/or commercial transport of goods, whether for reward or not;

(b) the private vehicle is not disposed of, hired out or lent in the Member State of temporary importation;

(c) the private vehicle has been acquired or imported in accordance with the general conditions of taxation in force on the domestic market of the Member State of normal residence of the user and is not subject by reason of its exportation to any exemption from or refund of turnover tax, excise duty or any other consumption tax.

I am not a lawyer nor have I enormous knowledge of the subject. But I doubt if a member state can levy VRT because the car breaks down and a repair man sits in it or drives it around the block to test it. Otherwise it would depend on what was meant by "lent". I think the chauffeur example has been mentioned in the past, but I cannot quite cite it now. This would be a case where the car was not lent, it was being used by you, just not driven by you. The drunk driving is an extension of this logic.

This might be a silly question but m I actually lending the car if she is a named driver?

ardmacha

I never thought that this question would generate so many opinions. To answer the question, my girlfriend is Irish, is resident and has an Irish license.

There is no difference in opinion on the main issue, only on largely irrelevant details.

This might be a silly question but m I actually lending the car if she is a named driver?

Insurance has nothing to do with it. You might argue that you haven't lent the car if you are in the car and you were just sharing driving on a long trip or something. Your girlfriend cannot drive your car alone, in general.

CiniO

Marcusm wrote: »

Can't be definitive without more research but I can't imagine there are any. The primary responsibility for VRT rests with the importer. Open to correction though. It's still not a good idea for her to drive it but I have to confess to letting friends/family have a drive in my cars when I'm in Ireland. Wouldn't make it a regular thing.

Here's what I've found

(3) It shall be an offence under this subsection for a person, in respect of a vehicle in the State—

(a) to be in possession of the vehicle if it is unregistered unless he is an authorised person or the vehicle is the subject of an exemption under section 135 for the time being in force and the vehicle is being used in accordance with any conditions, restrictions or limitations referred to in section 135 ,

That's all from Finance Ac 1992 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1992/en/act/pub/0009/sec0139.html#sec139

Section 135 pretty much descried the exemption from obligation to register foreign vehicle in the state.

So generally speaking if OP's girlfriend is driving a vehicle on her own (she is in possession of the vehicle) she is guilty of an offence.

The same as you mentioned above in that case, OP's permission to use a foreign vehicle in the state is under question, as he is braking the condition under which this permission was granted.

CiniO

galwaytt wrote: »

Ok, lets hear what they are, as I can't think of one.....

Here's one:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/si/0060.html

5. (1) The exemption under section 135 (a) of the Act shall be granted for a period not exceeding 12 months from the date upon which the vehicle concerned was brought into the State or such longer period as the Commissioners in their discretion may allow in any particular case, if the vehicle—

(...)

( c ) whilst in the State, is not driven by a person established in the State save with the permission of the Commissioners.

If you have a permission from the Commissioners, you are ok to drive a foreign vehicle even if you are resident in Ireland.

Marcusm

CiniO wrote: »

Here's what I've found


That's all from Finance Ac 1992 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1992/en/act/pub/0009/sec0139.html#sec139

Section 135 pretty much descried the exemption from obligation to register foreign vehicle in the state.

So generally speaking if OP's girlfriend is driving a vehicle on her own (she is in possession of the vehicle) she is guilty of an offence.

The same as you mentioned above in that case, OP's permission to use a foreign vehicle in the state is under question, as he is braking the condition under which this permission was granted.

CiniO

That's a nice piece of research and it is important to note that at this stage you are dealing with revenue offences. FA 1992 must be read in conjunction with the regulations made under it which would include (most importantly this case), SI 60 of 1993 as I mentioned above.

The OP is entitled to an exemption from VRT provided he imports the car temporarily and keeps it in accordance with the relevant law (which incorporates the language cited by Ardmacha from the origin of the exemption, the relevant EU directive).

In the OP's case, the question will be whether he has "lent" the car to his girlfriend. There are many rules of construction which must be applied beginning with a plain reading of the words in context. In this context, "lent" must be construed coherently with "disposed of" and "hired". There is a degree of exclusivity of use with respect to those terms which, it is strongly arguable, that "lent" must mean more than a casual short term use with permission.

E.g. it is arguable that if his girlfriend were to drive his foreign reg'd car to the corner shop because he had blocked her car in, such use might not have the durability to equate to "lent" as used in this context. I think this is an approacpriate construction in the schem of the VRT legislation which is designed to ensure that cars used generally by Irish residents are subject to the tax.

Use by a chauffeur or the girlfriend driving him home after a skinful or even sharing diving duties on a long rive would not in my mind give rise to a situation where the car is lent - particularly as the OP would retain control which is not the case when something is lent.

However, in the circumstances where the OP has included his girfriend as an additional insured on his policy, I think strong arguments could be advanced that he has an agreement with her that the car is "lent" to her from time to time. I.e. he should be careful.

(Before anyone tears me apart, it might be worthwhile stating that I have earned my living for 20 years from analysing, construing and applying tax law.)

slimjimmc

Either way the guys/gals of Customs at the side of the road are not going to argue over "exclusivity of use" or "lent", or any other term. All they'll see is foreign reg car driven by an Irish resident and that's all they need to justify hauling your car back to the compound. You'll have to sort the mess out later.

Is it worth the hassle?

corktina

corktina wrote: »

no its isnt. I got Insurance on my Escort that I owned there for a year for use during visits and it cost a fraction of what it would here. £90 if I remember rightly.

It varies for different people I'm sure but the cheapest I could get was over £100 more than I was paying in Ireland at the time and the policy wasn't as good, no driving other cars for instance. To get similar cover I would have been paying north of £200 more than in Ireland.

Pique

slimjimmc wrote: »

Either way the guys/gals of Customs at the side of the road are not going to argue over "exclusivity of use" or "lent", or any other term. All they'll see is foreign reg car driven by an Irish resident and that's all they need to justify hauling your car back to the compound. You'll have to sort the mess out later.

Is it worth the hassle?

This may be a dumb question, but can they seize the car from someone who isn't the owner?
I heard a story a few years back saying that they couldn't, but that was probably an urban myth.

getz

Phoebe Powerful Hunter wrote: »

It varies for different people I'm sure but the cheapest I could get was over £100 more than I was paying in Ireland at the time and the policy wasn't as good, no driving other cars for instance. To get similar cover I would have been paying north of £200 more than in Ireland.

this may clear it up,according to Q4 insurance,car insurance in northern ireland is more expensive than the republic,but because in the republic of ireland levels of compensation awarded and solicitors fees are often considerably higher than the UK,this being ,citizens of the republic pay typically higher premiums,so yes car insurance is more expensive than england scotland and wales