Cyclists around UL

MarkR

Came across an odd one today. I was driving back to work, coming up from the groody rounabout. Around here.

http://g.co/maps/rrmrk

Met a cyclist going against the flow of cars. Not the fist time I've seen this, but this time the cycle lane is cross by vehicular traffic. So the guy and his bike could easily wind up as a gory hood ornament. And I think they are doing some kind of road safety week around the college.

I beeped the guy, and he just made a face and thumbs upped me.

galwaycyclist

MarkR wrote: »

Came across an odd one today. I was driving back to work, coming up from the groody rounabout. Around here.

http://g.co/maps/rrmrk

Met a cyclist going against the flow of cars. Not the fist time I've seen this, but this time the cycle lane is cross by vehicular traffic. So the guy and his bike could easily wind up as a gory hood ornament. And I think they are doing some kind of road safety week around the college.

I beeped the guy, and he just made a face and thumbs upped me.

This is one of the more dangerous things you can do on a bicycle and is associated with up to 11 fold increases in the risk of collision with cars at side roads (where most collisions already happen).

leakyboots

Are cycle lanes not bi-directional though? Open to correction on that

Edit: Also, why do people recommend you walk against the flow of traffic if there is no path but not cycle?

ShatterProof

leakyboots wrote: »

Are cycle lanes not bi-directional though? Open to correction on that

Dont know

leakyboots wrote: »

Edit: Also, why do people recommend you walk against the flow of traffic if there is no path but not cycle?

So that you can see whats coming (rather it coming from behind you and running you over)

galwaycyclist

leakyboots wrote: »

Are cycle lanes not bi-directional though? Open to correction on that

Edit: Also, why do people recommend you walk against the flow of traffic if there is no path but not cycle?

Uh no cycle lanes marked on a road should most definitely not be bidirectional the normal rules of traffic should apply.

When walking, facing oncoming traffic gives you a chance to get out of the way if a car is not reacting to your presence. Also if walking you can normally be on the road edge.

A cyclist can't really just stop and step in or flatten themselves against the wall. Also it is also not feasible to cycle in the gutter. The gutter is where the surface is usually worst and where glass bottles go when they die. Cycling on the wrong side of the road puts you on a collision course while simultaneously reducing the reaction time available to both the cyclist and oncoming motorists.

Motorists turning out of or into side roads, have a fairly set observation pattern eg "right - left - right again". They are not attuned to looking for a two-wheeled vehicle coming on the wrong side of the road from the "wrong" direction at speeds of 30km/h.

LB6

AFAIK - if the cycle lane is just wide enough for one, it's to be used with the direction of the flow of traffic on whatever side of the road it is on.

There are such things as bi-directional cycle paths, ie. red path with white broke lines down the middle. However, there are none of those in Limerick.

galwaycyclist

LB6 wrote: »

AFAIK - if the cycle lane is just wide enough for one, it's to be used with the direction of the flow of traffic on whatever side of the road it is on.

There are such things as bi-directional cycle paths, ie. red path with white broke lines down the middle. However, there are none of those in Limerick.

Hmm uh yes but not quite. This raises a different issue. Cycle lanes that are less than 2m wide result in a situation where cyclists get less clearance from passing motorists than if there was nothing at all. Motorists now drive with reference to the lane marking rather than with reference to the cyclist who may need to swerve around gullies etc.

Also approaching and passing side roads, cyclists need to be located where they are in the observation zone of entering or leaving motorists.

A cycle lane that is just "wide enough" for one cyclist is likely to be more dangerous for the cyclists than if there was nothing marked at all. In such circumstances, cyclists would need to consider wether they might be safer staying out of the cycle lane. This would be the standard safe cycling advice.

CiaranMT

I'd love to know how he managed to cycle up that lane. You didnt see where he was coming from OP? Did he come from the Milford side, out from UL or from Plassey village. Clearly he was a bit lost or quite headless.

I cycle around campus and into town myself and I'd often go against traffic, but only on the raised cycle lanes like here: http://g.co/maps/s4qzf

Itsdacraic

Stupid cyclists

Red Neck Hughie

MarkR wrote: »

Came across an odd one today. I was driving back to work, coming up from the groody rounabout. Around here.

http://g.co/maps/rrmrk

Met a cyclist going against the flow of cars. Not the fist time I've seen this, but this time the cycle lane is cross by vehicular traffic. So the guy and his bike could easily wind up as a gory hood ornament. And I think they are doing some kind of road safety week around the college.

I beeped the guy, and he just made a face and thumbs upped me.

I don't really see the issue there at the park hotel, down at UL though might be interesting if he was heading for town on the wrong side. He'd need to time it well. Being on the right side of the road is far from a guarantee that cars will even pretend to see you on a bike.
Bigger issue for me would be meeting him as a cyclist and being forced into traffic. (Wouldn't worry me too much in the car or on the motorbike I think)

Galwaycyclist: any chance of a link to those statistics please.

MarkR

CiaranMT wrote: »

I'd love to know how he managed to cycle up that lane. You didnt see where he was coming from OP?

He came down at least from Milford. Only spotted him then.

Red Neck Hughie wrote: »

I don't really see the issue there at the park hotel, down at UL though might be interesting if he was heading for town on the wrong side. He'd need to time it well. Being on the right side of the road is far from a guarantee that cars will even pretend to see you on a bike.
Bigger issue for me would be meeting him as a cyclist and being forced into traffic. (Wouldn't worry me too much in the car or on the motorbike I think)

Galwaycyclist: any chance of a link to those statistics please.

Only reason I took issue was that traffic crosses that cycle lane just there. If someone wasn't paying attention he could have been peeled off a bonnet.

CiaranMT

MarkR wrote: »

He came down at least from Milford. Only spotted him then.


Only reason I took issue was that traffic crosses that cycle lane just there. If someone wasn't paying attention he could have been peeled off a bonnet.

In that case he's just a negligent fool. That's a ridiculously stupid thing to be pulling off.

Raiser

MarkR wrote: »

I beeped the guy, and he just made a face and thumbs upped me.

My advice would be to steer well clear of him, he sounds like a total cyclepath.



Sorry

- On topic though good old Darwinism should sort this out in a generation or two......

Jumpy

I think I know the reasons, and I dont even live in Limerick anymore.

Main reason = Groody Roundabout.

Uphill and stopping on the inside turn lane is dangerous as hell, especially taking off from said lane as the acceleration of a bike uphill is rather slow in comparison to oncoming traffic from the Parkway.

Secondary Reason = No bike lane on opposite side of the road. The only bike lane is on the UL/ALDI side.

Personally I wouldnt even use the bike lanes as they are one of the Irish governments more dangerous ideas. But for someone who wishes to stick to them, UL side is really the only option.

If they have finally put pedestrian crossings then maybe they could use that, but otherwise ...

CiaranMT

I'm not sure if you've got the right road here...

galwaycyclist

Red Neck Hughie wrote: »

Galwaycyclist: any chance of a link to those statistics please.

Ok rather than jump straight into statistics on cycle lanes/paths its better to start from first principles.

Most collisions, including car/bicycle, collisions happen at junctions.

The patterns in this diagram are taken from this paper: Layout and Design Factors Affecting Cycle Safety at T-Junctions, Henson R. and Whelan N., Traffic Engineering and Control, October 1992



If we look at the top three situations involving failure to yield by turning motorists, we have

1) Motor driver pull out from near side. 30%
2) Motor driver turns across path of cyclist from offside. 12%
3) Motor driver overtakes cyclist and turns into nearside junction. 6.5%

In terms of avoiding these types of collision, the recomended advice for cyclists is to adopt a prominent road position in the vicinity of this type of junction. (Having first had regard for the nature and speed of following traffic.) If traffic conditions allow, you want to be out where the motorists are looking.

We can infer from these crash types that, for the cyclist, staying too far to the left might put them at increased risk. Therefore road features that encourage cyclists to keep too far left (cycle lanes) or which take cyclists completely out of the "zone of attention" of other drivers (roadside cycle paths) might tend to increase the likelihood of such collisions occurring.

galwaycyclist

Ok the following graphic has been put together from these sources.

• Sweden: Leif Linderholm: Signalreglerade korsningars funktion och olycksrisk för oskyddade trafikanter - Delrapport 1: Cyklister. Institutionen för trafikteknik, LTH: Bulletin 55, Lund 1984, In: »Russian Roulette« turns spotlight of criticism on cycleways, Proceedings of conference »Sicherheit rund ums Radfahren«, Vienna 1991.
• USA: A. Wachtel and D. Lewiston: Risk factors for bicycle-motor vehicle collisions at intersections, Journal of the Institute of Transportation Engineers, pp 30-35, September, 1994.
• Denmark: S.U. Jensen, K.V. Andersen and E.D. Nielsen: Junctions and Cyclists, Velo-city ‘97 Barcelona, Spain .
• Finland: M Rasanen and H. Summala: The safety effect of sight obstacles and road markings at bicycle crossings, Traffic Engineering and Control, pp 98-101, February, 1998.

It is not intended to be indicative of any particular design although all the figures relate to footpath/footway roadside cycle-path type structures. (Cycle lanes marked on the carriageway appear to be less conflict prone - but still a source of increased risk at junctions) It is the findings like this that are behind the use of differentiated surface colours at crossing points -red,blue,green etc. This was the original purpose of such treatments: to highlight the conflict points at the crossings - not as a general treatment. In countries like the Netherlands, you will also see so called "elephants footprints" or "sharks teeth" road markings, which further highlight the crossing area. The crossing area may also be built up into a speed ramp.

To get back to the OPs original post. The collision rates are substantially higher for cyclists cycling on the wrong side of the road. Motorists are simply not acclimatised to looking for cyclists coming from that quadrant.

The Snipe

On the topic of cycle lanes, runners in them on road side, I was on one a few weeks ago around the corner from extravision comming across by the highway bar, and there was a pedestrian in my way with headphones in reluctant to move and I couldn't go onto the proper road due to the cars. Isn't that what footpaths are for like?

MarkR

So, cyclist annoyed by another user on road. The irony!

Just kidding. Actually, I wonder is it legal to run on the road. Particularly with headphones, that can't be very safe. I think where a foot path is provided, a pedestrian must walk on that. Failing that, they would have to run facing the traffic?

bonnieprince

LB6 wrote: »

AFAIK - if the cycle lane is just wide enough for one, it's to be used with the direction of the flow of traffic on whatever side of the road it is on.

There are such things as bi-directional cycle paths, ie. red path with white broke lines down the middle. However, there are none of those in Limerick.

There is one on the hill up from Aldi on the Dublin Road, or rather on the old Dublin Road. It lasts a whole 50 metres!!:D

Birdie086

bonnieprince wrote: »

There is one on the hill up from Aldi on the Dublin Road, or rather on the old Dublin Road. It lasts a whole 50 metres!!:D

I am don't cycle but live on that side of town and know the area, and talk about starting and ending in no mans land!!!!

bonnieprince

I think they ran out of red tarmac to finish the rest of the hill

CiaranMT

Bit ridiculous, that.

Cycle it every day going to work and I have the choice of heading up the footpath to the top of the hill, or crossing over for a gap of less than 100m.

Red Neck Hughie

bonnieprince wrote: »

There is one on the hill up from Aldi on the Dublin Road, or rather on the old Dublin Road. It lasts a whole 50 metres!!:D

It lasts 50+ metres until it crosses the road at Aldi, passes the hotel - runs to UL technology park, then to Castletroy college, then probably will link to the new cycle lane heading for Nenagh if it doesn't already,
Its possibly part of the longest (2 way all the way also) cycle lane I've ever seen.

Red Neck Hughie

Galwaycyclist, excellent reply - thanks very much.
obviously the 2nd graphic is close to what the op highlighted except that maybe 500m before getting there the cyclist would have been in a cyclelane between two lanes of traffic where one lane allows cars straight on and the other allows them turn left (from a dedicated left lane - so they keep up speed more than usual ), a dodgy situation alright.

geansaiglas

MarkR wrote: »

Met a cyclist going against the flow of cars. Not the fist time I've seen this, but this time the cycle lane is cross by vehicular traffic. So the guy and his bike could easily wind up as a gory hood ornament. And I think they are doing some kind of road safety week around the college.

The cycle lane that you're talking about (where the lane is bordered by dotted lines and comes right out into the middle of the road) is for cyclists who are coming from Groody roundabout and continuing straight on up to Milford. It is monodirectional.

It's insane to even think about cycling the wrong way along this.

leakyboots wrote: »

Are cycle lanes not bi-directional though? Open to correction on that

Red Neck Hughie wrote: »

It lasts 50+ metres until it crosses the road at Aldi, passes the hotel - runs to UL technology park, then to Castletroy college, then probably will link to the new cycle lane heading for Nenagh if it doesn't already,
Its possibly part of the longest (2 way all the way also) cycle lane I've ever seen.

Bi-directional cycle lanes are wider, have a dotted line down the middle and show a painted bicycle on the ground on either side facing the respective directions. They should be treated by cyclists as cars treat roads.

The cycle lanes from groody to UL and beyond (and the majority of cycle lanes in Castletroy) are mono-directional, though an awful lot of casual cyclists don't seem to be aware of this.

The only dual cycle lane in Castletroy is the one that goes from Groody roundabout towards the city that passes Maxol, Aldi and stops at Parkway (Though there is a 50m break after Aldi, where Limerick County ends and Limerick City begins).

LB6 wrote: »

There are such things as bi-directional cycle paths, ie. red path with white broke lines down the middle. However, there are none of those in Limerick.

There are. The one mentioned above: from Groody roundabout to Parkway roundabout and Childer's Road are a couple I use regularly.

Jumpy wrote: »

Personally I wouldnt even use the bike lanes as they are one of the Irish governments more dangerous ideas. But for someone who wishes to stick to them, UL side is really the only option.

If they have finally put pedestrian crossings then maybe they could use that, but otherwise ...

Cycle lanes are a great idea, provided that they are designed and built properly. Unfortunately for us, Limerick City and County councils have been more or less completely ignorant of the issues up to now.

As Galwaycyclist shows, the most dangerous part of cycling is at junctions, and here cyclists are almost completely ignored in Limerick. At Groody roundabout, cyclists turning are expected to dismount and walk across the pedestrian crossing, likewise at Parkway.

Funnily enough, Shannon town has rather good cycling infrastructure in most places, even allowing for a lane on the outside of roundabouts and using the red surface mainly at junctions (like Galwaycyclist mentioned).

Cailleachdubh

LB6 wrote: »

AFAIK -
There are such things as bi-directional cycle paths, ie. red path with white broke lines down the middle. However, there are none of those in Limerick.

What about the cycle lanes on the UL campus? ie the main cycle lane going in the west gate side? This is presumably bi-directional, but has no dividing line, seems to be patched together with the tarmac left over from building the footpath next to it, and is usually clogged up with pedestrians, occasionally drunk ones!

Also, does anyone know whether there has been any fuss in the past about motorists parking in the cycle lane going up the hill from UL towards Dublin Road (don't know what the road is called but where I'm talking about is near the lights, across from Spar, La Cucina, pharmacy etc).

It really bugs me that motorists park here, while they 'run across to the shop'. Actually I noticed today someone had stuck a big giant letter to the side of a parked car, listing the reasons why they were illegally parked! It's ridiculous though - why have a cycle lane at all if it's just for parking and wheelie bins?