Great interview with Nacho Beristain

Henno30

This is pretty long, but I'd highly recommend it. Some great stuff.

A Conversation with Nacho Beristain: Part One



By Gabriel Montoya
Translated by Zaira Nazario



The Mexican state of Veracruz de Ignacio De La Llave is named for Ignacio De La Llave, a general in the Mexican army who fought against Santa Anna, Emperor Maximilian and on the Liberal government’s side of the Reform War. He served as the Governor of Veracruz from 1861 to 1862 and died a year later from battle injuries. On December 23, some 79 years later, in the Veracruz town of Actopan, another Ignacio was born, this one to the Beristain family. While he never tried to take down an emperor, this Ignacio would one day become a general in his own right. His battlefield: the square ring. His soldiers: a seemingly endless list of champion boxers, both built by him and reclaimed warriors who fought for others, coming to him for guidance down the line. For his lifetime of efforts, the 68-year-old Beristain was inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame this year.

On August 19, 2011, I had the rare opportunity to not just speak to Ignacio “Nacho” Beristain (that can happen at any media day for his fighters) but to sit for two-and-a-half hours and ask him anything I could think of. I was in Mexicali to cover Alfredo Angulo, who was returning after a 13-month layoff and Beristain, who said he had not been in Mexicali in some 20 years but has been a friend of Angulo’s for ten of them, was going to work the corner as a cut man.

The night before the fight, Lucy Haro, attorney for Perro Promotions and essentially, my host for the fight, arranged for me, Scott Hale of Halestormssports.com and photographer Ray Flores to travel to Mexicali with to meet with Nacho at Lucy’s favorite café, Slow Down. It was here in a private room that we all sat back, watched Nacho drink his coffee and smoke his Salvadoran cigar and listened.

150 minutes are not enough to get all the answers I wanted. I’d have to spend a lifetime in the gym with him to get those. However, it is long enough for me to split what I’ve got into two parts. As I write, my translator, Zaira Nazario, is still working away at the transcription. This is just a beginning of a conversation.

“In my birthplace, there were boxing competitions of purely amateur boxing,” Beristain said of his beginnings in boxing. “I started boxing there with some professional boxers. I was in school; I was like 11 or 12 years old. At school, one is constantly fighting. They saw me and invited me to train with them. After about a year of being trained there, I started competing in the Golden Gloves. I lost the finals to a cousin. Afterward, in another tournament I found, I beat him. He retired and I continued fighting in the amateurs. He retired and is now an agricultural engineer.”


As a light flyweight, Beristain competed in the nationals held in Ciudad Juarez, finishing third. From there, he turned professional, fought “around 17” fights before his career ended, following a right eye injury.

While he could no longer compete in the sport, the die was cast for Beristain. “Boxing poisoned my blood since I started training. I stayed to never ever quit boxing,” he said.

Beristain spoke of his apprenticeship as a manager and as a trainer.

“I was with a legendary manager as a fighter,” Beristain said. “I was with Arturo Hernandez, who was a legend in Mexican boxing, and with Adolfo Perez, who was known as "El Negro" Perez. He was the manager of "El Zurdo de Oro" (The Golden Southpaw), Vicente Saldivar, who was a two-time featherweight world champion of all sanctioning bodies. Between [Perez] and I, we managed him. That was 1964-68. Then he came back in 1969 and won the championship again. He fought in England, in the United States. He beat Jose Legra and Raul Rojas in California. He fought in Mexico and many parts of the world and won.”

For Beristain, boxing was his Godsend, his gift. Many people go through life and choose what they want to be but it is the rare person who discovers who and what they were meant to be.

“Look, boxing is the second love of my life. My kids are the first, my family. I think I will never separate from it because I like it more every time. The compromise now after the Hall of Fame is bigger for me. I have to do better. I know God has been very kind with me because He has given me 20 world champions and two female champions. Right now in the gym, Romanza, which is a combination of the names of the first two world champions I had. One is originally from [Mexicali], Gilberto Román, two-times super flyweight champion of the world. The other one is Daniel Zaragoza, who has been world champion four times.”

At the mention of his champions, we asked who among his fighters was the best or his favorite. I ventured it was Ricardo Lopez, who defended his WBC strawweight belt a record 21 times while picking up the WBA and WBO versions along the way. For an encore, Lopez won the IBF light flyweight title and defended it twice to retire undefeated at 51-0-1 with 38 knockouts. Some fight fans might disagree and say current lightweight champion Juan Manuel Marquez is his finest fighter. Nacho would too.

“I believe Juan Manuel is from another generation and so is Ricardo,” said Beristain when comparing them. “Ricardo has not been the best. The most technical has been Juan Manuel. Juan Manuel has been champion of the world three times in different weight classes. Gilberto Román, in his time, was a very technical boxer. I don’t know if you saw him.”

I have. Roman, like the most technical of Beristain fighters, stands almost at a fencer’s angle the lead hand just a bit higher than the rear. From this position, the lead can shoot the jab, parry any incoming flak and is not above throwing a lead uppercut to devastating effect.

Beristain told of us of a gift he received from the IBHOF.

“I was given an iPad as a gift, with 100 world championship fights of the fighters I have had and with classical music,” said Beristain. “They hit me right here in the crown of the head because I was a little bit angry with the people of the Hall of Fame. I don’t know how they investigated and found out that I like classical music and gave me this big gift.”

Beristain left it a mystery as to why he was mad at the Hall of Fame.

I asked why Mexicans seem to go perfectly with boxing. It seems to be in our blood. While we look at the decline of our sport in the US, in Mexico, it still is very much part of the culture. The next night at Angulo’s fight, which was clearly going to be of the tune-up variety, there were a reported 20,000-plus in attendance. I can’t think of a current fighter from the States who can do those attendance numbers for a comeback fight.

“In Mexico, the kids play marbles and some of the abusive kids come and want to steal their marbles and they would beat each other up for the marbles,” answered Beristain simply.

In other words, fighting just comes with the territory.

We asked about his style and where it comes from. Most Mexican boxers are known for their come-forward mentality, often shirking defense in favor of landing volume or, in some cases, one or two heavy shots. Beristain’s fighters generally are known as technicians, employing a counterpunching style, utilizing sound fundamentals. However, Beristain stressed he does not try to fit his technical style into every boxer he trains. As fighters, strengths and nature sometimes fold into the equation.

“I am very inclined toward technical boxing,” said Beristain, “but I have had fighters that it is useless to want to teach them how to box and I have had to refuse to develop a different boxing, like the bantamweight champion I had, Victor Rabanales. Juan Manuel Marquez, Gilberto Román, a lot of my fighters have good defense because I believe that the most important thing is boxing is defense, so my fighters do not come out so hurt.”

One thing I notice in gyms I visit is a lack of attention to footwork. Everyone wants to punch; nobody wants to move. “The feet” are the starting point of Beristain’s training.

“I think that in the gym, kids start by coordinating their feet movements and afterwards, their feet with their hands, so that there are less difficulties later on to teach them the punching routine,” he explained. “We have less problems that way.”

Beristain explained an important reason for needing solid offensive and defensive technique. Having it is not just about surviving a fight or a career without injury. It is the pure necessity of winning in order to keep making money. This is a worldwide sport and to survive in it, you have to go on the road. In order to win- which doesn’t always happen even when you clearly do, (see Chris John vs. Juan Manuel Marquez in John’s home country of Indonesia)- one must have superior technique. Being a face-first brawler might be exciting but it generally leads to “opponent” status. While pure boxers don’t always win to be sure, it stands to reason that the more weapons and defense you have at your disposal, your odds of success will be greater.

“Now, all my fighters, the 20 world champions I have had, all of them have gone "door-to-door" to fight,” said Beristain. “We have won five titles in Japan, in Korea. We have to go out and fight wherever, "door-to-door", to earn more money. We have also won championship titles in the United States. I reached the conclusion that in order to have high-level boxing, exported boxing, leaving Mexico to look to earn dollars, or yens, British pounds sterling, one has to have a quality boxing.”

Beristain explained why Mexican fighters tend to be known as brawlers who eschew defense in order to land heavy leather in volume.

“What happens is, look, I’ll explain. In Mexico, there are fighters in the provinces that retire early from boxing and dedicate themselves to train boxers. They never got to master a given boxing technique, so they transmit a very poor boxing in terms of technique,” said Beristain. “There are now many trainers that have been getting better. Before, you could count them in Mexico with the fingers of one hand. For example, there was a trainer in Yucatan who worried a lot about teaching the fighters how to box well: Miguel Canto, a very good fighter. His trainer at that time is now a great trainer but he is retired. Arturo Hernandez was a genius of boxing. He had "El Negro" Perez. They were masters of boxing with curiosity. They investigated; they observed and they taught a very high level boxing.

“But the trainers have been improving on that,” Beristain added. “Boxing evolves in the entire world but in Mexico, trainers are worrying more to teach more technique.”

The conversation was just beginning.

Henno30

A Conversation with Nacho Beristain: Part Two

As the conversation moved along in the private room at the Mexicali café “Slow Down,” photographer Ray Flores, writer Scott Hale of Halesports.com, our translator, Lucy Haro, and I asked Hall of Fame trainer Nacho Beristain about the changes he has seen in boxing’s popularity, globally, and particularly in Mexico.

“What happens is in Mexico, boxing was the number one sport, the number one show. Not today because now, soccer came to push all sports to the side worldwide,” said Beristain. “Soccer is the most popular one now. Even I am very attracted to watching soccer.”

However, Beristain was quick to dismiss the clichéd notion that boxing is dying with the advent of MMA.

“It is very difficult because boxing is an extraordinary show,” said Beristain, sitting back with his cigar and contemplating the future. “It will not die in Mexico. A lot of people attack it. There are many detractors but if you go to the history of boxing, you will see that boxing was very popular in the first Olympic Games. What has to disappear- and it is a little bit difficult- are the thieves we have in boxing.”

Beristain would go into detail about one “thief” in particular, who will be mentioned later in this particular installment and highlighted in a later installment.

The conversation moved to the subject of trainers. One subject that recently has come to my attention is the lack of trainers’ rights. A fighter can spend years with one trainer, move to a top position and because of the lack of contract (which is often the practice between trainers and fighters), the trainer can be left in the cold in favor of a more cost effective choice or a trainer who is more agreeable. Beristain started by sharing a story of trainer Alcides Sagarra, who trained such notables as Felix Savon. Sagarra suffered a fate worse than being left behind.

“I used to go to Cuba three times a year from 1964 to 1980,” said Beristain. “I have a video that someone just gave to me as a gift of a Cuban trainer. The greatest trainer of Cuban fighters, Alcides Sagarra, is my friend. They have him punished now because he took a fighter out of the team that was going to the Olympics and replaced him with another fighter. He assured them that fighter was going to win the medal and he couldn’t win the medal.”

I asked Beristain his thoughts on if trainers need more legal protection provided by the commissions. I’m not sure he understood my question initially; regardless, he did provide a hilarious anecdote.

“Well, I have received a lot of awards. In Mexico, I received "El Heraldo de Mexico". In the United States, I received a sculpture of the spirit of boxing, the California Boxing Hall of Fame, Canastota Boxing Hall of Fame...I think besides the fact that God has been very, very, but exaggeratedly good with me, people in boxing feel a lot of love for me in all the world,” said Beristain. “I receive letters from England, from Ireland, from Scotland, from many places, where people congratulate and recognize me. Even a very ugly lady in Spain wanted to marry me. She has a lot of money but looks like a mummy. She has a lot of money but when they showed me the picture, I said, ‘No,’ and I almost faint. I almost insult seriously the Spaniards that called me. ‘Ugly’ was little to say. This lady, besides ugly, was old. Two weeks ago, there was a piece in a newspaper in Mexico saying she already found a man who will marry her. He is 28 years old and is from Spain and he was holding her hand. Let’s see if the hand doesn’t fall off because she’s already too wrinkled.”

Fighters of today often have a nutritionist, strength coach, speed coach, conditioning coach, motivational speaker and the guy who holds the towel. Beristain is from the old school and believes a good trainer should be all of those things.

“I have never needed a physical conditioning coach,” said Beristain. “The government sent me to Russia precisely to take a physical conditioning course but the old trainers have never needed a strength-and-conditioning coach.”

Finally, I got through with my question about the fighter/trainers contract. Like each of the trainers I spoke to in my recent article on trainers, (creatively titled The Trainers), Beristain believes it is up to the individuals to handle their business.

“I do not sign a contract with the fighters because when they make me mad, I have the freedom to ask them to leave,” said Beristain. “Ricardo Lopez, being a world champion, the only fighter that [I have] retired undefeated as a professional - he never lost as a professional - made me mad one day and I asked him to leave. He then come to ask me to forgive him and I told him: now you will pay $100,000 for each fight before you fight. He came back to train with me and I charged him before the fight.”

This kind of freedom allows Beristain to take each fighter on a case-by-case basis. Chemistry between fighter and trainer is a key component to success. A trainer can have all the knowledge, the fighter all the talent, but if they cannot see eye-to eye or are not open to learn and grow together, it just won’t work. Personal character is everything in a relationship of this or any other kind.

“[Former bantam and super bantamweight champion] Rafael Marquez is a boxer with a different character than his brother, [Juan Manuel], rude with people. I told him many times, ‘Look, both you and I live off those people that pay their tickets. Because of them, we can support our families. Respect them.’ His brother is different. His brother has become an idol. People love him because he’s very humble. He hugs people; he helps them. He has another different character. It surprises me.

“One day we traveled from Los Angeles to Mexico and there was a lady with arthritis,” Beristain continued. “Juan helped her get her luggage inside the plane. In the airport in Mexico, he helped her carrying her luggage in a cart. It was a beautiful gesture. That is why people love him so much. He is an idol in Mexico. In the United States, he now gathers the crowds that Oscar De La Hoya used to gather.”

I asked Beristain if perhaps a trainers’ union is the way to go.

“In Mexico, there are [unions to protect trainers] but they are always fighting,” said Beristain. “They do not help each other. Because of that, [Adolfo] ‘El Negro’ Perez always had a gym rented only for him. Me, after the first world champions I had, in 1992 I bought some land and built a gym. It is called Romanza. It is the name of the boxer that was born here in Mexicali, Roman, and the two letters of Zaragoza. It is in Colonia Granjas de Mexico.”

For his fight with Manny Pacquiao, Oscar De La Hoya hired Beristain to work his corner. One of the sparring partners for the fight was the late Edwin Valero, who did not last long in camp. Beristain offered his thoughts on the late lightweight titleholder who reportedly killed himself in a jail in Venezuela in April 2010 after killing his wife the night before.

“He was a bit crazy,” said Beristain. “As a fighter, he was bad but when he hit, he hit very...[hard]. But look at the story of that fighter. Since he was a kid, he was a thief. When he was young, he would go, for example, on a motorcycle with someone on the back and they would find somebody else with a motorcycle, get him off and steal it. One day, the cops [gave chase] and he hit a post. A metal plate had to be implanted on him. That’s why here in the US, they didn’t allow him to fight. He was somewhat crazy. He married a very beautiful woman and used to beat her quite frequently. She shot him in the [inaudible]. The last thing he did, he beat his mother.”

It should be noted while Valero did have a motorcycle accident that caused bleeding on the brain, a condition that cost his license to box in the US, no mention of a metal plate had ever been heard by this writer until this conversation.

“I chucked [Valero] out of Oscar’s camp,” said Beristain. “I asked them to give him his money and get him out. He was there in camp until 1 AM playing pool and drinking.”

On the media day for that fight, held in Big Bear, CA where Oscar was training, De La Hoya was sporting a black eye. While some reports claimed it was from a sparring session with Golden Boy Promotions fighter Victor Ortiz, I had heard that Valero, who bet a large amount of cash on Pacquiao to knock out Oscar, was in fact the culprit. Beristain confirmed this.

“Yes. He threw a punch after time was over,” said Beristain. ‘Time was over’ meaning after the bell had rung in a sparring session. “The next day, I chucked him out. That’s why he disliked me. Whenever he would see me, he would not say hello. Oscar’s brother said, ‘No, he’s not leaving.’ I told him, ‘Yes, he is leaving; he is leaving now.’ So Joel went to complain to Oscar. Oscar told Joel, ‘You have to obey. If Don Nacho said he goes, he goes.’”

Beristain explained that it was his decision to stop the Pacquiao-De La Hoya fight. Many have claimed Oscar quit on his stool in between the eighth and ninth rounds. On the HBO tape, Oscar is asked if he wants to continue and he shakes his head ‘No’ but to hear Beristain tell it, the decision was already made and it was actually Oscar’s brother, Joel, who wanted to make sure.

“In the corner, when he was hitting him, I told Oscar, ‘If you don’t throw punches, I’m gonna stop the fight because this guy is not going to be gloating over you.’ His brother said, ‘No you’re not gonna stop the fight.’ I said, ‘Yes, I will stop it and I am the one in charge here.’”

We asked if that was the problem with Oscar going into that fight, too many voices in camp.

“No,” said Beristain. “No, the problem was the drop in weight. His legs were not working well.”

Beristain explained that De La Hoya’s plan to drop down to 147 well before the fight in order to become strong at that weight vs. the smaller Pacquiao completely backfired. De La Hoya’s strength coach, Rob Garcia, simply dropped Oscar too low in weight too soon and that ultimately left Oscar listless and flat in the fight.

Changing trainers was a major theme in De La Hoya’s career. He worked with Robert Alcazar, Gil Clancy, Beristain, Jesus Rivera, Freddie Roach, Floyd Mayweather Sr. and Emanuel Steward. I might be missing a few. I asked Beristain if that constant change stunted his growth as a fighter and possibly kept him from finding his true identity in the ring. Beristain answered and then offered a glimpse into what might have been.

“No,” he answered simply. “I will tell you something for history. Four or five years ago, they called me and took me to the office of Oscar’s manager, who had a car [inaudible]. They wanted me to train him before Jesus Rivera and Emmanuel Steward but I had two jewels in my gym and their names were Rafael Marquez and Juan Manuel Marquez. They were fighting six-rounders and I always bet they were going to be world champions. They were training with me since they were 12 years old. I told [Oscar’s people ] I was not going to abandon [Rafael and Juan Manuel]. If I could take those two fighters to training camp, I would accept, if not, no. They told me that was not possible, that I had to be trainer of Oscar De La Hoya exclusively, so I said no. Oscar’s father and manager were surprised when I said no. It would have been a stupidity on my part to leave my job to go earn $200,000 or $300,000.

“Money is important but when journalists write a note of eight columns, they love their work and I love mine,” continued Beristain. “You don’t know what I feel when one of my boxers is amateur and wins the Golden Gloves, wins the district. I get him to the pros and he wins the world championship. I cannot describe the emotion. It’s an indescribable emotion. There is no money in the world that can repay you that joy. Juan Manuel Marquez fights on November 12 and the idea doesn’t exist in my head that I’m going to make a million dollars. My mind is occupied with the thought that we have to beat Manny Pacquiao again, even if I come back saying, ‘You were robbed.’

Coming into the conversation, Lucy told us that we could ask anything. She explained that Nacho would prefer to discuss his philosophies on fighting, boxing itself, and the past. He did not want it to be a typical media day where we just ask about the fight at hand. But since we got there, naturally, it made sense to press forward in regard to the third fight between Manny Pacquiao and Juan Manuel Marquez. If you live on a planet with no boxing, I’ll fill you in.

They first met at featherweight on May 8, 2004. Marquez was dropped three times in the first round, got up and fought his way back into the fight. The decision, much debated by fans of both and boxing in general ever since, was a draw.

They met again four years later at junior lightweight on March 15, 2008. This time, Marquez was dropped in the third round. That knockdown was the difference in the split decision loss to Pacquiao. In each fight, Marquez has appeared to outbox Pacquiao only to have the knockdowns keep him from victory.

Now, three years later, on November 12, the two men will face each other again. This time, they will fight at a catchweight of 144 pounds for Pacquiao’s WBO welterweight title. At present, Marquez is the lineal lightweight champion.

Beristain started by telling us how negotiations for the fight began.

“[Top Rank promoter] Bob Arum went and sat in front of me in the Hall of Fame to have breakfast. He extended his hand to me and told me, ‘The past is past. Now to work on this fight.’ I wasn’t too pleased but manners do not allow you to tell a man, [‘No, I will not shake your hand].”

We asked why Pacquiao is so difficult for Marquez who, at 126 and 130, was able to stay with Pacquiao where fighters at 140 (Ricky Hatton) or at 147 and above (De La Hoya, Antonio Margarito, Joshua Clottey and Miguel Cotto) have either been stopped brutally or shutout by the Filipino fighter who started his own career at 106 pounds.

“I think it’s the opposite,” said Beristain. “Juan Manuel is very difficult for Manny because they were in 24 rounds in which [Manny] knocked [Juan Manuel] down in the two fights - three times in one - and he got up because the referee was in favor of [Manny]. Who was the champion? Double champion? That’s why we don’t want Joe Cortez. He told Juan Manuel, ‘You are the champion but if you hit him and knock him down and he is down in the canvas and you punch him, you will irremediably lose your title.’ And it was the opposite. In the third knockdown, when Juan was with his glove in the canvas, Pacquiao went and punched him and Cortez ignored it. He wasn’t going to disqualify him.”

Replays show Marquez clearly down and getting hit well past that time by Pacquiao. Still, it was what happened after that round that gives Beristain and Pacquiao fits.

“Juan got up, came to the corner with blood and hurt by the three knockdowns but he started to figure [Manny] out in the second round,” said Beristain.

There are many who feel this third fight with Pacquiao will not be competitive as Marquez seems to have topped out at 135 pounds while Pacquiao has moved up past 140 and had much success. Marquez has already fought once at welterweight against Floyd Mayweather and was shutout over 12 rounds back in September of 2009. At the weight, he looked flat, old and slow. We asked Beristain if he feels that Top Rank, who waited four years for a rematch and now another three years for this rubber match, are getting Juan at the right time and at the wrong weight.

“Yes, they got a little bit of advantage but look, there is a detail that people have not understood,” said Beristain, setting up his cigar holder as Marquez and a sugar shaker as Pacquiao. “Here is Pacquiao, who is a southpaw, and here is Juan Manuel Marquez, who is an orthodox. And here, this little space [between them], us trainers call it ’The Combat Zone.’ If Juan Manuel dominates that combat zone, he will take Pacquiao to round 12 again. If Juan Manuel gets careless in technique, Pacquiao can knock him out because of his punching power, which is superior. But if we manage to make Juan understand that if he dominates that little space called combat zone, he will beat him. He will beat him again.”

Beristain offered a third scenario.

“If [WBC President-for-Life Jose] Sulaiman and Bob Arum already came to an agreement to block [Marquez] because Pacquiao generates millions and millions of dollars...”

It should be noted that this fight is not for a WBC belt. However, WBC champ Victor Ortiz is fighting Floyd Mayweather Jr. later this month and perhaps Beristain was referring to that instance. As I stated before, I will share Beristain’s thoughts on Sulaiman in a later installment.

While some define Pacquiao as a pound-for-pound entrant or a fighter who has won titles in eight weight classes, it would seem to Beristain that this rivalry is what defines both men. While other fighters have fallen to Pacquiao and Marquez, when they fight, it is always a classic encounter decided by the smallest of margins. That kind of definition is what all fighters and trainers hope for. No one is ever great on his own. It takes a fighter of equal skill or ability to bring it out of you.

“I believe we have to be grateful to Pacquiao because he showed up on Juan’s career and with those two fights they robbed from Juan, instead of setting him back, the Filipinos themselves welcome Juan like crazy. The second idol of Philippine boxing is called Juan Manuel Marquez.

“One day, when I was gonna train Oscar, I was very early at the airport in Mexico and about 15 Filipinos came,” Beristain continued. “I believe they were in some convention. I was wearing a Juan Manuel Marquez jacket. Some people were laughing. I was seeing them laughing. When I turned back, the Filipinos were there with cameras taking photos of the Juan Manuel Marquez jacket. Then you know what the Filipinos themselves told me? The Filipinos told me Juan Manuel Marquez won.”

“In many ways, Juan has defined Manny,” one of us offered.

“[Marquez] dominated that little space, that which is super important for a southpaw and an orthodox fighter,” said Beristain. “[Juan Manuel] walked and threw. Manny threw or attempted to throw a punch and Juan Manuel responded with three, walked there and wouldn’t let him...in that fight, the last one, Juan Manuel had cut him seven times in the right eye.

“I define Pacquiao as a great athlete, a pleasant person, humble,” said Beristain. “He is a great fighter. I have had big arguments with the people that say he uses anabolic [steroids]. I do not believe that.”

Finally on the subject, we asked if the size of Pacquiao will be too much for Marquez at this stage of their careers. Beristain pointed out that while Manny has taken the weight well, the difference is that he has been facing bigger, slower fighters. In Marquez, he will be facing someone his own size.

“It’s not his natural weight though. Pacquiao has never gone above 140,” said Beristain. In truth, Pacquiao has weighed 145 twice, 144 twice and 142 once but it would appear he does not gain much weight on the fight nights in question. The point being, Manny is not your typical welterweight who walks around as a middleweight and then boils down to 147 only to gain ten or more pounds back the night of the fight. “What happens is that all the bigger fighters, heavier fighters, are afraid of him because of the speed. They see him and they cover themselves and do not throw at him. Juan Manuel Marquez counterpunches him.”

And the conversation continued…

Henno30

A Conversation with Nacho Beristain: Part Three

As the evening wound down at Café Slow Down, Ignacio “Nacho” Beristain pulled fewer and fewer punches. Some of those punches thrown are here. Others will have to go in the vault, saved for a rainy day or a book in the future. Ironically and appropriate to last weekend’s Floyd Mayweather-Victor Ortiz fight, the talk turned to Beristain’s favorite fighter and his use of dirty tactics to win.

“Look, my favorite fighter in the world is called Bernard Hopkins because he is an extremely dirty fighter,” smiled Beristain. “He hits you with the elbows. He hits you here in the thighs. He hits you over here...I laugh because a lot of people ask him, ‘A photo, a photo!’ He ignores them but to me, he tells me, ‘Master!’ and hugs me. I have several photos with him. He looks for me. In a press conference, they asked me, ‘Muhammad Ali?’ (meaning if Ali was his favorite fighter) I said ‘No, Bernard Hopkins.’ Why? Because I have been very attentive watching his fights and, man, all the dirty things he does! How he hits them! He dominates everything. He is standing on the front and with this hand, he… [Beristain rose to his feet excitedly to demonstrate how Hopkins moves his opponent and his own body to obscure the referee from his fouls to the hips and below the belt to the groin]. If the referee changes to this side, he grabs them from here and hits them. He is a sensational guy, his technique, his age, apart from being very smart. That ‘güey’ is my idol.

“In the Hall of Fame, I only bought two photos, one of a classic fight of another fighter I admired a lot, Sugar Ray Robinson,” Beristain continued. “I bought a sensational photo of Jake LaMotta with Sugar Ray Robinson. Jake LaMotta is in one corner all torn to shreds and Sugar Ray Robinson in the corner with all a gentleman’s aspect. And I bought one of Bernard Hopkins where he is hitting [Winky Wright]. Juan Manuel [Marquez] would tell me, ‘What an ugly fight!’ and I told him, ‘But just observe all the things Hopkins is doing!’ I told Hopkins that night, ‘Hey, I saw how you were hitting him.’ Hopkins laughed and told me, ‘Master, I learned that in jail.’ Hopkins was laughing one day because I told him that the day he dies, they shouldn’t bury or cremate him; they should perform taxidermy with him.”

Beristain further explained that sometimes a foul is necessary, particularly when you are being fouled yourself. Once a dirty fighter opens the door, you can take it and accept the consequences or you can give him a taste of his own medicine. “I find [Hopkins] to be a marvel because I have won world titles with a foul blow,” smiled Beristain. “In Japan, we [Nacho with Daniel Zaragoza] won a world title to a 19-years-old kid who was throwing [Zaragoza] headbutt after headbutt. I told Zaragoza, ‘That is a lack of respect to a fighter like you who is older. With what hand do you hit harder?’

“With the left hand,” answered Zaragoza.

“You will jab him and imagine he has his liver here and hit him with a hook to his balls,” instructed Beristain. “[Zaragoza] told me, ‘No, I won’t do that.’ I replied, ‘Of course you will do it. If not, you’ll be left alone here because I will leave,’ and that way, he stopped him and knocked him out and we won the world championship. That is why I admire Hopkins because he is an artist; he knows. He is an artist doing those dirty tricks.” The conversation moved to fighters of today and how they compare to the fighters of old. In particular, the crew of Scott Hale, Ray Flores, me and Lucy Haro, our interpreter asked Nacho what he thought of Saul Alvarez, the junior middleweight who at 21 years of age is already being touted as a superstar. At present, the young fighter is the WBC titleholder and has two defenses under his belt. We asked specifically if Beristain felt “Canelo” was brought up to soon to a belt.

“No, he has already a lot of fights,” answered Beristain of the 38-0-1 (28) fighter. “What happens is they put him against a lot of punching bags, bad fighters and old. [In Mexico], they call him ‘The Murderer of the Elderly.’ You know what I think, that if "El Perrito" [Alfredo Angulo] fights him, I think [Angulo] knocks him out in four or five rounds. I like how [Alvarez] boxes. What I don’t like is the quality of the boxers they put him against.”

“Who is better?” I asked. “Saul Alvarez or Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.?”

“I think both are bad, bad,” said Beristain. “‘Canelo’ has fought a lot of fighters that are good-for-nothing.”
Last March on Mexican television, there was a mock court held called "El Tribunal del Boxeo," with Beristain as the prosecutor. Oscar De La Hoya and Saul Alvarez were witnesses and even the great Julio Cesar Chavez Sr. called into the program to put in his two cents on the accused WBC President-for-Life Jose Sulaiman. “I hit [Sulaiman] and Oscar De La Hoya hard [verbally],” laughed Beristain. “I gave Oscar some hard blows. He just laughed. Now they want to do it again because it had tremendous ratings.”
The program attempted to determine if Alvarez deserved a shot at the vacant WBC title he would eventually win in a catchweight fight against English welterweight Matthew Hatton. Beristain tore into Sulaiman as did his fighter Juan Manuel Marquez. It was good entertainment but the show also had much truth to it. We asked Beristain about the show and his thoughts on whether or not Sulaiman was helping to protect Alvarez while guiding him to a belt.

“Yes, too much,” said Beristain. “On that TV show, [TV commentator and one of the show’s judges] Dr. Morales told [Sulaiman] I was the prosecutor and he told him, ‘You are ‘Canelo’s’ godfather.’ I said, ‘Yes, he is his godfather.’ [Morales] said, ‘And aren’t you going to give him his allowance?’ I told [Morales], ‘[Sulaiman] already gave it to [Alvarez]. He almost put the belt on his waist.’ I killed [Sulaiman] with that. People were happy. They started calling the show saying, ‘Congratulations to the prosecutor because he’s telling Sulaiman the truth.’ [Sulaiman] is a delinquent and I am the first person that tells him.”

In Thomas Hauser’s book on the fight game, The Black Lights: Inside the World of Professional Boxing, he recalled a story told by Sulaiman about how he first came to the boxing world as a young boy, fighting in what were known as “hors d’oeuvres” bouts held before the real fights between young boys. The purses they won were the coins thrown to them by the crowd. From page 97 of The Black Lights, Inside the World of Professional Boxing:

“Jose Sulaiman was born in Tamaulipas, Mexico, on May 30, 1931. The son of a Lebanese immigrant, he grew up in San Luis Potosi, and was introduced to boxing in 1939. "I was eight years old," Sulaiman remembers. "A group of friends went to a boxing match, and I asked my father for money to buy a ticket. He refused. The thought of spending to watch two men punch each other in the head outraged him, so I went to the stadium and begged to get in. The gatekeeper told me I could go for free if I participated in the hors d’oeuvres.

“The hors d’oeuvres was a long-established custom in Mexico. Before each fight card, two children would square off and fight to excite the crowd. "My opponent was a Mexican Indian," Sulaiman continues, "much taller than I was, about ten years old. At first, he was very scared of me, but I didn’t know how to fight and he won, although he never knocked me down." During the hors d’oeuvres, tradition dictated that the crowd throws coins into the ring. "After the fight," says Sulaiman, "while my opponent was waiting for the decision to be announced, I took off my gloves and picked up the coins. He won the fight, but I won most of the money. After that, I kept going back to the hors d’oeuvres. I kept losing fights, and I kept getting most of the coins."

I asked Beristain about that story, to which he replied, “No, no, [Sulaiman] made it all up. Sulaiman is a liar. Look, one day, I was at his house and he invited me and two journalists to have coffee. I got up and saw a baseball. I grabbed it and saw it had Ted Williams’ autograph in it. I don’t know much about baseball but one of the journalists told me - the journalist already passed away - Ted Williams was a baseball legend. We heard Sulaiman was coming, so I put the baseball back and sat down. The journalist told him, ‘Mr. Sulaiman, it’s a marvel that baseball you have in there.’ Sulaiman replied, ‘Yes, because it was the first one of two...I was a pitcher and it was one of the two times I pitched a perfect game. What a liar, old man. We saw the baseball and it said ‘Ted Williams,’ had his signature but my grandfather told me, ‘Never argue with a millionaire because they buy everything with the money they have.’”

Beristain went on to say that because of Sulaiman’s tremendous influence not just on boxing but on television, a fight between Juan Manuel Marquez and Marco Antonio Barrera almost did not happen.

“Well, if [the networks] don’t listen to [Sulaiman], the guy punishes them,” claimed Beristain. “He doesn’t like Juan Manuel Marquez and when Oscar wanted to do the fight between Juan Manuel Marquez and Barrera, [Sulaiman] said no. We were listening to the conversation. [Sulaiman] told [Oscar], ‘No, no, that fight cannot be made.’ Oscar got mad and told him, ‘Sir, then I won’t fight for the welterweight title either. Thank you.’ [Sulaiman] then said, ‘No, no, no. Wait, Oscar, wait. Juan Manuel Marquez’s fight is authorized.’ That’s why I believe that now that ‘Perro’ has signed with Oscar, Oscar will get him the championship fight but you (Beristain then turned to address Haro, an attorney working with Angulo) have to be very clever there and demand in writing whether he will give him the shot at the championship. It will be a difficult fight with [Vanes] Martirosyan.”

Vanes Martirosyan, the fighter Beristain referred to, was set to fight Angulo in a box-off to determine the number one contender but instead Martirosyan turned down the fight, feeling that the money and the venue in Mexico heavily tilted the fight against him. He passed on the fight recently and now Angulo will face James Kirkland November 5 in Cancun on HBO instead. Beristain’s next comment will probably be looked at with a sad eye by Martirosyan, a boxer with the kinds of skills that could trouble the slower but more powerful boxer/brawler Angulo.

“[Martirosyan] is too technical, very clever,” said Beristain who believed that Angulo could win but would face some stylistic trouble in the match. “Sulaiman gave ‘Perro’ the chance with very bad intentions but if ‘Perro’ beats [Martirosyan], I don’t know what Sulaiman will do but he won’t give him the chance against ‘Canelo.’” I ventured that while there are too many belts, the amount of them does offer fighters opportunities to make more money, keeping just one champion from shutting out solid contenders. One belt might logjam the whole works.

“The prestige of boxing is reduced a bit but it gives a lot of fighters opportunity because some sanctioning bodies- like Sulaiman’s WBC- has become a thief,” said Beristain. “I will give you an example: They have two world champions at middleweight, the kid from Guadalajara [Alvarez] and Julio’s son. And Perro, who has more physical strength and is an authentic fighter, they don’t give him the opportunity. He has to look for an opportunity in a sanctioning body that opens its door to him.” Beristain also cited the recent stripping of former WBC middleweight champion- now simply the lineal champ- Sergio Martinez, who was first stripped by the WBO and then by the WBC for not facing his mandatory junior middleweight title challenger, Sebastian Zbik. At the time, Martinez’s promoter, Lou DiBella, tried to put Martinez-Zbik on HBO, the network Martinez has now fought on for several years. The network deemed Zbik unworthy. When the WBC stripped Martinez, HBO bought Chavez Jr. vs. Zbik for the vacant WBC belt despite its previous ruling. There are those that feel that because Top Rank, Chavez Jr.’s promoter, had taken its superstar fighter Manny Pacquiao to Showtime for his last pay-per-view fight, HBO was in fact trying to make up with the promoter in order to lure the cash cow Filipino back to the network. It should be noted that while Chavez Jr. was made the number one contender by the WBC, he had yet to face a decent, much less top ten, middleweight.

“There is a boxer called Sergio Martinez, who is a sensational fighter, a great athlete and great boxer,” said Beristain. “I believe he is the best Argentinean technical boxer I have ever seen and they took away his title in a stupid manner. Sulaiman says, ‘You are so good that you will be the ‘emeritus champion.’ And he left the title he had won and they gave it to ‘Julito.’ That, sir, is exposing himself to another lawsuit like the one that German boxer won against him, Graciano Rocchigiani. [Rocchigiani] sued [Sulaiman] in New York, won the lawsuit and [the WBC] have to pay [Rocchigiani] [31] million dollars.” Beristain is referring to a former WBC light heavyweight champion who won a vacant version of the belt in 1988 against Michael Nunn. The WBC stripped him shortly thereafter for no reason other than their claim that it was an interim belt and that Roy Jones Jr. was the “real” champion at the time. When the WBC claimed that they would have to fold and file bankruptcy, Rocchigiani settled for $31 million. There is a theory that this is why there are so many WBC belts now. With so much debt to pay, more belts equal more sanctioning fees.

“[Sulaiman]’s making that business because it brings him a lot of money,” said Beristain. “He’s very clever. He’s very smart. I think it is wrong because it has proliferated a lot that the sanctioning bodies try to bring to their safe- the famous sanctioning fee.”

Beristain also feels that this won’t end when Sulaiman is no longer with us. After all, his son Mauricio is next in line to inherit that particular throne. “His son is worse. Right now, he’s worse,” said Beristain. “That’s a family business.”

I asked Beristain if he felt Martinez could sue the WBC or if he even would. “I do not think so because Martinez, every time there is a festival in Mexico, Sulaiman invites him and [Martinez] comes and eats with [Sulaiman],” answered Beristain. “He could sue but Martinez’s manager, Sampson [Lewkowicz], seems to be afraid of [Sulaiman].” While we were on the subject of Martinez, we asked Beristain what he thought of him, considering his earlier comment about him as a technician.

“Freddie Roach [trainer of Pacquiao, Chavez Jr. and middleweight contender Peter Quillin] recently told me that he felt Martinez was a good athlete but not a good boxer,” said Beristain. I asked him, “Do you agree?”

“No way. Have [Roach] throw ‘Julito’ [Chavez Jr.] in with [Martinez],” he answered. “That man beats them both, Julio and the guy from Guadalajara [Alvarez] the same night. And while you’re at it, throw Sulaiman in to him too and [Martinez] beats him too. He is very good, very good, very good. You know, he knocked Williams out with a lot of ease, with a counterpunch that I had not seen in years. He zeroed out a punch that came from this side (motioning from his own left side); [Williams] is a southpaw and saw the punch coming, switched to this side and at the same time through a hook and it was over. It is very difficult to coordinate those movements. The only person I have seen do it is Hopkins.”

No one in the room seemed to disagree. If any of us did, we kept silent. After all, who would argue with a man Bernard Hopkins calls “Master”?

Luckily for us, we asked Beristain about James Kirkland and his thoughts on a possible match-up with Angulo in a future that is now certain. “He’s a brawler, throws a lot of punches, strong, but doesn’t [pay attention to defense],” said Beristain. “If [Kirkland] fights ‘Perro,’ it will be a brawl. He’s very strong but he can’t take punches on his chin and ‘Perro’ can take punches on his chin. I think it would be a very tough fight, fast, fast. If ‘Perro’ surprises him, he will knock [Kirkland] out.”

Then Beristain paused and added after some thought, “The only thing I don’t like too much about Alfredo- and I will talk to him when I have a chance- is that he’s exaggeratedly confident in his endurance. He comes and receives punches that he could duck but he doesn’t.” As with everything with Beristain, if you ask him one thing, he will answer but has a few good stories leading to- and from- the answer. When we asked him simply how many champions he had, Beristain answered, “22. 20 men and two females. I do not like to train women. I don’t like it because they are fierce but you are training and training and training and they are in great physical condition and then they have their period and everything is spoiled.”

We all laughed and nodded that we understood and had never even thought about it. On the flipside of that, Beristain said he believed for all his fighters, both male and female, that abstinence was key.

For a fighter to have sex during training, “It is a stupidity,” said Beristain. Nacho told us that when he was inducted into the Hall of Fame last year, he felt he needed to do something special to feel worthy of the honor and he did just that. Right before the induction, Beristain added two more champions to his résumé. “I was told in December 2010 that I was going to be inducted into the Hall of Fame and I kept thinking I have to do something,” said Beristain. “I have to get into the Hall of Fame with something notable, something to justify that I am there. In January, we were told about the featherweight world championship fight, Jhonny Gonzalez vs. [Hozumi Hasegawa] that was the champion in Kobe [Japan]. Everybody told us not to go because of the radiation. I said, ‘Let’s go.’ Kobe is in the South of Japan and [the nuclear disaster] happened in the North. We got there and we won the championship. We arrived in Mexico and I had to leave to Veracruz because the female fighter was fighting for the world championship seven days after. She won the championship. One championship was [won] on April 8 and the other on April 15. So I got into the Hall of Fame with two world champions and I was very pleased.”

Then Nacho rolled into his champions specifically.

“I had Guty Espadas. His dad was very good and they were the first father and son pair to be world champions,” said Beristain.” The first fighter that retires undefeated in all his career with over 27 world championship fights, Ricardo Lopez, the first pair of brother world champions in two divisions, the Marquezes. In the Hall of Fame, they didn’t say for the 20 world champions but because Ricardo Lopez is in the Guinness [Book of] World Records for the first father and son pair to be world champions, the two brothers. Juan Manuel Marquez won the world championship in February. 15 days later, his brother won the world championship. Vice versa, when Juan won the super featherweight title, his brother won the super bantamweight [title] with 20 days of difference. I think God overdid it with me. I don’t tell Him anything anymore so He continues to give me champions.”

At the mention of God, Beristain was reminded of a story.

“I will tell you an anecdote,” Beristain began, “The worst bantamweight world champion I have had would tell me, ‘Don’t worry. I just spoke to God and He told me I will win in four rounds in Japan and in the fourth round…’” Beristain trailed off to indicate the fighter won by KO in the fourth. “In another fight, I tell him, ‘Hey what happened? Did you talk already with whom you were going to talk [meaning God]?’ He told me, ‘No, no, I haven’t been able to.’ The next morning he said, ‘Done. I already talked to Him. In the eighth round.’ And in the eighth...He was an Indian. In another fight he told me, ‘Hijole, He told me that I will have a very tough, very tough fight but that I will win.’ It was a terrible, terrible fight in Korea. He was going to win a split decision and he won a split decision. He left me with my mouth open. One day, I told him, ‘Hey, have you already talked with [God]?’ He told me, ‘Not yet.’ I said, ‘When you talk to Him, tell Him about me, güey, so he help me!’ He said, ‘No, no because you are a son of a bitch and He will send me to hell! You reprimand me a lot and yell at me a lot.’”

At this, Beristain simply smiled knowingly as we all laughed. Beyond having boxing smarts, what I have noticed about trainers is that they all have the ability to tell the hell out of story. Beristain was no exception.

I asked who the fighter was to which he responded with yet another story. “Victor Rabanales,” Beristain answered. “He was an Indian. In Japan, they made a TV special of him and they asked him on the interview, ‘Are you a pure Indian?’ See, there are people who are mixed. He said, ‘No, I am pure Indian.’ [The interviewers] were killing themselves laughing because they said, ‘Hey, over there in your tribe. How many times can you get married?’

“Four,” Rabanales replied.

“How is your wife called?”

“The first one is called Angela.”

“And the second one?”

“Angela.”

“And the third one?”

“Angela.”

“And the fourth one?”

“Angela. It’s Angela One, Angela Two, Angela Three and Angela Four, so I don’t [confuse them].”

“He became the idol of the Japanese,” said Beristain. “They made him dance one of his tribe’s dances. They were fascinated. Japanese people admire Indians a lot.”

The mention of Japan prompted one of us to mention that the mariachis in Japan were some of the best he had ever heard.

“Yes, and that’s because you haven’t heard the ones in Paris,” said Beristain. “The Mexican music, mariachis are [excellent]. I was very surprised in Paris because I found one of my nephews there in Paris. It was snowing and we were invited to a dinner. I said, ‘No, I can’t take out my fighter.’ It turned out the owner of the restaurant we were invited to was my nephew and the girls that dance topless in the poles go there for dinner. The place is in Paris and is called, "Ay Caramba," very famous.”

As the evening began to close, we asked Nacho about the future. Did he have a new prospective champion and how could he tell when he had one?

“It’s a bit difficult,” answered Beristain. “This kid, I am bringing him up with care because I estimate that next year, he will be solid to fight for a world championship. He’s very good. You will see my welterweight soon, Alejandro Barrera. You will find him in the computer. 21 fights, 21 wins, 19 knockouts but he is not a puncher. He is rather like Juan [Manuel Marquez], connects one, two, three blows. He’s a fine boxer. Just that he gets the chance because right now, he has a tourist visa and I don’t like to bring boxers [to the U.S.] with tourist visas.”

A trainer is like a gold miner, sifting the silt to find the treasure. It can take a lifetime. Some trainers are never blessed with a champion. Others find one and are brought many more because of him. Others like Beristain have dedicated their lives to creating them from the raw materials they find. One would think that cultivating 22 champions is the goal of a lifetime. For Beristain, it is not quite enough. I asked him in finality when he will be done with boxing.

“When I die,” he answered with a smile and not a beat missed. “I set myself a goal to have 25 world champions. I am still missing three more and it is very difficult. After that, I could [retire]. I should have 25 already because the Olympic flyweight champion in 1968 could not be world champion because the manager he had was a fool and wanted to put him against the best [too soon, too fast]. Then I had like five fighters that were ranked but didn’t get to win. I should have 30 world champions. Now I hope to win three more to complete 25- and goodbye.”

With that we all rose, took some pictures with Nacho and walked out to the street. We were all in our own respective little worlds, processing what we had just experienced. It’s not often you get to meet a legend and ask him whatever you want. It was a bit like watching a great movie or performance. Each of us was somehow changed and made better by the experience. It is one I will never forget and will forever be grateful to the boxing gods for.