Esb Pole & Planning Permission

Rosa3

Hi

First time poster, long time reader here!

I have read through the various other threads about this with great interest ( esp posts from Loremolis ). My house is on a corner on a main road. I have PP for an extension - which involves knocking and rebuilding the boundary wall ( along a public footpath).

My problem is with a large ESB pole on the public path at the side of my house which is butted right up against my boundary wall, and preventing me from building. I have contacted the ESB, and they said that they have to charge me for this - €1500 for a new pole, and €300 per mt of new path.

What I can't understand is why I should have to pay to have this moved, seeing as it is actually touching the wall of my house. I have looked all around South Dublin, and have yet to see a large pole directly up against a house - most are around a foot off the house, or at edge of path.

Sorry for the long post but has anyone any ideas as how I should deal with this? Or have I no hope?

Rosa.

loremolis

Rosa3 wrote: »

Hi

First time poster, long time reader here!

I have read through the various other threads about this with great interest ( esp posts from Loremolis ). My house is on a corner on a main road. I have PP for an extension - which involves knocking and rebuilding the boundary wall ( along a public footpath).

My problem is with a large ESB pole on the public path at the side of my house which is butted right up against my boundary wall, and preventing me from building. I have contacted the ESB, and they said that they have to charge me for this - €1500 for a new pole, and €300 per mt of new path.

What I can't understand is why I should have to pay to have this moved, seeing as it is actually touching the wall of my house. I have looked all around South Dublin, and have yet to see a large pole directly up against a house - most are around a foot off the house, or at edge of path.

Sorry for the long post but has anyone any ideas as how I should deal with this? Or have I no hope?
Rosa.

If you have read my other posts on this then you know exactly what I think about this type of situation.

To state the obvious, you say you have planning permission to build your extension on your property and a pole belonging to a third party (ESB) is preventing you from building.

You could pay them for moving the pole and they will happily accept your money and your problem is solved.

Alternatively, you could write to them as specified (and required) under Section 20 of the 1934 Electricity Supply Act. This section requires that you give the ESB at least 2 months notice of your intention to build within 25 yards of an electricity line and requires that you give the ESB details, plans and particulars of what you intend to construct.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1934/en/act/pub/0038/sec0020.html

This 2 month notice requirement was introduced to give the ESB time to deal with situations such as this i.e to move or alter the line to accomodate the building/development/structure.

Rosa3

Thanks for your reply Loremolis.

My first contact with the ESB was informal, so I intend to write to them this week to get the ball rolling.

It just seems ridiculous that they can put a pole wherever they want, without any regard for the surrounds.

I wonder if anyone else has any experience in this situation? If so I would be grateful for any input.

I will post back with an update.

Rosa.

Certified

The response from Loremolis is spot on.
The ESB networks were very helpful on a past project about 4 years ago.
They altered the lines to accommodate a new building. In that case there was no charge.
Off topic, but moving telephone poles on the other hand has been both difficult and costly

Rosa3

That's good to know, Certified, thanks.

I fear though, that ESB's argument will be that the pole is on a public path, albeit 'butted' right up against my boundary wall!

Was the pole on your past project on the client's land, or on public land?

I just want to be prepared for whatever they might throw at me!!

Thankfully I don't have telecom poles to deal with also, only the NTL line thrown up on top of my garage :rolleyes: !

Certified

It was on private land and the Esb sought permission from the land owner first. In this case that was the clients father. It took a while but they wanted to have a number of local jobs lined up so as not to be turning the power off unneccessarily for each job. I was left impressed by the efficiency of the operation and I must give them credit where credit is due. It's a bit overdue at this stage tho lol

Rosa3

So, I have just had a visit form the local ESB engineer. A nice man, it has to be said, but he didn't come bearing good news!

He said that moving the pole, even just a few foot is going to cost thousands. He said that dem's de rules! The costings are being sent out to me in a few days.

I told him that I was not happy about this, as it's not my fault ESB put a pole so close to my property, preventing me from extending. I refrained from saying any more - like I said he was a nice guy!!

He also said that the pole was there first, before the house was built. I seriously doubt it was. I wonder would anyone know how to find out what year an ESB pole was erected?

sydthebeat

can i ask if you can just design the problem out???

if the ESB pole is
(a) on the public path
(b) butting up against your boundary wall

then it seems very unlikely that it would be a significant factor in any new extension build. There are usually separation distances required to build away from boundaries, especially a boundary shared with a public path.

Rosa3

Thanks for your reply Sydthebeat.

Our (existing) garage to the side of the house sits on the boundary - the boundary wall on the path is the same wall of the garage IYKWIM.

Our PP is to convert the garage, and build over it - extending at 1st floor level out towards the back garden. We have to replace the existing foundations - something we cannot do because the pole is there. Also we would not be able to gutter the roof because of the pole.

So it cannot really be designed out. It's so frustrating.

sydthebeat

you can engineer out that problem.... by introducing a lightweight structure on first floor level supported on a new ring beam at ground ceiling level, supported by new columns at ground level.

anything is possible to construct, you just need to be willing to look outside the box.

yes, the perfect solution would be for ESB to move the pole.

so i hope you can get them to do it for a reasonable fee.... or have you tried loremolis' suggestion?

Rosa3

Thanks for your thoughts Syd

We thought about a lightweight 1st floor alright, but we still have the problem with guttering. Plus the pole would be right aside the master bedroom window. If we stepped everything in, it wouldn't be worth it space-wise.

I have written to the ESB, giving them at least 2 months notice, outlining the PP details, giving maps etc, and mentioning the fact that the pole is too close for us to be able to build. I didn't bring up the matter of their statute with them yet, but plan on doing so when this monstrous bill is sent to me!!

muffler

Rosa3 wrote: »

Our PP is to convert the garage, and build over it.........We have to replace the existing foundations

I'm a little confused here. If you were just converting the garage you wouldn't need new foundations.

If you are planning on demolishing and rebuilding then you are probably best to replace the foundations.

So is this a conversion or a demolition?

Rosa3

Hi Muffler,

Sorry if my post wasn't clear. We are demolishing the garage and replacing the foundations, to be able to build 2 storey in it's place.

As far as I can see, the pole would have affected the existing foundations of the house, because it is so close. Of course, we won't be able to see that until it is removed. The ESB engineer had no comment to make on that, only to say that "we often put poles close to houses/walls".

I have yet to see a pole that big touching a boundary wall....

Rosa3

I have just received the costings from ESB today.

Previously, I was given a verbal quote of around 3k for the works. Astonishingly, I have now been quoted just shy of 10k :eek:

I am appalled and dismayed by this. Not only can I not afford such a figure, I am now faced with the possibility of having to change plans (which we went through hoops to get in the first place) and reapply for planning permission.

I have read through previous posts re getting poles moved, but does anyone have any up to date dealings with the ESB that they could share with me??

I feel so deflated, and feel like giving up at this stage

loremolis

Rosa3 wrote: »

I have just received the costings from ESB today.

Previously, I was given a verbal quote of around 3k for the works. Astonishingly, I have now been quoted just shy of 10k :eek:

I am appalled and dismayed by this. Not only can I not afford such a figure, I am now faced with the possibility of having to change plans (which we went through hoops to get in the first place) and reapply for planning permission.

I have read through previous posts re getting poles moved, but does anyone have any up to date dealings with the ESB that they could share with me??

I feel so deflated, and feel like giving up at this stage

Don't give up, that is what they want you to do so they won't have to deal with this properly.

Why should you have to re-design and go for new planning permission.

The ESB has no right to restrict your enjoyment of your property or to prevent you from building your extension

Paper doesn't refuse ink. While they write 10k they do that just to put you off. Without even seeing exactly what is involved in your case, I know from experience that 10k for moving a pole is 5 times what it would actually cost them. It's their pole, it's their problem.

You are entitled (and required) to give the ESB at least 2 months notice of your intention to commence construction under section 20 of the Electricity Supply Act 1934.

If you do that according to the requirements of Section 20 i.e. include drawings, details etc. then there is a statutory procedure that they must follow if they want to stop you from building.

Rosa3

loremolis wrote: »

Don't give up, that is what they want you to do so they won't have to deal with this properly.

Why should you have to re-design and go for new planning permission.

The ESB has no right to restrict your enjoyment of your property or to prevent you from building your extension

Paper doesn't refuse ink. While they write 10k they do that just to put you off. Without even seeing exactly what is involved in your case, I know from experience that 10k for moving a pole is 5 times what it would actually cost them. It's their pole, it's their problem.

You are entitled (and required) to give the ESB at least 2 months notice of your intention to commence construction under section 20 of the Electricity Supply Act 1934.

If you do that according to the requirements of Section 20 i.e. include drawings, details etc. then there is a statutory procedure that they must follow if they want to stop you from building.

Thank you for your thoughts Loremolis.

I felt so annoyed and upset today. I am hoping that you are right about the statutory procedure. The more I read Section 19 & 20, the more I think that I have the upper hand. We shan't get into legalese here though!

I have already submitted my PP details, maps etc. according to the requirements of Section 20, yet still they hit me with a Massive Bill.

I shall write a letter of complaint to the ESB about this whole saga, and fingers crossed it is solved before I start the works!

I would still like to hear of any recent dealings with the ESB ( good or bad ) if anyone would care to share .

muffler

Rosa3 wrote: »

Thank you for your thoughts Loremolis.

I felt so annoyed and upset today. I am hoping that you are right about the statutory procedure. The more I read Section 19 & 20, the more I think that I have the upper hand. We shan't get into legalese here though!

I have already submitted my PP details, maps etc. according to the requirements of Section 20, yet still they hit me with a Massive Bill.

I shall write a letter of complaint to the ESB about this whole saga, and fingers crossed it is solved before I start the works!

I would still like to hear of any recent dealings with the ESB ( good or bad ) if anyone would care to share .

You can make a complaint initially and if that doesn't work out you can then escalate it up to the Commission for Energy Regulation. The details can be found here... http://www.esb.ie/esbnetworks/en/about-us/complaints.jsp

brdboard

Rosa3 wrote: »

[


I have already submitted my PP details, maps etc. according to the requirements of Section 20, yet still they hit me with a Massive Bill.

I'll preface this by saying I'm not a solicitor, and I haven't read the whole act in question.

I did read sections 19 and 20, and no where does it say that if you give them the 2 months notice of commencing building near a transmission line that they are obliged to move the line.
The section seems to layout the process to prevent building near a line rather than a process to have a line moved.

loremolis

brdboard wrote: »

I'll preface this by saying I'm not a solicitor, and I haven't read the whole act in question.

I did read sections 19 and 20, and no where does it say that if you give them the 2 months notice of commencing building near a transmission line that they are obliged to move the line.
The section seems to layout the process to prevent building near a line rather than a process to have a line moved.

And who is it that ultimately makes the decision?

Rosa3

muffler wrote: »

You can make a complaint initially and if that doesn't work out you can then escalate it up to the Commission for Energy Regulation. The details can be found here... http://www.esb.ie/esbnetworks/en/about-us/complaints.jsp

Thanks Muffler,

I am sending in a letter of complaint tomorrow.

I will post back when I have an update.

Rosa3

I have received a reply to my letter of complaint.

It says that I must be charged (in accordance with the charges as agreed with the CER) for the relocation of the pole, as it is on a public footpath.

They seem to have overlooked the fact that it is affecting the placement of foundations of the side of my house, and it affects the guttering of my roof.

I have looked at their statement of charges http://www.esb.ie/esbnetworks/en/download_documents/charges-policies/index.jsp, and cannot find a charge for the relocation of a pole.

I am writing in again, for one last throw of the dice. Fingers crossed!

muffler

Rosa3 wrote: »

I have received a reply to my letter of complaint.

It says that I must be charged (in accordance with the charges as agreed with the CER) for the relocation of the pole, as it is on a public footpath.

They seem to have overlooked the fact that it is affecting the placement of foundations of the side of my house, and it affects the guttering of my roof.

I have looked at their statement of charges http://www.esb.ie/esbnetworks/en/download_documents/charges-policies/index.jsp, and cannot find a charge for the relocation of a pole.

I am writing in again, for one last throw of the dice. Fingers crossed!

Good man, keep at them.

People have been known to show a gate or a door at these points and if they still insist that it's not an obstruction then it could end up costing them a lot more if it prevented anyone from improving their family home.

sydthebeat

Rosa3 wrote: »

I have received a reply to my letter of complaint.

It says that I must be charged (in accordance with the charges as agreed with the CER) for the relocation of the pole, as it is on a public footpath.

They seem to have overlooked the fact that it is affecting the placement of foundations of the side of my house, and it affects the guttering of my roof.

I have looked at their statement of charges http://www.esb.ie/esbnetworks/en/download_documents/charges-policies/index.jsp, and cannot find a charge for the relocation of a pole.

I am writing in again, for one last throw of the dice. Fingers crossed!

you would not have permission to build a foundation or locate gutters on public property..... so are you making some assumptions here that may turn out to be unworkable?

Rosa3

sydthebeat wrote: »

you would not have permission to build a foundation or locate gutters on public property..... so are you making some assumptions here that may turn out to be unworkable?

Hi.

My foundations are all on my property - the engineer specced a large/deep 'engineered' foundation, starting at the boundary and working into my garden in an 'L' shape. The council requested this type of foundation, as my house is on the boundary. I have full PP for the extension.
The pole is very tall, and although it chamfers in near the top, we would have to stop the guttering at each side of it. Again, full PP including guttering.
It would just be much simpler/safer to have the pole moved. I wouldn't fancy being the builder having to work around this pole!

sydthebeat

im sorry but i am having trouble grasping this....

if:

1. the pole is NOT on your property
and
2. you are only digging foundations ON your property

where is the issue?

again, if the pole is not in your property, i cannot see how it will affect gutters as, unless you have specific permission, the council do not allow gutters etc overhang onto public property.

If the pole was on your property then i could see claim for getting it moved for a reasonable fee, but however, it isnt on your property.

Therefore its a cost to be borne during construction IF you want to get it moved. You need to way up the cost of moving it versus the cost of working around it during construction.

Rosa3

sydthebeat wrote: »

im sorry but i am having trouble grasping this....

if:

1. the pole is NOT on your property
and
2. you are only digging foundations ON your property

where is the issue?

again, if the pole is not in your property, i cannot see how it will affect gutters as, unless you have specific permission, the council do not allow gutters etc overhang onto public property.

If the pole was on your property then i could see claim for getting it moved for a reasonable fee, but however, it isnt on your property.

Therefore its a cost to be borne during construction IF you want to get it moved. You need to way up the cost of moving it versus the cost of working around it during construction.

The issue is that the pole is butted right up against, and touching the side wall of my house.
It is affecting where I place my windows ( the council requested windows in gable wall). It is affecting how I will gutter the roof ( the council denied us a parapet), and it is affecting the placement of my foundations.
The engineer is looking into solutions, but like I said, it would be much simpler and safer if ESB agreed to move it. Why should I have to compromise, and add extra cost to myself because the ESB planted a huge pole touching my house?
Don't get me wrong, I don't hold out much hope, but I have to try!

sydthebeat

good luck with i.

personally i would save myself the hassle by moving the wall 15-20 cm from the pole.

Rosa3

Well, the saga continues......

Had a meeting with the ESB today, and it appears that the pole is staying where it is, and we must work around it.

It transpires that the foundations for the famous pole may well be under my wall and jutting into my property.

Until we excavate, we won't know the extent of such. The ESB will be onsite on that day, and he said that if we compromise the pole's foundation ( which is probably in my property) he will put a "stop work order" on us!


I have a pain!