12 year old develops app

moycullen14

http://www.waterfordchamber.com/index.php/about-waterford/1199-12-year-old-waterford-boy-develops-game-on-app-store

Heard this on Drivetime this evening. Made me think.......

First off, fair play to the lad. Some achievement for a largely self taught developer. Also well done to parents and anyone helped him on his way. I hope it's successful.

It does have some resonance - that might not be so encouraging - for software professionals:

When I started programming in the 80s, it was said that the first line of code cost a million dollars - that was the investment required for a serious development infrastructure. If the mobile revolution has done anything it has levelled the playing field - not only in terms of development - but sales, marketing, distribution and support. The capital cost in getting an app distributed (not just developed) today is measured in hundreds of dollars. A 12 year old in Waterford is operating in the same environment as a multi-million dollar startup in Silicon Valley.

Anyone who has done any programming for the iphone knows that Objective C, iOS, Xcode, etc. are far from trivial pieces of software. Yet such is the wealth of support resources out there, it is possible for people with no formal training to become effective programmers in a short space of time. What does this do to programming/development as a career? Does it cheapen it?

Knowledge has become very broad but very shallow. It's not important how much you know, it's what you know and knowing where to find things. Is there any programming problem that can't be solved by, say, stackoverflow?

A well educated western developer - with all the attendant costs - is competing not only against highly skilled people in less expensive areas but also less experienced, younger - and hence cheaper - resources. Does the mobile app revolution render all previous skills obsolete in that market? Is a 14 year old with 3 years experience and 10 apps published more marketable than an IT professional with 15 years experience and an honours degree?

Does our 12 year old developer cheapen the profession? Don't people think that if a 12 year old can do it, it can't be that hard? And aren't they right?

Liam Byrne

Without taking from his achievement, isn't there a platform game engine available to build on ? Or is it Sony I'm thinking of ?

Colonel Panic

I think it's a pretty good achievement for a 12 year old, but did you look at the video? I don't think there's anything to worry about re: cheapening anything!

k.p.h

I get what your saying, but really just sounds like ageism

The kid is just smart, it didn't get any easier to make an app I bet if you asked just about any other 12 year old in the country they wouldn't have a tits.

dazberry

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2012/0220/1224312045774.html

I know one of the guys involved in this and there are some very clever kids attending this too.

Fantastic that these resources and tools are available to kids/teens these days, I remember back in my teens in the 80s it was just so difficult to get information/tools/resources, never stole but did a lot of begging and borrowing... Sir Clive was truly a pioneer!!!

D.

k.p.h

In relation to, but maybe not directly related to this.

Dose anyone else think it's about time the government and educational authorities to pull the plug on all the humanities(that's what they call it) being taught in this country and concentrate on science.

Leaving cert students in this country mostly pick Biology and Geography outside the core subjects, I just think it's a cop out. Along with Irish and French I can't get my head around all the useless bull being taught to young Irish people.

Not that the above mentioned subjects don't have any merit, but when they are used to skirt around subjects like Physics and Chemistry and with computing being completely ignored..!Computer Science is an after thought, but it would be so easy to set up a curriculum that could have students coming out of secondary school ready to go in college and not have 12 months of introductory concepts.

If I had my way I would have Maths, Physics, English, Chemistry being compulsory subjects, but alas it's probably just easier to teach them to say "I live in a house" in French.

I think the Coder Dojos are a brilliant idea, coding and being creative and solving problems are acquired skills and not the perceived natural talent as some people would have you believe. If you plant the seed and get these kids thinking that way young who knows what they could achieve.

conor.hogan.2

No, not cut back on humanities but they should be pushing Science (CS, Engineering etc) courses for college level.

fergalr

moycullen14 wrote: »

http://www.waterfordchamber.com/index.php/about-waterford/1199-12-year-old-waterford-boy-develops-game-on-app-store

Heard this on Drivetime this evening. Made me think.......

First off, fair play to the lad. Some achievement for a largely self taught developer. Also well done to parents and anyone helped him on his way. I hope it's successful.

Obviously take drivetime or whatever with a grain of salt. Could well just be the product of an app creation kit; the people on the radio aren't going to be able to really assess its merits.

Either way, stuff great for the kid, fair play.

moycullen14 wrote: »

It does have some resonance - that might not be so encouraging - for software professionals:

When I started programming in the 80s, it was said that the first line of code cost a million dollars - that was the investment required for a serious development infrastructure.

I had a C64 as a kid in the 80s, and I don't think my first line of code cost a million dollars.
I'd have got mine in the late 80s as a young kid, when they were quite popular, and much cheaper than when they were released.

Wiki tells me C64s were released in 1982 for $600.

Yes, its not 'serious development infrastructure', but its on par with making your iphone apps.

There was less access to information.
Having the internet, which is available now, changes things a lot.

moycullen14 wrote: »

If the mobile revolution has done anything it has levelled the playing field - not only in terms of development - but sales, marketing, distribution and support. The capital cost in getting an app distributed (not just developed) today is measured in hundreds of dollars. A 12 year old in Waterford is operating in the same environment as a multi-million dollar startup in Silicon Valley.

Its true that costs of distribution have gone way down, for videogames.

That doesn't mean that the silicon valley startup is operating in the same environment as the waterford kid, though.

This was on hacker news recently, and is worth a read, as food for thought:
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3606892

moycullen14 wrote: »

Anyone who has done any programming for the iphone knows that Objective C, iOS, Xcode, etc. are far from trivial pieces of software. Yet such is the wealth of support resources out there, it is possible for people with no formal training to become effective programmers in a short space of time.

Sometimes I wonder about this; but I think its still hard for people with no formal training to become efficient programmers. I think even with the best resources in the world, it takes time to learn to program effectively.

Maybe people, that can bring something else to the table (great design, great domain knowledge, etc) and only need a tiny bit of programming, can now do that tiny bit of programming themselves; that can make a big difference.

moycullen14 wrote: »

What does this do to programming/development as a career? Does it cheapen it?

Doesn't seem to, so far.


I think that maybe many more people will learn to be programmers, in the next 10 years.
You'd expect that eventually, this will lead to a decrease in the value of development skill, because of the increase in supply.

But at the moment, it seems that we are still uncovering the true size of the software industry, and haven't yet come close to the point where we have 'enough' programmers:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903480904576512250915629460.html


Also, 'Sparks', on this forum, makes an interesting argument about how, in future, society will need a lot more programmers than we currently have, to deal with the maintenance burden of critical software.

moycullen14 wrote: »

Knowledge has become very broad but very shallow. It's not important how much you know, it's what you know and knowing where to find things. Is there any programming problem that can't be solved by, say, stackoverflow?

Yes, loads of problems.

Stackoverflow is great at answer little pieces of language lawyer trivia.
"How do I do thing X, in language Y?"

But programming has never been about that, really.
Its about managing complexity, understanding systems, conceptualizing solutions to problems, all those other things that SO doesn't help with. etc

If you've been programming since the 80s, you know this?

moycullen14 wrote: »

A well educated western developer - with all the attendant costs - is competing not only against highly skilled people in less expensive areas but also less experienced, younger - and hence cheaper - resources. Does the mobile app revolution render all previous skills obsolete in that market?

Come on, its only a few API changes; its still your standard form of imperative programming, mvc, same patterns of encapsulation, maybe a little OO, still a lot of drawing stuff on screen.
Its hardly a change at all. If anything, its just a step back 10 years.

moycullen14 wrote: »

Is a 14 year old with 3 years experience and 10 apps published more marketable than an IT professional with 15 years experience and an honours degree?

No, not even close, not unless our IT professional has being wasting their time for 15 years.


Is it a serious question?
Are you just looking for a big reaction?


Actually, I think online access to formal education (elite university CS lectures) will have as much an effect, for people who want to continually learn, and skill up, as access to app distribution environments.

moycullen14 wrote: »

Does our 12 year old developer cheapen the profession?

No, of course not.

Fair play to the kid, they've got a good base to start from.

By the time they are finished college, and have a few years experience, assuming they keep up the good work, they'll be good at what they do.

And, I guess, that will make the profession look good.

moycullen14 wrote: »

Don't people think that if a 12 year old can do it, it can't be that hard?

Doesn't matter what people think. In the current marketplace, supply and demand will soon correct any such misapprehensions.

moycullen14 wrote: »

And aren't they right?

No.

srsly78

I fail to see what the fuss is about. Loads of us would have been writing code when we were kids. I wrote lots of basic on the vic20 and c64. Of course we couldn't distribute this software, and the hardware was quite limited compared to todays stuff. And of course we didn't have computers in schools

p

k.p.h wrote: »

In relation to, but maybe not directly related to this.

Dose anyone else think it's about time the government and educational authorities to pull the plug on all the humanities(that's what they call it) being taught in this country and concentrate on science.

Nope. Humanities help us understand people, science helps us understand things. Both are important, and complimentary.

p

moycullen14 wrote: »

Does our 12 year old developer cheapen the profession?

Nope, but it might cheapen what you can get paid if you don't up your game to compete with these digital natives

Atomic Pineapple

To be fair most software developers would have been able to code something like that in there teens, maybe not at twelve but with the resources available making a game like that would not take great amounts of effort, its hardly original or polished is it?

Its great that someone at 12 is able to get into this and make some apps but its hardly news worthy.

Creamy Goodness

it's news worthy now only because the Irish media are playing catch up with the whole tech industry. It's about time too.

Fad

k.p.h wrote: »

Dose anyone else think it's about time the government and educational authorities to pull the plug on all the humanities(that's what they call it) being taught in this country and concentrate on science.

That would be awful on so many levels

k.p.h wrote: »

Leaving cert students in this country mostly pick Biology and Geography outside the core subjects, I just think it's a cop out. Along with Irish and French I can't get my head around all the useless bull being taught to young Irish people.

No, it's playing the game, the LC isn't about learning, it's about getting CAO points. While I can understand you have problems with Irish (Dont agree with you, but anyway), I dont understand the problems with learning French, I think learning a foreign language is invaluble...

k.p.h wrote: »

Not that the above mentioned subjects don't have any merit, but when they are used to skirt around subjects like Physics and Chemistry and with computing being completely ignored..!Computer Science is an after thought, but it would be so easy to set up a curriculum that could have students coming out of secondary school ready to go in college and not have 12 months of introductory concepts.

If I had my way I would have Maths, Physics, English, Chemistry being compulsory subjects, but alas it's probably just easier to teach them to say "I live in a house" in French.

Dont really get this bit tbh.

Firstly, physics and chemistry are markedly harder than most LC subjects (conceptually at least, chemistry requires and awful lot of wrote learning too).

It wouldn't be easy to set up a cirriculum, you'd have to set one up that all schools have the facility to teach.... and ffs, most universities aren't so hot at introducing ****, never mind the department of education.....

[/slightly irrelevant rant over]

BostonB

The LC is mainly a means to access how well you can learn. This then is used to see if you are suitable to a job or college course etc. What the subjects are is largely irrelevant to that aim other than some are harder than others. If you bring other objectives into it, enjoying learning, life skills, humanities etc, that's a slightly different objective. Also some people have a natural affinity/aptitude for some subjects more than others.

The Corinthian

moycullen14 wrote: »

When I started programming in the 80s, it was said that the first line of code cost a million dollars - that was the investment required for a serious development infrastructure. If the mobile revolution has done anything it has levelled the playing field - not only in terms of development - but sales, marketing, distribution and support. The capital cost in getting an app distributed (not just developed) today is measured in hundreds of dollars. A 12 year old in Waterford is operating in the same environment as a multi-million dollar startup in Silicon Valley.

Completely incorrect, I'm afraid. What, more correctly, the Internet and later the mobile Appstore have done is levelled the playing field where it comes to access to a shop front. Where it comes to the marketing and, ultimately, net sales, of your product or service, the playing field is anything but level.

Of course, your app could be good. And without any significant marketing get noticed by a review or tech news site. It could be that one in a million that becomes a viral Internet sensation. You could also win the Lotto - those are the odds on that happening unless you invest in marketing.

Otherwise, you're going to be spending a lot of money on marketing; one rule of thumb I've heard is double the development budget. It may well be more and this is just so you stay in the game, as it were.

Without this, your app could independently and organically become the 'next big thing', but the reality is that it will most likely become yet another well-written app with under 1,000 downloads.

Anyone who has done any programming for the iphone knows that Objective C, iOS, Xcode, etc. are far from trivial pieces of software. Yet such is the wealth of support resources out there, it is possible for people with no formal training to become effective programmers in a short space of time. What does this do to programming/development as a career? Does it cheapen it?

I don't know. I'm not sure Objective C is any harder than Sinclair BASIC was (especially if you consider the different environments and lack of on-line resources back then) to a young and interested mind. And there was no shortage back in the eighties of kids the same age writing such programs in BASIC, machine code or using some of the compilers that were out there for the Spectrum, Commodore and all the rest.

But the whole "a kid will do the same work for a Mars bar" line has been around for a while. Ryanair used to proudly tell everyone how they got their extremely successful site designed by a couple of students for £10k. In reality, said students only did the design, while the clever stuff - the e-commerce booking engine, set Ryanair back around £1m.

So does such an achievement by this kid cheapen programming as a profession? Of course it will, with anyone who doesn't actually know what software development actually entails.

Such businesses and organizations will hire a few kids who will be in over their heads, then several months and a 5,000% budget overrun later (still with no stable release in sight) they'll finally call an SOB like me who'll fiscally sodomize them to fix it all.

Is there any programming problem that can't be solved by, say, stackoverflow?

Loads, unfortunately.

A well educated western developer - with all the attendant costs - is competing not only against highly skilled people in less expensive areas but also less experienced, younger - and hence cheaper - resources. Does the mobile app revolution render all previous skills obsolete in that market? Is a 14 year old with 3 years experience and 10 apps published more marketable than an IT professional with 15 years experience and an honours degree?

Young people are cheaper. On a project, you may need one senior programming resource to troubleshoot or mentor a team of five, ten or more, but that's about it and it's been like that for a while now.

This means that if you're a programmer in your twenties, you're probably better off not being one by your forties unless you've Asperger syndrome and can still compete for those extremely complex gigs that only a handful of people can do. Or you work in a job for life (academia or civil service).

Otherwise you need to develop your career for that day.

fergalr

k.p.h wrote: »

In relation to, but maybe not directly related to this.

Dose anyone else think it's about time the government and educational authorities to pull the plug on all the humanities(that's what they call it) being taught in this country and concentrate on science.

Honestly, that is a very immature line of argument.

Its hard to know where to start.


What do you think of this guy talking about taking classes on calligraphy:
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/june15/jobs-061505.html

Or this guy talking about studying painting:
http://www.paulgraham.com/hp.html


Do you reckon they were wasting their time?

k.p.h wrote: »

Leaving cert students in this country mostly pick Biology and Geography outside the core subjects, I just think it's a cop out. Along with Irish and French I can't get my head around all the useless bull being taught to young Irish people.

The leaving cert education process leaves an awful lot to be desired.
Its possible to go through it, grade well, and learn very little.


That isn't a good justification for a general attack on the humanities, though, any more than you would attack science, as a whole, just because creationism was thought in your particular science class.

k.p.h wrote: »

Not that the above mentioned subjects don't have any merit, but when they are used to skirt around subjects like Physics and Chemistry and with computing being completely ignored..!Computer Science is an after thought, but it would be so easy to set up a curriculum that could have students coming out of secondary school ready to go in college and not have 12 months of introductory concepts.

If I had my way I would have Maths, Physics, English, Chemistry being compulsory subjects, but alas it's probably just easier to teach them to say "I live in a house" in French.

Why chemistry, anyway?
My memory of leaving cert chemistry was that it wasn't a very good course; too much rote learning and procedure.

I'd have loved some classes on critical thinking, philosophy, instead.

Came across this recently:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Baccalaureate

sounds like a really interesting exam and curriculum.
Check it out, even has CS options.

Think I'd have loved something like that.


So yeah, I agree there's a lot thats broken with the leaving cert; but I don't agree with attacking humanities, in general; loads of good stuff to be learned in the humanities.

k.p.h wrote: »

I think the Coder Dojos are a brilliant idea, coding and being creative and solving problems are acquired skills and not the perceived natural talent as some people would have you believe. If you plant the seed and get these kids thinking that way young who knows what they could achieve.

Hope they go well; hard to see how you'd scale that model to the general curriculum, though.

Companion box

Not to take anything away from the kid, he's done a lot more than what i was doing with computers when i was twelve.

However for the record the app was developed through game salad(http://gamesalad.com/) a "drag and drop" HTML 5 framework, built specifically for producing games. Hence very little objective C or even Xcode interaction would go into a project like this, you are essentially creating structure through linking visual elements in their builder.

Respect the work for what it is and put silly questions like "cheapen the profession?" aside.

shanemangan

We can expect to see alot more young people creating apps etc. with these coderDojos popping up all over the country, its a fantastic initiative. Check them out here http://coderdojo.com/

leex

So does such an achievement by this kid cheapen programming as a profession? Of course it will, with anyone who doesn't actually know what software development actually entails.

A self taught 12year old will never have the knowledge background in structured coding and techniques that an experienced (and most of the time formally trained) person will. At the end of the day quality will suffer. The end product (to the user) may look similar but the efficiency of the application will not be comparable at all.